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Thread: Kaldheim. It's going to have Snow. And Vikings.

  1. #281
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    Re: Kaldheim. It's going to have Snow. And Vikings.

    Quote Originally Posted by Clark Kant View Post
    Is this playable in monoblue delver?
    Not vs elves or maverick it's not. Also this gives Griselbrand pilot 7 life, and Marit Lage 1-shots you.

  2. #282

    Re: Kaldheim. It's going to have Snow. And Vikings.

    Quote Originally Posted by BenBleiweiss View Post


    COMMON?
    Blue obviously needed a Fall from Favor replacement for Pauper, because it broke the format too much and ended up banned.

  3. #283

    Re: Kaldheim. It's going to have Snow. And Vikings.

    Quote Originally Posted by Clark Kant View Post
    Is this playable in monoblue delver?
    More playable against than in

  4. #284

    Re: Kaldheim. It's going to have Snow. And Vikings.

    Quote Originally Posted by Barook View Post
    I member. But hey, blue gets everything anyway, so no surprises here.
    Its gotten to the point where the criticism eventually became a (bad) joke, and now they are hamming up the joke because they think it is funny.

  5. #285
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  6. #286

    Re: Kaldheim. It's going to have Snow. And Vikings.

    I would add Narfi, the Betrayer King to that list, not 100% sure what deck he goes in, but a 5/4 zombie/snow lord from the GY for 3 mana is definitely niche playable. Maybe Snowko? Maybe something else, in many ways he's a better version of Haakon, which has also shown up occasionally.

  7. #287

    Re: Kaldheim. It's going to have Snow. And Vikings.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Safety View Post
    Time to put together a potentially playable list of cards from Kaldheim (emphasis on potentially):
    ...
    There's some other really marginal stuff.

    I wonder if the potential life gain on Search for Glory is enough to offset the 3 mana cost. There's certainly a long list of things that it can fetch.

    Burning-Rune Demon could be a piece of a food chain combo finish.

    Crush the Weak probably won't see play, but sweepers like that aren't terrible.

    Realmwalker might work in elves.

    Does infect want Snakesin Veil over something like Blossoming Defense for the durable bonus?

    It's unlikely Vega the Watcher could be a combo or engine pieces.

    Does snowco run any of the ice duals as a fetch target?

  8. #288
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    Re: Kaldheim. It's going to have Snow. And Vikings.

    Quote Originally Posted by rufus View Post
    There's some other really marginal stuff.
    ...
    Vega the Watcher could be a combo or engine pieces.
    The best I could come up with is it draws a card every time you cast Misthollow Griffin and friends in a Food Chain loop, but being legendary is a big downside.

  9. #289

    Re: Kaldheim. It's going to have Snow. And Vikings.

    If a card that doesn't have a foretell ability otherwise gets foretold with Dream Devourer and it leaves play, is the foretold card stranded? It doesn't have a foretold cost without the Devourer in play, right?

  10. #290

    Re: Kaldheim. It's going to have Snow. And Vikings.

    Quote Originally Posted by rufus View Post
    If a card that doesn't have a foretell ability otherwise gets foretold with Dream Devourer and it leaves play, is the foretold card stranded? It doesn't have a foretold cost without the Devourer in play, right?
    I don't think they've released the official rules but it appears that being fortold is a status, and once you pay the cost they're fortold even if the Devourer is gone.

  11. #291
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    Re: Kaldheim. It's going to have Snow. And Vikings.

    Quote Originally Posted by rufus View Post
    If a card that doesn't have a foretell ability otherwise gets foretold with Dream Devourer and it leaves play, is the foretold card stranded? It doesn't have a foretold cost without the Devourer in play, right?
    This will work like Illusionary Mask; destroying the thing that introduced the rules [i.e. Dream Devourer] will not remove the rules.

    Remember that just like any face-down cards you need to *very* clearly maintain order of face-down exile. If you pick up two face-down spells and shuffle them up, you're getting a game loss. If you fail to reveal at end of game = game loss.

  12. #292

    Re: Kaldheim. It's going to have Snow. And Vikings.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fox View Post
    This will work like Illusionary Mask; destroying the thing that introduced the rules [i.e. Dream Devourer] will not remove the rules.

    Remember that just like any face-down cards you need to *very* clearly maintain order of face-down exile. If you pick up two face-down spells and shuffle them up, you're getting a game loss. If you fail to reveal at end of game = game loss.
    Huh, the template is a mess - "...Each nonland card in your hand without foretell has foretell. Its foretell cost is equal to its mana cost reduced by {2}. ..." So - even with the expected scenario - when the card gets exiled (using foretell) it doesn't have a foretell cost anymore unless the foretell cost somehow gets "locked in" at the moment that the card is exiled. Meanwhile Ethereal Valkyrie exiles the card first and then sets the foretell cost after putting it into exile, and Dream Devourer doesn't have the "even on a later turn" reminder text that Ethereal Valkyrie has.

