Page 5 of 5 FirstFirst 12345
Results 81 to 98 of 98

Thread: SHiV (Shadow-Hollow-Vine)

  1. #81
    Bald. Bearded. Moderator.
    Mr. Safety's Avatar
    Join Date

    Nov 2010
    Location

    New Gloucester, Maine, USA
    Posts

    4,888

    Re: SHiV (Shadow-Hollow-Vine)

    I definitely suggest you work towards a standard Hogaak list, it sounds right up your alley.

    Permanents I want to be able to deal with maindeck: Oko, Marit Lage, Batterskull, Chalice of the Void, Ensnaring Bridge, Dreadhorde Arcanist, Tarmogoyf. In g1 we really should only need a hiccup, a speed bump to outrace. G2-3 we are already pre-boarded (Borrower) for Leyline of the Void and we can focus on having better answers to other issues. That's what I posit anyways, will test and get back. I have always used the philosophy that maindeck cards need to be generally good while sideboard cards should be specifically good. That means Brazen Borrower maindeck, generally a good tempo play against any permanent, while having Abrupt Decay sideboard, specifically good against counterspells, Chalice of the Void, Rest in Peace, and Grafdigger's Cage.

    One key part of tactics for this deck that I haven't explored yet is using Reanimate on my opponent's creatures; I simply haven't faced a matchup where that would be relevant (reanimator, show and tell.) Without removal I don't really see creatures in the graveyard from RUG Delver or Death and Taxes except maybe post-board. I think this needs to be explored a little more, with the intent of using discard/removal to enable stealing opponent's threats. Dismember is back on the testing schedule.

    I also want to see if Darkblast can do some work, specifically in the Elves/Goblins/Death and Taxes matchups. It's less conditional than Sickening Dreams but doesn't deal with bigger creatures as well. With Borrower maindeck I might have room for Darkblast in the sideboard.

    I have also found a way to worm in Force of Will, which is pretty huge considering the weak matchup against fast combo decks I have experienced so far (Storm specifically but Doomsday seems particularly bad.) Thoughtseize into Daze is decent, but the combo decks are so resilient now that having only 1-2 disruptions, one of them being Daze, isn't enough.

    New list:

    4x Putrid Imp
    4x Death's Shadow
    4x Street Wraith
    4x Hollow One
    4x Vengevine
    3x Bloodghast
    4x Prized Amalgam
    2x Brazen Borrower
    1x Hogaak, Arisen Necropolis

    4x Careful Study
    4x Once Upon a Time
    3x Thoughtseize
    3x Daze
    2x Reanimate

    4x Polluted Delta
    3x Misty Rainforest
    2x Verdant Catacombs
    3x Watery Grave
    1x Breeding Pool
    1x Bayou

    Sideboard
    4x Force of Will
    1x Mindbreak Trap
    2x Surgical Extraction
    1x Cabal Therapy
    2x Abrupt Decay
    1x Nature's Claim
    1x Karakas
    1x Sylvan Library
    2x Darkblast


    Testing Darkblast over Sickening Dreams, which seems relevant specifically against D&T with their Wasteland/Port package. I may only have 1 land available and I need an instant-speed way to deal with threats when I get Port-ed. I'm also putting together a sideboard plan with this list specifically in mind, because I think it's pretty close to finished (for long-term testing that is, not finished in the final sense.) Land count is good, haven't really had problems with that. Disruption maindeck is better without sacrificing threat density. I have additional ways to utilize the graveyard outside of self-recurring creatures (Reanimate, Hogaak.) Finally, I have a sideboard that should work through most hate and present enough threats to power through.
    Last edited by Mr. Safety; 10-23-2020 at 09:02 AM.
    Brainstorm Realist

    I close my eyes and sink within myself, relive the gift of precious memories, in need of a fix called innocence. - Chuck Shuldiner

  2. #82

    Re: SHiV (Shadow-Hollow-Vine)

    Tried abit of the standard hogaak list but i find it to not be as explosive compared to SHIV (maybe that's why the comparison with Oops all spells xD). Although overall it grinds really well and better angles of attack.
    SHIV is really fun with some pretty nutty openings, so i really hope it can evolve into a competitive deck after much tuning.

