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Thread: Long term impact of easily splashable one sided hate on card draw and tutor/fetching?

  1. #1

    Long term impact of easily splashable one sided hate on card draw and tutor/fetching?

    [CMR] Hullbreacher 2U
    Flash
    If an opponent would draw a card other than the first one this turn, you instead get that many treasure tokens.
    3/2

    One sided effect = it's an auto include as long as the meta is full of cantrips.

    Basically, Brainstorming when your opponent has open mana now mandates that you have Force backup and could win a counter war. Otherwise, you risk getting absolutely blown out.

    [CMR] Opposition Agent 2B
    Creature — Human Rogue
    Flash
    You control your opponents while they’re searching their libraries.
    While an opponent is searching their library, they exile each card they find. You may play those cards for as long as they remain exiled, and you may spend mana as though it were mana of any color to cast them.
    3/2

    One sided effect = it's an auto include as long as the meta is full of fetchlands and tutor effects.

    Basically, fetching or playing any tutor effect when your opponent has even a single open black mana (due to dark ritual) now mandates that you have Force backup (or Thoughtseized them the same turn). Otherwise, you risk getting blown out.

    Step 1: Every single deck and their mother is going to play the above cards. These effects hate on far too much of the current format not to see heavy play, as they set your opponent back significantly and also give you extra mana when used.

    Step 2: Once these cards reach critical mass, they will either get banned or they permanently alter the meta. What happens next?

    Will decks consider actively avoiding playing cantrips, tutors and fetchlands as they can only safely use those effects if they have Force backup?

    Will the meta become friendlier to fetchless multicolored decks and mono colored noncombo decks?

    Will chalice stompy decks get better than ever?

    Will multicolored decks start cutting fetchlands and increase the number of dual lands?

    What do you think the longterm impact on legacy will be?

  2. #2
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    Re: Long term impact of easily splashable one sided hate on card draw and tutor/fetch

    Looks like they found a way to ban fetchlands and Brainstorm without banning fetchlands and Brainstorm.

    i.e. it's still viable for those who want it, but may not automatically consume 70% of the meta because there could be actual downsides to playing it over playing a non-Xerox shell. One of the problems with brewing in Legacy is that most new cards and combos just work better in a Xerox shell than in a non-Xerox shell. Every time I try to brew a new combo deck, the development tilts towards "gets better with 4x FoW 4x Brainstorm 4x Ponder 8x blue fetch". Maybe format diversity will increase if Xerox shells aren't always strictly better.

  3. #3

    Re: Long term impact of easily splashable one sided hate on card draw and tutor/fetch

    Quote Originally Posted by FTW View Post
    Looks like they found a way to ban fetchlands and Brainstorm without banning fetchlands and Brainstorm.
    Anything that hurts b storm/fetches gets the thumbs up from me. I like these two very much, but they're still niche...limited stompy deck use I bet.
    Quote Originally Posted by Laser Brains View Post
    With the printing of Gigantosaurus, Thrashing Brontodon and Steel Leaf Champion the deck has evolved from good to very competitive. Anyway, give it a few play tests if you are interested and let me know what you think.

    Winter Maze
    Quote Originally Posted by CptHaddock View Post
    With veteran explorer I know that I 100% will not enjoy a 30 minute grindfest against someone who can barely afford dual lands and believes that their deck can cast a 10 mana 8/8.

  4. #4

    Re: Long term impact of easily splashable one sided hate on card draw and tutor/fetch

    How are they niche when such a huge chunk of the format plays Brainstorm and Fetchlands?

    How many days between this card becoming legacy legal and Echo of Eons getting banned?

    How much higher can dual land prices go before legacy becomes unsustainable (without stores allowing proxies for dual lands atleast)?

    Is there any possibility that Mono Blue Delver could be more than a meme deck?


    4 Delver of Secrets
    4 Hullbreacher
    2 Brazen Borrower
    2 Snapcaster Mage
    2 Back to Basics (or Narset or TNN)

    4 Force of Will
    4 Stifle
    4 Daze
    4 Ponder
    2 Force of Negation
    2 Dismember
    2 Spell Pierce
    2 Spell Snare
    2 Arcane Denial (or Flusterstorm or Submerge)

    2 Jwari Disruption
    2 Silundi Vision
    4 Wasteland
    12 Island

    I am just greatful that these cards are not mythics and that Commander Legends will be a print to demand set until early 2021. Legacy is going to absorb obscene amounts of these two cards.
    Last edited by Captain Hammer; 11-03-2020 at 01:01 PM.