    Suppose Ethereal Valkyrie's ability is used to foretell Struggle for Skemfar. Does it cost 1G or G to cast it from exile (maybe either is allowed)? How does it work if Starnheim Unleashed is foretold by the Valkyrie?

    In contrast, we have morph (and megamorph) and manifest (and illusionary mask) which are distinct mechanics for face-down cards.

    I guess I'll just have to see what the rules are like when they get published.

  13. #293
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    Re: Kaldheim. It's going to have Snow. And Vikings.

    The foretell action is 2 colorless mana. The "flip cost" is in the upper right of the face-down card, minus 2 colorless mana. This part is pretty clearly spelled out.

    Face-down rules are pretty easy to understand. If a card has a way to be "flipped," you can do that. So if you manifest a Stratus Dancer for example, you have 2 options: flip over for 1U or megamorph flip-over for 1U. All face-down mechanics work the way you want them to.

    Do note the template gives them: nonland cards *without* foretell get foretell. The mechanics are simple. The problem is that you better prove to your opponent that everything you're doing with hidden info is legit. Again, any lie/failure to disclose all hidden info at end of game is a straight up game loss.

    ...and if you're playing a card that gives non-foretell the foretell ability, and your deck plays even a single card with actual foretell...you better be saying where the foretell ability is coming from, and you better keep face-down exile order clearly marked.

    The problem for this mechanic is that standard and modern players can't even maintain yard order. 100% judge call if your opponent can't demonstrate that they didn't foretell a card without the ability, and then rip a guy that grants foretell to non-foretell...and then lie about foretelling in an illegal card [one with foretell printed on it] through the enabler. They shuffle anything face-down, even after a game is over they just lost.

  14. #294

    Re: Kaldheim. It's going to have Snow. And Vikings.

    Quote Originally Posted by rufus View Post
    Huh, the template is a mess - "...Each nonland card in your hand without foretell has foretell. Its foretell cost is equal to its mana cost reduced by {2}. ..." So - even with the expected scenario - when the card gets exiled (using foretell) it doesn't have a foretell cost anymore unless the foretell cost somehow gets "locked in" at the moment that the card is exiled. Meanwhile Ethereal Valkyrie exiles the card first and then sets the foretell cost after putting it into exile, and Dream Devourer doesn't have the "even on a later turn" reminder text that Ethereal Valkyrie has.

    Suppose Ethereal Valkyrie's ability is used to foretell Struggle for Skemfar. Does it cost 1G or G to cast it from exile (maybe either is allowed)? How does it work if Starnheim Unleashed is foretold by the Valkyrie?

    In contrast, we have morph (and megamorph) and manifest (and illusionary mask) which are distinct mechanics for face-down cards.

    I guess I'll just have to see what the rules are like when they get published.
    Compare it to morph: To put it face down, it's always 3, so you'll always know if your opponent is cheating the cost.
    And then face-up cost on a morph is printed on the card, same with this card using it's CMC. So when you turn it faceup everyone will know if you could pay the cost and if you couldn't (just like with morph) we go back in time and reset the card. Your opponent will know, however what the card is and you'll have to mark it somehow.
    As for Ethereal Valkyrie I think you're overthinking it: The card is foretold, it has two fortell costs and you can pay either. The angel making X card will make zero angels if you don't pay an X, and since no matter which cost you pay it will have been fortold you should pay the X cost.

  15. #295

    Re: Kaldheim. It's going to have Snow. And Vikings.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fox View Post
    The problem for this mechanic is that standard and modern players can't even maintain yard order. 100% judge call if your opponent can't demonstrate that they didn't foretell a card without the ability, and then rip a guy that grants foretell to non-foretell...and then lie about foretelling in an illegal card [one with foretell printed on it] through the enabler. They shuffle anything face-down, even after a game is over they just lost.
    Are people doing this with Manifest and morph?

  16. #296
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    Re: Kaldheim. It's going to have Snow. And Vikings.

    Quote Originally Posted by FourDogsinaHorseSuit View Post
    Are people doing this with Manifest and morph?
    Keeping track of order and revealing at end of game - yes. In terms of people playing a manifest enabler and also having cards with morph in same deck - no.

    Edit: the other thing that doesn't happen with morph/manifest is not knowing how the card is getting to the battlefield. If you have that 0/3 enabler guy + card with foretell in hand + card without foretell in hand you absolutely must tell your opponent how the card is getting to face-down exile - i.e. you must make it clear that "this card l am putting into face-down exile does not have foretell printed on it, and I am using the 0/3 dude to do it" vs "this card has foretell printed on it, and I am not using 0/3 dude"

  17. #297

    Re: Kaldheim. It's going to have Snow. And Vikings.