    Anyway, darkblast deals really well with alot of the creatures that can disrupt attacks/ gameplan early. It also fits well with how it double dips on synergy with the deck's discard/gy strategy.
    I will try to play with the list as well since it has went through some changes like MD 2x borrowers and double reanimate with hogaak.
    If you have done any testing with the SB especially with 4xfow, please share !!! It will be interesting to find out if the deck can afford the 2for1 protection without compromising too much gas since it doesn't have any extra draws.

  3. #83
    Bald. Bearded. Moderator.
    Mr. Safety's Avatar
    Join Date

    Nov 2010
    Location

    New Gloucester, Maine, USA
    Posts

    4,888

    Re: SHiV (Shadow-Hollow-Vine)

    Quote Originally Posted by Blacksummer View Post
    Tried abit of the standard hogaak list but i find it to not be as explosive compared to SHIV (maybe that's why the comparison with Oops all spells xD). Although overall it grinds really well and better angles of attack.
    SHIV is really fun with some pretty nutty openings, so i really hope it can evolve into a competitive deck after much tuning.

    Anyway, darkblast deals really well with alot of the creatures that can disrupt attacks/ gameplan early. It also fits well with how it double dips on synergy with the deck's discard/gy strategy.
    I will try to play with the list as well since it has went through some changes like MD 2x borrowers and double reanimate with hogaak.
    If you have done any testing with the SB especially with 4xfow, please share !!! It will be interesting to find out if the deck can afford the 2for1 protection without compromising too much gas since it doesn't have any extra draws.
    I was losing even against 'bad' combo decks like Ruby Storm in testing. Because we aren't favored we need to mulligan to disruption g2-3 anyways because we just can't race fast enough (reliably.) Force of will and Mindbreak trap get us to 18 blue cards, so it should be reasonable. I haven't tried any postboard games against the faster decks yet, it's on my agenda. We may not have extra draws, but we we have a lot of velocity. In the combo matchups we really only need a couple fatties, like a Hollow One and Shadow, to close the game quickly once we disrupt.
    Brainstorm Realist

    I close my eyes and sink within myself, relive the gift of precious memories, in need of a fix called innocence. - Chuck Shuldiner

  4. #84
    Bald. Bearded. Moderator.
    Mr. Safety's Avatar
    Join Date

    Nov 2010
    Location

    New Gloucester, Maine, USA
    Posts

    4,888

    Re: SHiV (Shadow-Hollow-Vine)

    A 4-color hogaak list just took 1st at a small event:

    https://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=27850&d=420965&f=LE

    What this tells me is that it may be possible to squeeze in red for Faithless Looting and sideboard cards. Pyroblast, Abrade, Pyroclasm, and Lightning Bolt are all worth looking at for the sideboard. Even if this doesn't work out perfectly, I like losing the Amalgams for additional Looting effects. With more lootings I will be able to dig into more lands as well, which makes Bloodghast easier to trigger as well. Hard-casting Bloodghast isn't the worst for triggering Vengevines either.

    Scrap it all, the mana is horrible. They get away with it because of having 18 lands. I can't play 18 lands. Back to Bloodghast/Amalgam/bug mana-base.
    Last edited by Mr. Safety; 10-27-2020 at 12:02 PM.
    Brainstorm Realist

    I close my eyes and sink within myself, relive the gift of precious memories, in need of a fix called innocence. - Chuck Shuldiner

  5. #85
    Bald. Bearded. Moderator.
    Mr. Safety's Avatar
    Join Date

    Nov 2010
    Location

    New Gloucester, Maine, USA
    Posts

    4,888

    Re: SHiV (Shadow-Hollow-Vine)

    Potentially testing these cards soon:

    Lingering Souls
    Haunted Dead


    Haunted Dead triggers Prized Amalgam and is an enabler. I know that 2-mana enablers aren't perfect, although Lotleth Troll is close to being as good as possible at 2 mana. However, Haunted Dead is both enabler and threat, feeding both halves of the interaction (discarding Vengevines/Amalgams) while being a threat themselves. It seems to be *ok*, and I honestly think Bloodghast is likely just better, period. However, it's an interesting card.