  5. #5
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    Re: Long term impact of easily splashable one sided hate on card draw and tutor/fetch

    I hate these cards and all the asymmetrical effects of late - Karn, Narset, Teferi etc
    But also, why did it have to be blue???? That's really offensive
    "Want all, lose all."

  6. #6
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    Re: Long term impact of easily splashable one sided hate on card draw and tutor/fetch

    Those cards are good, but are they going to reduce the amount of BS/Fetches? Not really. Most likely they're just going to randomly fuck over the opponent in the "mirror", aka other BS/Fetches decks. Remember how Mental Misstep was supposed to fight Brainstorm, but ended up being one of the most blue formats ever?

    Quote Originally Posted by caiomarcos View Post
    But also, why did it have to be blue???? That's really offensive
    Well, they did print powerful white cards this time - just in the wrong colors.

  7. #7
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    Re: Long term impact of easily splashable one sided hate on card draw and tutor/fetch

    I do think a stompy deck with both of them would be a blast to play. A first draft . .

    4 Seat of the Synod
    4 Ancient Tomb
    2 City of Traitors
    4 Polluted Delta
    2 Snow-Covered Island
    2 Snow-Covered Swamp

    4 Hullbreacher
    4 Emry, Lurker of the Loch
    4 Opposition Agent
    3 Urza, Lord High Artificer
    2 Plague Engineer

    4 Lotus Petal
    4 Mox Opal
    3 Lion's Eye Diamond
    2 Mishra's Bauble
    2 Urza's Bauble
    4 Chalice of the Void

    2 Echo of Eons

    4 Karn, the Great Creator

    Sideboard
    4 Force of Will
    2 Plague Engineer
    1 Mycosynth Lattice
    1 Liquimetal Coating
    1 Sorcerous Spyglass
    1 Ensnaring Bridge
    1 Lion's Eye Diamond
    1 Tormod's Crypt
    3 Open
    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Safety View Post
    You sir are a ninja of fine quality.

  8. #8

    Re: Long term impact of easily splashable one sided hate on card draw and tutor/fetch

    Now every deck gets to win the game at 3 Mana!

  9. #9

    Re: Long term impact of easily splashable one sided hate on card draw and tutor/fetch

    Quote Originally Posted by Cire View Post
    I do think a stompy deck with both of them would be a blast to play. A first draft . .

    4 Seat of the Synod
    4 Ancient Tomb
    2 City of Traitors
    4 Polluted Delta
    2 Snow-Covered Island
    2 Snow-Covered Swamp

    4 Hullbreacher
    4 Emry, Lurker of the Loch
    4 Opposition Agent
    3 Urza, Lord High Artificer
    2 Plague Engineer

    4 Lotus Petal
    4 Mox Opal
    3 Lion's Eye Diamond
    2 Mishra's Bauble
    2 Urza's Bauble
    4 Chalice of the Void

    2 Echo of Eons

    4 Karn, the Great Creator

    Sideboard
    4 Force of Will
    2 Plague Engineer
    1 Mycosynth Lattice
    1 Liquimetal Coating
    1 Sorcerous Spyglass
    1 Ensnaring Bridge
    1 Lion's Eye Diamond
    1 Tormod's Crypt
    3 Open
    Tomb plus lotus...your turn .
    Quote Originally Posted by Laser Brains View Post
    With the printing of Gigantosaurus, Thrashing Brontodon and Steel Leaf Champion the deck has evolved from good to very competitive. Anyway, give it a few play tests if you are interested and let me know what you think.

    Winter Maze
    Quote Originally Posted by CptHaddock View Post
    With veteran explorer I know that I 100% will not enjoy a 30 minute grindfest against someone who can barely afford dual lands and believes that their deck can cast a 10 mana 8/8.

  10. #10
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    Re: Long term impact of easily splashable one sided hate on card draw and tutor/fetch

    Quote Originally Posted by kinda View Post
    Tomb plus lotus...your turn .
    It's a strong play!
    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Safety View Post
    You sir are a ninja of fine quality.

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    Re: Long term impact of easily splashable one sided hate on card draw and tutor/fetch

    Quote Originally Posted by Cire View Post
    I do think a stompy deck with both of them would be a blast to play. A first draft . .
    decklist
    Agent, Hullbreacher, Karn and Engineer...
    These one-sided effects have to stop.