    Quote Originally Posted by FourDogsinaHorseSuit View Post
    Compare it to morph: To put it face down, it's always 3, so you'll always know if your opponent is cheating the cost.
    And then face-up cost on a morph is printed on the card, same with this card using it's CMC. So when you turn it faceup everyone will know if you could pay the cost and if you couldn't (just like with morph) we go back in time and reset the card. Your opponent will know, however what the card is and you'll have to mark it somehow.
    I am comparing it to morph. Suppose that WotC wanted to print a morph analogue to Dream Devourer. What would the text of that card have to be like in order to work right? It certainly wouldn't be as simple as "creature cards in your hand have morph and their morph card is equal to their casting cost." That effect would allow players to cast cards face-down from the hand, but when they hit the battlefield there would be no way to turn them face-up.

    With stuff getting turned face down on the battlefield, the ability turn face-up is either printed on the card - like morph or megamorph - or it's explicitly created by the effect that makes a face-down card in play in the first place - like manifest or the illusionary mask. If something like Ixidron turns cards face-down without creating an ability or effect that turns the cards face-up, the cards are stuck face-down.

    In contrast to morph which only flips up cards that actually have morph costs printed on them, with Foretell we have a bunch of cards that have foretell costs printed on them, and two effects - Dream Devourer and Ethereal Valkyrie - that can foretell cards which don't have foretell costs printed on them. So is foretell like manifest - where the ability to flip up is set up as part of exiling the card face-down, or is foretell like morph where the ability to flip up is part of the card text, or is it some ad hoc mix of the two?

    ...As for Ethereal Valkyrie I think you're overthinking it: The card is foretold, it has two fortell costs and you can pay either. The angel making X card will make zero angels if you don't pay an X, and since no matter which cost you pay it will have been fortold you should pay the X cost.
    The text on valkyrie is " ... its foretold cost is its mana cost reduced by ...." If the text were "... it gains a foretell cost equal to ... " instead of "...its foretell cost is ..." then "paying either cost" like you suggest would make sense. (Technically, face-down cards don't have mana costs, so they'll have to make some sausage in the rules to make that part work correctly too.)

  18. #298
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    Re: Kaldheim. It's going to have Snow. And Vikings.

    I think what you're mostly talking about @rufus is being confused b/c they kinda use the same word to describe two things. Foretell seems to be used to denote putting a card face-down, and also to flip it face-up for casting. Just read the card as foretell = act of putting face-down, and "un-foretell" as flipping face-up for casting.

  19. #299

    Re: Kaldheim. It's going to have Snow. And Vikings.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fox View Post
    I think what you're mostly talking ...
    Thanks for the responses. I'll just wait for the release notes and bring this back up in the rules questions section if it's still unclear.

  20. #300

    Re: Kaldheim. It's going to have Snow. And Vikings.

    Quote Originally Posted by rufus View Post
    I am comparing it to morph. Suppose that WotC wanted to print a morph analogue to Dream Devourer. What would the text of that card have to be like in order to work right? It certainly wouldn't be as simple as "creature cards in your hand have morph and their morph card is equal to their casting cost." That effect would allow players to cast cards face-down from the hand, but when they hit the battlefield there would be no way to turn them face-up.
    ...Why wouldn't it?
    Why doesn't "Creature cards in your hand have morph. Their morph cost is equal to their CMC" fit the rules?
    With stuff getting turned face down on the battlefield, the ability turn face-up is either printed on the card - like morph or megamorph - or it's explicitly created by the effect that makes a face-down card in play in the first place - like manifest or the illusionary mask. If something like Ixidron turns cards face-down without creating an ability or effect that turns the cards face-up, the cards are stuck face-down.
    And why would this not be true of Fortell? Why are you assuming manifest explicitly creates a condition that Fortell doesn't?
    In contrast to morph which only flips up cards that actually have morph costs printed on them, with Foretell we have a bunch of cards that have foretell costs printed on them, and two effects - Dream Devourer and Ethereal Valkyrie - that can foretell cards which don't have foretell costs printed on them. So is foretell like manifest - where the ability to flip up is set up as part of exiling the card face-down, or is foretell like morph where the ability to flip up is part of the card text, or is it some ad hoc mix of the two?
    You are once again overthinking this. They didn't print a mechanic that inherently doesn't function.

    The text on valkyrie is " ... its foretold cost is its mana cost reduced by ...." If the text were "... it gains a foretell cost equal to ... " instead of "...its foretell cost is ..." then "paying either cost" like you suggest would make sense. (Technically, face-down cards don't have mana costs, so they'll have to make some sausage in the rules to make that part work correctly too.)
    Nah.

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