    Lingering Souls would be pure value, I would play a single Godless Shrine for the white half and have a 2-mana token generator that is nicely put into the graveyard. It makes the deck a little grindier, which may not be a bad thing. It's a pet card that I am always trying to cram into graveyard-value decks.
    Brainstorm Realist

    I close my eyes and sink within myself, relive the gift of precious memories, in need of a fix called innocence. - Chuck Shuldiner

  6. #86

    Re: SHiV (Shadow-Hollow-Vine)

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Safety View Post
    Potentially testing these cards soon:

    Lingering Souls
    Haunted Dead


    Haunted Dead triggers Prized Amalgam and is an enabler. I know that 2-mana enablers aren't perfect, although Lotleth Troll is close to being as good as possible at 2 mana. However, Haunted Dead is both enabler and threat, feeding both halves of the interaction (discarding Vengevines/Amalgams) while being a threat themselves. It seems to be *ok*, and I honestly think Bloodghast is likely just better, period. However, it's an interesting card.

    Lingering Souls would be pure value, I would play a single Godless Shrine for the white half and have a 2-mana token generator that is nicely put into the graveyard. It makes the deck a little grindier, which may not be a bad thing. It's a pet card that I am always trying to cram into graveyard-value decks.
    Hey Safety, sorry i have been away for awhile. Got to play abit this couple of days on your list with bloodgast/almagrams.
    I think the list is fine as it is, the only thing that i feel should be improved on is how to have shadow stay in play on T2.

    1)Haunted dead is interesting card that enables amalgram and makes 2bodies, i think it has the potential if we are able to pay for the discard 2 without losing any valuable cards in hand.
    We only have so much to discard and after the initial discards, our hands are usually pretty tight, only holding onto a daze/land/OUAT or a shadow etc...By itself it does not contribute to the initial careful study/imp discard package.
    I think if we want to try it, we have to pair it with things like call to the netherworld/village rites to mitigate our hand resource lost.
    It could also bring the deck in another direction whereby we can explore dropping green altogether and just focus on almost all black creatures which then again can allow us to play something like ichorid which is a solid 3/1 haste beatdown.

    2)I actually had a couple of games today against Rug/Snowko and i did not play any OUAT at all, either did not have in opening or drew it later and did not have the mana/time to play it. So i think it is possible to drop OUAT and drop green. If so, we can pick up red for the best enable faithless looting and sb pyroblast.

    3)I did not like bloodghast tbh, as i feel throughout the game we do not have enough lands to keep bringing it back, usually win or lose, i end the game with 1or2lands.

    4)So basically Haunted dead + Call to netherworld + village rites + ichorid can come in 1 synergistic package, that way we have multiple plays:
    -Netherworld to bring countered imp back to hand, or cast or discard DS early at 13+life to enable hollow one/venge while getting DS back later with haunted dead >netherworld madness> DS etc...
    -Another 3/1 haste ichorid to bring amalgram back...tbh many decks cannot actually handle 3/1 + 3/3 early.
    -Possibility of playing lingering souls with a white source since dropping on green. (i really like lingering souls too, its a killer against control decks previously, not so much with uro now, but still a good card to utilise)
    -Possibility of playing white hate in sb/2x karakas.

    4x Putrid Imp (possible faithless looting / insolent neonate/ Kovikan Horror?)
    4x Death's Shadow
    4x Street Wraith
    4x Hollow One
    4x Vengevine
    3x Prized Amalgam
    3x Haunted Dead
    3x Ichorid (possible flamewake pheonix?)

    4x Careful Study
    4x Call to the Netherworld (possible faithless looting?)
    3x Thoughtseize
    3x Daze
    2x Village Rites (possible faithless looting?)
    1x Reanimate


    4x Polluted Delta
    3x Misty Rainforest
    2x Verdant Catacombs
    4x Watery Grave
    1x Underground Sea (possible blood crypt / steamvents?)


    Sideboard
    4x Force of Will
    1x Mindbreak Trap
    2x Surgical Extraction
    1x Massacre (DnT on the rise now)
    2x Brazen Borrower
    1x Submerge
    1x Karakas
    2x Feed the Swarm (Life lost !!!)
    1x Darkblast
    ***Add red for pyroblast / Shenenigans?
    Last edited by Blacksummer; 11-05-2020 at 08:16 AM.

  7. #87
    Bald. Bearded. Moderator.
    Mr. Safety's Avatar
    Join Date

    Nov 2010
    Location

    New Gloucester, Maine, USA
    Posts

    4,888

    Re: SHiV (Shadow-Hollow-Vine)

    Yeah, without Cabal Therapy and Undiscovered Paradise Bloodghast becomes the worst creature in the deck. I think with Reanimate in there I can safely cut a Bloodghast to make room for more utility cards.