    Soon every deck will be a hoser-deck, since the hosers are asymmetrical and beaters. Whoever sneaks a well-timed Agent or Breacher first will likely ride this advantage to victory.
    "Want all, lose all."

  12. #12
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    Re: Long term impact of easily splashable one sided hate on card draw and tutor/fetch

    Asymmetrical Stompy though is a good name
    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Safety View Post
    You sir are a ninja of fine quality.

  13. #13
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    Re: Long term impact of easily splashable one sided hate on card draw and tutor/fetch

    I was thinking these hatebears really encourage you to play a decent amount of spot removal. For decks that don't have that, it may become more important to have a simpler manabase, trying to cut a fetch or two. Maybe. I can also see discard coming back to the TES maindeck, veil doesn't hrlp against this, or maybe cmc 3 is just too slow for them to care much.. It's hard to say much, for sure.

  14. #14

    Re: Long term impact of easily splashable one sided hate on card draw and tutor/fetch

    Quote Originally Posted by Cire View Post
    Asymmetrical Stompy though is a good name
    +1.
    Quote Originally Posted by Laser Brains View Post
    With the printing of Gigantosaurus, Thrashing Brontodon and Steel Leaf Champion the deck has evolved from good to very competitive. Anyway, give it a few play tests if you are interested and let me know what you think.

    Winter Maze
    Quote Originally Posted by CptHaddock View Post
    With veteran explorer I know that I 100% will not enjoy a 30 minute grindfest against someone who can barely afford dual lands and believes that their deck can cast a 10 mana 8/8.

  15. #15

    Re: Long term impact of easily splashable one sided hate on card draw and tutor/fetch

    Stifle is already a much worse card on the draw and has basically been consigned to history at this point, you think the playability of fetchlands is going to be severely impacted by a hate card that costs 3?

    Basically, Brainstorming when your opponent has open mana now mandates that you have Force backup and could win a counter war. Otherwise, you risk getting absolutely blown out.
    Any removal spell also does the job.
    Notion Thief already exists, yes it does cost 1 more but the effect is also significantly more powerful

    Step 1: Every single deck and their mother is going to play the above cards. These effects hate on far too much of the current format not to see heavy play, as they set your opponent back significantly and also give you extra mana when used.
    You're ignoring the fact that the floor on these cards is so low in fair matchups:
    What happens if I play my cantrips and fetches turn 1-2 then play Oko?
    What happens if you pay 3 mana to try flash the Pirate in response to my Arcanist trigger and I just bolt/daze it?

    These cards aren't unplayable but outside of matchups where they can be considered legitimate hatebears (i.e. winning through the static ability is near-impossible rather than just a minor inconvenience and the deck is also not well-equipped to kill it) they aren't super exciting either. (Compare to Leo/Narset)

  16. #16

    Re: Long term impact of easily splashable one sided hate on card draw and tutor/fetch

    I don't think these ultimately make a big impact in Legacy. They cost three mana, and because of that the blowout opportunities are going to be far less common than you think when looking at them. They do nothing to actually solve the problems they aim at because the best place to play them is still, wait for it, - in a Xerox shell because they're blue and black and have flash.

    Make them white or green and cost one mana and symmetrical, and then we're talking. But this? This is preview bait garbage.

  17. #17
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    Re: Long term impact of easily splashable one sided hate on card draw and tutor/fetch

    i would like it if cards like opposition agent helped support decks that fell off the map a very long time ago, or never had a chance to exist in legacy.

    something like turn 1 unmask+pitch card + ritual + opposition agent could actually be a very strong play.

    unfortunately it's more likely that these cards will see play in the goodstuff decks, and probably in small numbers. it's nice to help slow down some of the strong combo and if there's more playing with mono color and 2 color decks, then these cards don't have a huge impact.

    at 3cc they are far from overpowered for legacy standards. if they were printing these at 2cc it would be a different story.
    -rob

  18. #18

    Re: Long term impact of easily splashable one sided hate on card draw and tutor/fetch

    Quote Originally Posted by mistercakes View Post
    something like turn 1 unmask+pitch card + ritual + opposition agent could actually be a very strong play.
    For the blue one this is just the narset/echo deck

    You could put the black one in the Curse stompy deck to make plays like this
    I don't think you want to play Unmask because the whole point of a deck like that is your opponent can't cast their spells. Playing targeted discard to also remove the spells from their hand is redundant at that point

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