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Thread: Bumbleberry Pie

  1. #41

    Re: Bumbleberry Pie

    I submitted and won Brian Covalís brewing contest with this deck.

    Thanks for everyoneís help, check out how it does in a week or so.
    Last edited by H; 01-14-2021 at 08:54 AM.

  2. #42

    Re: Bumbleberry Pie

    A new history of Benalia was spoiled. This may be better than court of grace due to its higher floor (removal + guaranteed 4/4) even if its ceiling is not as insane.


  3. #43

    Re: Bumbleberry Pie

    As a maindeck card for your list I agree this _might_ be better than court of grace, I would test it

  4. #44

    Re: Bumbleberry Pie

    I mean, this could be history of Benalia 5-6. It's a bit heavy on the mana though.

    EDIT: Could this be a wincon in a Wb Pillow-fort deck?
    Quote Originally Posted by Weapon X View Post
    The only glass cannon here is the pilot.
    I play decks with a lot of white enchantments, and white isn't even my favorite color.

  5. #45

    Re: Bumbleberry Pie

    Quote Originally Posted by aedemiel View Post
    I mean, this could be history of Benalia 5-6. It's a bit heavy on the mana though.

    EDIT: Could this be a wincon in a Wb Pillow-fort deck?
    In pillow fort court of grace just seems better due to the inherent synergy with island sanctuary, moat, and Solitary confinement

    The reason to play this would be the synergy with aminatou (instant 8 power), 2 turn clock with any blink effect, and less risky to play out from behind (immediate blocker, Extra removal vs delayed blocker, possibility of losing the monarch)

    Vs Benalia this has several advantages but I canít be certain itís worth the extra mana. Flying 4/4s vs 2 2/2s seems attractive vs Marit Lage, bolt, delver, plague engineer, gy decks, dha, elves, and elks.

  6. #46
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    Re: Bumbleberry Pie

    First, congrats on winning that contest. The list you submitted looks a lot tighter than the earlier versions, more streamlined, without giving up the unique blink engine. Do you have a link to the video where he played it?

    I'm not sold on this new card. The floor is just a 4/4 token.

    Removal isn't guaranteed because the token has to actually survive for parts II and III to do anything. In a vacuum, this card may not do much. The failcase is spending 4 mana to create 1 token that trades with a 1-2 mana removal spell or turns into an Elk. The ceiling is good, but the floor is a 1WWB Serra Angel.

    The ceiling kicks in with Aminatou. If you can blink it on your mainphase, then you get 2 4/4s right away, then you kill stuff, then you can keep making 4/4s and winning. That seems pretty good. Does Court of Grace do almost as much though, with less set up? The card draw is pretty big.

    Estrid's Invocation is a bit awkward with it. It'll make a 4/4 on your upkeep, but then it goes to II on your mainphase and your token won't have haste, so you miss out on the removal ability. Estrid works better with History of Benalia, making two 2/2s a turn.

    I think the main reason History was good in other formats is having one card that produces at least 2 bodies, so your opponent is not trading 1-for-1 with it easily. 2/2s looks bad against Elks, but you make 2/2s at a much faster rate than they can make Elks, so you can threaten to go wide or just beat through with the +2/+1.

  7. #47

    Re: Bumbleberry Pie

    Thanks for the advice you gave me! He records well in advance so itís recorded but not posted rn.

    The floor is indeed a 4/4 vs removal and without engines. What is answering the Serra angel though? If itís an oko court without estrids is suicide. If they have arcanist double bolt Iím just dead with court in that situation. Vs vial plow decks introducing monarch is risky. The angel is naturally protected from coatl. Worst case is probably Snowko plows it but I am winning that mu with entreat anyways. VS uninteractive deck this does 12 damage by the time court has done 4, and doesnít just straight up lose to EoT coatl or fetch a dryad.

    Grace is way better with estrids, ahead, or vs creatureless decks,, but this has more synergy with aminatou/Yorion/3 feri and is better when behind or needing to clock.

    Iím not sure itís better but I think itís worth testing.