    Cutting Once Upon a Time seems counter-intuitive because it's a super-powerful card in opening hands. I do like the idea of playing Faithless Looting instead, because most of my best games revolved around multiple Careful Study's. I really like the idea of playing Pyroblasts in the sideboard, and possibly Abrade. If we cut to 3 Bloodghast and only play 3x Faithless Looting, cutting the green lands altogether, then we can get some interesting options in there like Vengeful Pharaoh or even support something like another Hogaak. Reanimating Hogaak has been a pretty solid play so far, which would happen more often with more lootings. I can't help but think that somehow, some way, I can cram Lightning Bolt in here...at the most I could play 2, and I don't know if I even have that much room.

    The white splash doesn't seem to offer much more than green did, other than Lingering Souls. I do like the idea of white sideboard cards, but I don't know which we would play. Swords to Plowshares? I think Dismember fits our plan better. Karakas doesn't need white mana, and is a solid addition regardless (slightly less reliable without free OUAT's.) I'm leaning towards red, because Lingering Souls just isn't enough. I think we can fight the blue-stew decks with Pyroblasts and other options.
    Brainstorm Realist

    I close my eyes and sink within myself, relive the gift of precious memories, in need of a fix called innocence. - Chuck Shuldiner

  8. #88

    Re: SHiV (Shadow-Hollow-Vine)

    I am online testing out both the UB and Grixis version now...tweaking around

    1)By the way curious about the vengeful pharaoh inclusion, any reason? Because i think most of the time we are the ones attacking and opponent holding back to block, hardly get games where opponent are clocking us (only those where we have already lost and way behind in CA or our board removed)

    2)Same here, i don't think white provides enough materials for us to work with, and with white sb cards, most of the effects are symmetrical and hate on our own deck.

    3)Got to test out bolts too, not sure if they provide enough for the deck, they not creatures or enablers, so might not have space for it.

    ***Note to self for tmr, to test out wasteland/pithing needle/edicts/seal of removal.
    Last edited by Blacksummer; 11-05-2020 at 01:22 PM.

  9. #89
    Bald. Bearded. Moderator.
    Mr. Safety's Avatar
    Join Date

    Nov 2010
    Location

    New Gloucester, Maine, USA
    Posts

    4,888

    Re: SHiV (Shadow-Hollow-Vine)

    If only playing UB, what are you replacing OUAT with? Brainstorm? It would definitely make playing sideboard Forces a cinch.

    Rough Grixis list:

    4x Putrid Imp
    4x Death's Shadow
    4x Vengevine
    4x Hollow One
    4x Street Wraith
    4x Prized Amalgam
    4x Bloodghast
    2x Hogaak

    4x Careful Study
    4x Faithless Looting
    3x Daze
    3x Thoughtseize
    2x Reanimate

    4x Polluted Delta
    3x Scalding Tarn
    1x Marsh Flats
    3x Watery Grave
    1x Blood Crypt
    1x Steam Vents
    1x Swamp

    Sideboard
    3x Pyroblast
    1x Mindbreak Trap
    1x Cabal Therapy
    1x Karakas
    2x Abrade
    2x Surgical Extraction
    2x Brazen Borrower
    1x Dismember
    2x Darkblast


    If I were to play a straight UB version I would do this: -4 Faithless Looting +4 Brainstorm. Sideboard would be -3 Pyroblast, -2 Abrade, +4 Force of Will, +1 Engineered Explosives.

    EDIT: Finished list, no more open slots.
    Last edited by Mr. Safety; 11-06-2020 at 10:13 AM.
    Brainstorm Realist

    I close my eyes and sink within myself, relive the gift of precious memories, in need of a fix called innocence. - Chuck Shuldiner

  10. #90

    Re: SHiV (Shadow-Hollow-Vine)

    I was playing the UB list below the whole day yesterday. I think this has been the smoothest list i played so far, not having to worry much about wastelands and green source. Suprisingly it did really well for me, even better than the hogaak version.
    I won almost all my RUG/UR/UB delver, DnT, 4c matchups only losing 1-2 reanimator depths and 0-2 TES.
    Although some of the card choices look questionable eg.Memnite/Call to the Netherworld/Village Rites, there is just so much synergy between the cards.

    -Memnite provides so much speed and it basically replaces lotus petal in the form of 1/1 and a creature trigger for vengevine. Think about it, main reason for lotus petal was trying to get 2x 1cmc creature into play in a single turn to enable venge and then amalgram. Memnite combined the "1mana" and "creature" together into a single card. Also not to underestimate a 1/1 body against control's empty board, with hollow/venge/imp in play the threat density adds up.

    -Call to the netherworld was always a card i wanted to try out but couldn't get it going because of card space / black creature density. I really like it after the testing, it smooths out the sequencing for careful study /imp discards, ensuring card parity and can even bring imp back.
    i even had a game where i mulled to 5 OTP and still managed to win via the following play
    T1 Fetch + imp
    T2 Shockland into cycled wraith, discard netherworld, take back wraith & cycle again it to draw into hollow one, cast hollow + death shadow holding up daze, basically presented 7power on board with daze up against opponent with 1land in play. Drew into another fetch next turn, brought total power up to 10 and opponent conceded.

    -Ichorid is one that im still unsure of, i tested both Haunted Dead + Ichorid. I felt Haunted dead to be too slow and i never had the chance/opening to cast it. Ichorid's performance varied quite abit, sometimes i just sits in GY because nothing to bring him back. Sometimes u drop street wraiths and he comes back and bring along his amalgram friend. If i were to cut Ichorid, i would replace it with either bloodghast or Skyclave shade or mixture with Gurmag, i am liking Shade better because of it's "You may cast it from your gy" which plays well with venge and also 1more power. Again Shade would play well with Memnite here to bring venge back.

    -Village rites is just pure gas against any STP decks, and digs well in g2/g3 against combos for sb pieces.

    -SB wise i think it is possible to play wasteland, maybe 1+1 main/sb, it just buys so much time against things like depths and generally the deck running on UB can play with just 1land.
    I actually did not really side much, usually bringing only Darkpact /surgical /Snuff out against delver/4c decks, because our main is just so good against them already. Against nonblue fair decks like DnT, it's funny to see them waste so much time casting things like containment priest/RIP/cage couple of turns into the game, i guess it abit of brewer's advantage. The rest of sb i think can be dedicated to combos/chalice hate.


    4x Putrid Imp
    4x Death's Shadow
    4x Street Wraith
    4x Hollow One
    4x Vengevine
    3x Prized Amalgam
    3x Memnite
    3x Ichorid

    4x Careful Study
    4x Call to the Netherworld
    3x Thoughtseize
    3x Daze
    2x Village Rites
    1x Reanimate


    4x Polluted Delta
    3x Misty Rainforest
    2x Verdant Catacombs
    4x Watery Grave
    1x Underground Sea


    Sideboard
    4x Force of Will
    1x Mindbreak Trap
    2x Surgical Extraction
    1x Massacre
    2x Brazen Borrower
    1x Submerge
    1x Karakas
    1x Thoughtseize
    1x Snuff out
    1x Darkblast

  11. #91

    Re: SHiV (Shadow-Hollow-Vine)

    I will try to play the Grixis list when i have the time again.
    I think the list will more or less be the same as what you mentioned but i want to try flamewake pheonix + Insolent Neonate.
    SB as well, pyros, abrade/ sheneigans...maybe ingot chewer instead because of synergy with vengevine and avoid taxing effects.

  12. #92
    Bald. Bearded. Moderator.
    Mr. Safety's Avatar
    Join Date

    Nov 2010
    Location

    New Gloucester, Maine, USA
    Posts

    4,888

    Re: SHiV (Shadow-Hollow-Vine)

    Yes, I would definitely look to Ingot Chewer before Shenanigans, for both Vengevine and Reanimate synergy. Insolent Neonate is likely just worse than Hapless Researcher, simply for Force of Will reasons. It's also a draw/discard rather than a discard/draw, which is a strict upgrade.

    Flamewake Phoenix seems a little too weak, honestly. I think if you have room for Phoenix then you have room for better options. I have 2 free slots at the moment, and I'm really trying hard to figure out which cards to include. If you're looking for 'pay R, speed up your clock' then Lightning Bolt makes more sense. Phoenix won't trigger Vengevines with it's activated ability and we won't be hardcasting it with the 1RR cost. If we already have Vengevine or Hollow One to trigger Phoenix, I think we would be better off just adding more velocity or interaction (which this decks could always use more of.)