    Edit: I do want to try to fit a few etutors into the md. Do you think even without dedicated targets itís better than preordain just for the CB synergy? Additionally what do you think on mystical dispute vs spell Pierce? Itís better vs fair blue and Urza echo, and ups your CB 3 cmc blind flip % for free. Several games the opponent immediately conceded to a blind flip oko counter.

  8. #48
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    Re: Bumbleberry Pie

    Yeah it might be worth testing the split to see how it does. Getting a guaranteed body is nice when you're behind. Either way, I think 3 Court of Grace is too risky if you can't reliably defend the Monarch, so it may be that a split of these is better.

    What kills the 4/4? At 1-2 mana:
    Swords to Plowshares
    Fatal Push
    Bloodchief's Thirst
    Abrupt Decay
    Drown in the Loch
    Brazen Borrower
    Terminus
    Dismember
    Engineered Explosives
    Assassin's Trophy
    Stingscourger
    Munitions Expert
    Echoing Truth
    Liliana's Triumph


    At higher mana:
    Flickerwisp
    Skyclave Apparition
    Barrin, Tolarian Archmage
    Oko, Thief of Crowns
    Teferi, Time Raveler
    Liliana of the Veil
    Jace, the Mind Sculptor

    It's a 0 cmc token. It dies to any bounce, edict effect, or low cmc removal. That doesn't mean its not worth playing, but I think it is worth considering how easy it is to neutralize the token and leave the other 2 abilities dead in the water. Court wouldn't necessarily be better there if you're behind. Maybe History would? Or something different altogether.


    Edit: No, I think the earlier discussion was right, ETutor is probably not right here. You're playing a control game with an incremental value engine so card disadvantage is bad for you. It's a cool trick to do with counterbalance, countering any spell at instant speed for 1 mana while also getting a useful card, but that's not enough reason to play it.

    I do think ETutor is an underrated card, but I also use it exclusively in unfair decks where the card you get more than makes up for the card disadvantage. Tutoring for a 1-for-1 (Trial, Detention Sphere, Omen) leaves you behind in the game. I use ETutor for cards like
    Energy Field
    Serenity
    Helm of Obedience
    Underworld Breach
    Necropotence

    Mystical Dispute seems good if you have SB room. I would not run it main. Fair blue is rampant, but a significant chunk of the meta is still nonblue. As for the counterbalance blind flips, you control that by controlling your curve. Dispute doesn't necessarily fix that more than any other card would. I guess it does let you cheat in more 3 cmcs because it functionally costs 1 so it won't hurt your mana. But cards like Force of Negation and Brazen Borrower accomplish that too.

  9. #49

    Re: Bumbleberry Pie

    Great points. I agree that with so many flash flyers and haste elks terminus isnít as foolproof at defending the monarch as it used to be. So I canít support multiple courts without etutor and moat to compliment it.

    I do want to have more than 3 actual wincons though. Maybe just replace the reality acid with the saga and split pierces 3/1 with a dispute and call it a day.

  10. #50

    Re: Bumbleberry Pie

    FTW has correctly identified that the problem with the 1WWB saga is that it's easy to exploit the fact it can be just a 4 mana Serra Angel
    History has the a similar problem in this deck in the sense that it doesn't really have any synergy with the rest of what you are doing
    What this deck really wants is a nonlegendary Oath of Kaya

    I don't like E-Tutor maindeck in a deck that isn't assembling some big combo (Rip helm maybe, this kind of thing) because against efficient decks like RUG you need all of your cards to be effective and E-tutoring for a card and having it get countered is a pretty backbreaking way to 2-for-1 yourself

  11. #51

    Re: Bumbleberry Pie

    Quote Originally Posted by kombatkiwi View Post
    FTW has correctly identified that the problem with the 1WWB saga is that it's easy to exploit the fact it can be just a 4 mana Serra Angel
    History has the a similar problem in this deck in the sense that it doesn't really have any synergy with the rest of what you are doing
    What this deck really wants is a nonlegendary Oath of Kaya

    I don't like E-Tutor maindeck in a deck that isn't assembling some big combo (Rip helm maybe, this kind of thing) because against efficient decks like RUG you need all of your cards to be effective and E-tutoring for a card and having it get countered is a pretty backbreaking way to 2-for-1 yourself
    Ok, I could buy that itís too risky to turn on opponents removal.