    For the UB version, I think Ichorid is probably not correct. You need targets for Call to the Netherworld in your graveyard and Ichorid takes them away. Dredge uses Ich profitably because they have just so many cards in the graveyard it's an easy cost to pay, and every turn nets more Zombies with Bridge from Below. Without Bridges I think Ichorid is likely better as Hogaak, or maybe even Stinkweed Imp. Imp only having dredge 5 instead of 6 like GGT isn't really a bad trade for a black creature that can also fairly reasonably be cast at 3 mana. Being a flier in the Depths matchup isn't a bad upside as well. Imp helps to cast Hogaak as well, which I think will still be a decent addition to the deck.

    I've been really digging into Vintage Hollow-Vine strategy, simply because it's the closest simulation of what we're trying to do. We don't have Bazaar but we have Street Wraith, Careful Study, and Putrid Imp to simulate it a little slower. That deck also uses Memnite and Basking Rootwalla for free creature plays to trigger Vengevines. The other part of the deck, that we can't utilize, is all of the free Forces (aside from Force of Will out of the board.) Because we need more cards to do a single card's work (Bazaar) we don't have room. The other card that is always in the back of my brain is Bazaar Trademage. I think maybe, just maybe, we could use it if we played Village Rites. It's a creature to trigger Vengevine (pro), it's a draw/discard outlet (pro), and it plays Hollow One for free (pro.) The biggest issue is that it costs 3 mana (con!) So we would need a way to cheapen the cost, either with Lotus Petal or simply reanimating it (which is an option now that we have Reanimate as part of the strategy.) Village Rites would offset the card disadvantage we get from it, but now we would be playing a 2-card 'bad' combo. I think we have better options, and Village Rites seems to be good all on it's own. I think it's a sideboard card that comes in against Swords to Plowshares/blue stew.

    So maybe: -3 Ichorid, +1 Hogaak, +2 Stinkweed Imp

    Sideboard: -2-3 (something), +2-3 Village Rites

    EDIT: I think you should be playing Brainstorm over Call to the Netherworld. I know it has synergy and does it's thing, but Brainstorm would be insanely good at pulling everything together even better. Brainstorm is boring but better, if that makes sense. If only playing UB I don't think you can find a better option, except maybe Hapless Researcher (which is debatable.)
    Brainstorm Realist

    I close my eyes and sink within myself, relive the gift of precious memories, in need of a fix called innocence. - Chuck Shuldiner

  13. #93

    Re: SHiV (Shadow-Hollow-Vine)

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Safety View Post
    Yes, I would definitely look to Ingot Chewer before Shenanigans, for both Vengevine and Reanimate synergy. Insolent Neonate is likely just worse than Hapless Researcher, simply for Force of Will reasons. It's also a draw/discard rather than a discard/draw, which is a strict upgrade.

    Flamewake Phoenix seems a little too weak, honestly. I think if you have room for Phoenix then you have room for better options. I have 2 free slots at the moment, and I'm really trying hard to figure out which cards to include.
    On Grixis
    Ah, i didn't know Hapless Researcher exist, could give that a try for more creature+cycling.
    I dunno about flamewake either, just want to have something that i can cast from the grave or make use of the grave, currently i'm more skewed toward 2xskyclave shade+1angler (maybe even tombstalker)

    With the Grixis-Hogaak list you posted, i would want more ways to enable land drops and after getting wastelanded since it want access to 3colors, it was one of the big drawback when playing BUG with OUAT, i was quite often stuck trying to draw into 2nd land after wasted or brick on a 1lander opening, so maybe brainstorm is good, but then again, with so few shuffle effects(7) i would consider going either preordain or ponder.
    Otherwise, +1 bloodghast +1looting since digging and trying to get stuff into the gy, having a body for convoke is never bad while playing hogaak.

    Instead of bolt, i would try vexing devil, i know many hate it but with such a fast deck and creature trigger + 4dmg it might actually be good.

    On UB
    I agree on that ichorid is bad, it just doesn't run enough stuff into the grave to bring it back, instead maybe to try on skyclave/angler.
    I really need to try out brainstorm...it has been on our shelve and not actually being tested xD
    Hapless will come in once testing shows that UB doesn't get enough discard outlets or cycle effects but so far it is still ok.

    On Vintage
    I had the same sentiments while watching vintage hogaak list play. But it's just too far away, 4xbazaar is basically an equivalent of legacy delver running ancestral recall and treasure cruise. I tried to improvise but it is impossible, 0mana D2D3 every turn and 3mana D2D3 once is just totally different card. Maybe if it was 3mana Bazaar Tradepost, an enchantment that allow D2D3 everyturn, we can try it.

  14. #94
    Bald. Bearded. Moderator.
    Mr. Safety's Avatar
    Join Date

    Nov 2010
    Location

    New Gloucester, Maine, USA
    Posts

    4,888

    Re: SHiV (Shadow-Hollow-Vine)

    When I was testing with Faithless Looting before, I would often get flooded actually. I was playing 4 Careful Study/4 Street Wraith/4 Once Upon a Time/3 Faithless Looting. I had zero problems with finding lands. I know that cutting OUAT will make a significant difference, but I think with 4 each of Study/Wraith and 3 Lootings I should be able to pull together 2+ lands in every game, even in the face of Wasteland. I was tempted to cut to 12-13 with the first setup, the velocity was insane, and I always had ways of triggering Bloodghast. I think it watered the deck down too much though, without enough gas to actually make powerful plays. I also feel that because we can actually flash back Looting that 3 copies should be enough. Fourteen lands pluse 7 lootings/4 Wraiths seems pretty good. However, I tend to agree on 4th Looting/4th Bloodghast for my 2 open slots. My experience is that my best games involved 2 or more Careful Study, so maximizing that effect seems smart, and with that much velocity I won't miss land drops for Bloodghast.

    EDIT: I've tested Brainstorm, in a version that played Gurmag Anglers and Lotus Petals. It was really consistent at making turns 2-3 Anglers + Shadow but it didn't reliably get Vengevines and Hollow Ones. I figured, at that point in time, that if that was the case I would rather just play traditional UB Shadow due it doing roughly the same thing. In your UB version I think replacing Call to the Netherworld with Brainstorm seems like it should be correct, along with cutting Ichorid for Hogaak + Stinkweed Imp or some mix of Bloodghast/Stinkweed. Gurmag just isn't going to cut it here, not without the removal and maindeck Forces that UB Shadow has to make it work. We need something bigger (Hogaak) and we can't afford Forces main because we want Hollow One + Vengevine.
    Brainstorm Realist

    I close my eyes and sink within myself, relive the gift of precious memories, in need of a fix called innocence. - Chuck Shuldiner

  15. #95

    Re: SHiV (Shadow-Hollow-Vine)

    Couldn't wait so i put together the Grixis list and gave it a go (6games, eldrazi, UR delver,Grixis delver, cloudpost, hogaak, Bant Joreal control )
    It did poorly.

    Initial testing feels kind of weak, the decks puts out bloodghast+amalgram very consistantly, however when it comes to vengevine, it becomes so awkward, the sequencing tends to clashes alot between discarding this 3creatures while getting hollow one into play.
    Also, once the choice is made, the latter seems to get stuck and becomes dead card until you managed to draw into another suit enabler which takes ages to put together.
    I can't really explain it properly, not sure if you have met similar situations. This happens mostly on T2/T3.
    There isn't enough delve fuel in the grave if Hogaak gets bounced or countered, which is similar problem i met with the BUG version.
    Alot of the games i was able to represent threat with bloodghast/amalgram then into DS but could not finish off opponent in time <===now i know why you want Temur battle rage LOL !!!

    I can't really pinpoint the problem or difference between UB and Grixis.
    Maybe you can give the UB version a try and see if you can get any good results. I feel that the difference may just be variance, but maybe you can spot something.

  16. #96
    Bald. Bearded. Moderator.
    Mr. Safety's Avatar
    Join Date

    Nov 2010
    Location

    New Gloucester, Maine, USA
    Posts

    4,888

    Re: SHiV (Shadow-Hollow-Vine)

    That's a good initial response for the red splash, so the next question becomes this: how do we accomplish a strictly UB version? The natural places to look are Brainstorm and Hapless Researcher. The other option is to increase threat count, increase disruption count, or a mix of both. Because we only have 8 discard outlets (Study, Imp) I think it makes sense to look to some way to increase consistency to find those outlets. Hapless Researcher seems like the natural addition. I think I'll pick up a set and test it out; it ticks off a lot of boxes because it's a discard outlet, it's a creature, and it's a cycle effect for Hollow One. The other option is to just go back to Once Upon a Time, which was one of the reasons there were still busted t1's.

    Once we cut the Lootings I think playing Hogaak/Bloodghast gets a little worse. So I think we cut to 3 Bloodghast, cut down to 0-1 Hogaak, and find a way to add more gas. As I stated above, Stinkweed Imp is an option, but there must be other options as well.

    Collective Brutality
    Sickening Dreams
    Mausoleum Secrets

    I'm particularly interested in Mausoleum Secrets; it can grab Reanimate, Thoughtseize, Putrid Imp, or Death's Shadow at instant speed as long as I have 1 creature in the graveyard (easy to achieve.) It might be enough to pull together the game plan. I think it's unreliable past 1, simply because we don't have any 2-3 mana cards (nor the mana) to pull off tricks like that. However, it does grab silver bullet sideboard cards like Darkblast, Cabal Therapy, Surgical Extraction, or possibly Fatal Push. It seems pretty solid to me as a way to replace Once Upon a Time. OUAT cost 2 mana but didn't necessarily get exactly what you need in the mid-game; this will get exactly what we need. I think it could be a way to offset mana-flood, and set up big turn 3's. We just have to cycle a Street Wraith, cast this at opponent's EOT for Putrid Imp, then go off. It's a way to functionally play more copies of Putrid Imp while still being flexible. Secrets combos with Hapless Researcher as well (the creatures don't need to be black in the yard, just the card you are fetching needs to be black.)
    Last edited by Mr. Safety; 11-09-2020 at 11:49 AM.
    Brainstorm Realist

    I close my eyes and sink within myself, relive the gift of precious memories, in need of a fix called innocence. - Chuck Shuldiner

  17. #97
    Bald. Bearded. Moderator.
    Mr. Safety's Avatar
    Join Date

    Nov 2010
    Location

    New Gloucester, Maine, USA
    Posts

    4,888

    Re: SHiV (Shadow-Hollow-Vine)

    Hapless Researcher/Mausoleum Secrets list:

    4x Putrid Imp
    4x Hapless Researcher
    4x Death’s Shadow
    4x Vengevine
    4x Hollow One
    4x Street Wraith
    4x Prized Amalgam
    3x Bloodghast
    1x Hogaak, Arisen Necropolis

    4x Careful Study
    3x Daze
    3x Thoughtseize
    2x Reanimate
    2x Mausoleum Secrets

    4x Polluted Delta
    3x Misty Rainforest
    2x Verdant Catacombs
    3x Watery Grave
    1x Swamp
    1x Island

    Sideboard
    1x Cabal Therapy
    2x Surgical Extraction
    4x Force of Will
    2x Brazen Borrower
    1x Darkblast
    1x Karakas
    1x Mindbreak Trap
    1x Dismember
    2x Sickening Dreams


    I think there must be more silver bullets we can work into the list for Mausoleum Secrets to grab. Extirpate, Fatal Push, Dread of Night, Slaughter Pact, all come to mind. I don't want to rely on 2-mana spells (or higher CMC's.)
    Last edited by Mr. Safety; 11-12-2020 at 04:44 PM.
    Brainstorm Realist

    I close my eyes and sink within myself, relive the gift of precious memories, in need of a fix called innocence. - Chuck Shuldiner

  18. #98
    Bald. Bearded. Moderator.
    Mr. Safety's Avatar
    Join Date

    Nov 2010
    Location

    New Gloucester, Maine, USA
    Posts

    4,888

    Re: SHiV (Shadow-Hollow-Vine)

    I tried the Hapless Researcher list last night, got a few test games in. It isn't looking great. I haven't drawn Hapless Researcher or Mausoleum Secrets yet so I haven't really gotten a strong hold on how they perform. I have created some insane board states, but not as fast as the OUAT list was doing. Secrets, if drawn, was live for tons of powerful plays so I think it will be good moving forward. However, I will give it a minimum of 30 games before I decide what to change. The next step is to try Brainstorm in the Hapless Researcher/OUAT slots.
    Brainstorm Realist

    I close my eyes and sink within myself, relive the gift of precious memories, in need of a fix called innocence. - Chuck Shuldiner

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)