    Etutors have moved back to the SB just to increase hate density vs unfair decks.

  12. #52

    Re: Bumbleberry Pie

    I realized I want a few 2 drops for sanctuary plus counterbalance reasons. Could Dovinís Veto replace spell Pierce? It does what I want spell Pierce to do (answer some big t3 haymaker like oko OTD through daze)

  13. #53

    Re: Bumbleberry Pie

    Quote Originally Posted by Reeplcheep View Post
    I realized I want a few 2 drops for sanctuary plus counterbalance reasons. Could Dovinís Veto replace spell Pierce? It does what I want spell Pierce to do (answer some big t3 haymaker like oko OTD through daze)
    This is fine, I like maindeck veto in uw sharkstill

    There is also a new card:

    The Raven's Warning 1WU
    Enchantment - Saga
    I: Create a 1/1 blue flying bird token and gain 2 life
    II: Whenever 1 or more creatures you control with flying deal combat damage to a player this turn, look at that player's hand and draw a card
    III: You may put a card you own from outside the game on top of your library

    Pretty interesting
    - Less mana than the 1WWB Angel one but has similar main drawback in that if you lose the token to e.g. Plow then the rest of the card becomes much less effective
    - Lifegain on the first stage is pretty good
    - Flying token -> moat
    - 3rd stage can be used as a way to find those tutor targets g1, can also do stuff like stack a terminus on top of your library or get a replenish/sevinnes to return this saga for value, set up counterbalance etc

    Has the usual Wish problem that it makes SB decisions confusing i.e. are you supposed to board your cards in so you can draw them (or E tutor for them) or leave them in the SB to wish for.

  14. #54

    Re: Bumbleberry Pie

    The smaller size and damage clause makes this a lot worse vs coatl, bolt, or even flipped delver.

    Also creatures earlier down the curve makes terminus more awkward. The wish is really interesting with an entreat the angels though.

    I could see this functioning but I think you would want to drop the miracle package for bitterblossom (lifegain covers the weakness of BB and guaranteed flyers covers the dies to bolt weakness of this)

  15. #55

    Re: Bumbleberry Pie

    boshnroll finally posted the league

    It went extremely well for a brew, and he enjoyed the games immensely.

    Props: estrids, Yorion, reality acid, and Aminatou

    Slops: spell Pierce, few generic answers to pw, entreat.

    Counterbalance performed way better than any other post top deck but he still wasnt super stoked about it.
    Not sure what the best way to deal with the pyroblast problem is though.
    Last edited by Reeplcheep; 01-21-2021 at 04:38 PM.

  16. #56

    Re: Bumbleberry Pie

    Fixed hyperlink

    It seemed that the blink engines were the best part of the deck and the miracles part was the most iffy. Perhaps cutting the miracles/cb/sanctuary package for a most focused tappout/blink list would be better. That would probably require going from UWb with pierces to UBw with discard. I probably have to lose plow to the sideboard to not have double off colour t1, but Bloodchiefís thirst could help with the pw removal problem.

  17. #57

    Re: Bumbleberry Pie

    Quote Originally Posted by Reeplcheep View Post
    The smaller size and damage clause makes this a lot worse vs coatl, bolt, or even flipped delver.
    Yeah this is probably true I think, I was dreaming it's like a History with other upside but it needs more flying support to be a decent card because otherwise by itself it's too easy for the opponent to unravel it with 1 removal/blocker

  18. #58

    Re: Bumbleberry Pie

    Jotting down thoughts from my own matches, the league and above:

    • Miracles/sanctuary/CB package was not horrible, but it introduces more low floor cards and has tension with the sorcery speed rest of the deck. Moat seems like the best option to deal with the lack of boardwipes if I cut terminus (vs fair decks I have enough spot removal, and vs elves/gaak/goblins it is better than terminus after t3 anyways).
    • The ceiling on the deck (Yorion plus aminatou blinking everything each turn) is already great and can hang with uro/library. I should concentrate on quicker interaction and high floor cards.
    • Spell Pierce is hard to hold up early and is bad late. -> discard. 3feri raises the floor on late game discard considerably.
    • I need 1 cmc interaction that is decent vs pyroblast but I want to tap out -> discard
    • I can only choose one of: double off colour t1, mystic sanctuary, lots of basics. The third option is probably the best. Due the above, I need to become base UB instead of base UW.
    • Estrids is the lowest floor 3 drop engine and baleful strix is the highest floor 2 drop blink target. I should probably switch CB/estrids for strix / 3feri.
    • Many clunky PW answers are better than a few clean PW answers vs the 6 forces 4 pyro decks. Bloodchiefís Thirst seems pretty good then to supplement strix/Oath/discard. Itís Weaknesses compared to plow are big or flash threats. Extra Karakas solves the former, discard/3feri deals with the latter.
    • None of the 3 cmc generic answer blink targets like dsphere are great, so I might as well fit the highest floor etutor targets in that slot. 3feri solves most of the nonPW threats you would want councils judgment for anyways in combination with discard.
    • I want my grindy gy cards in the same matchups as gy hate -> cut hall/sevinnes.


    List:


    4 Prismatic Vista
    4 Polluted Delta
    3 Marsh Flats
    1 Tundra
    3 Underground Sea
    1 Scrubland
    3 Karakas
    1 Snow-Covered Plains
    3 Snow-Covered Island
    3 Snow-Covered Swamp

    4 Brainstorm
    4 Ponder
    4 Bloodchiefís Thirst
    4 Thoughtseize
    2 Inquisition of Kozilek
    4 Arcumís Astrolabe
    4 Omen of the Sea
    4 Trial of Ambition
    4 Baleful Strix
    4 Aminatou, the Fateshifter
    4 Teferi, Time Raveler
    1 Moat
    1 Disinformation Campaign
    1 Reality Acid
    2 Court of Grace
    1 Oath of Kaya
    4 Force of Will
    2 Force of Negation

    4 Enlightened tutor
    1 Yorion
    1 Torpor Orb
    2 Force of Negation
    1 Damping Sphere
    3 Rest In Peace
    1 Stoney Silence
    1 Engineered Plague
    1 Sorcerous Spyglass


    This deck has a pretty cohesive plan of just tap out for a bunch of interactive spells and then use Yorion to go over the top. This isnít too different from Snowko plans of force everything, resolve library/Uro, but is both more interesting and better vs combo (hate permanents plus discard plus counters are much better than just a stack of counters).

    Mana might look a bit weird but my best T1 plays are all black, not blue. Souces (basic/non basic, not including cantrips/labe):

    • B 14/4, recommend 19.
    • U 11/7, recommend 19.
    • 2W 8/9, recommend 15
    • UWB 18/8, recommend 30.
    • 2WW 8/9, recommend 21.

    Strix plus oath seem like the lowest opportunity cost way to deal with both low loyalty planeswalkers and the surgical court problem.

    Thoughts @kombatkiwi, @FTW, @Fox, or others?
    Last edited by Reeplcheep; 01-22-2021 at 03:51 PM.

  19. #59

    Re: Bumbleberry Pie

    Miracles/sanctuary/CB package was not horrible, but it introduces more low floor cards and has tension with the sorcery speed rest of the deck. Moat seems like the best option to deal with the lack of boardwipes if I cut terminus (vs fair decks I have enough spot removal, and vs elves/gaak/goblins it is better than terminus after t3 anyways).
    Sounds good

    The ceiling on the deck (Yorion plus aminatou blinking everything each turn) is already great and can hang with uro/library. I should concentrate on quicker interaction and high floor cards.
    I would be careful about this because Omen of the Sea and the Edict enchantment are pretty clunky on their own by legacy standards and without Estrids Invo I am less sure if you have enough support to justify them. (I'm not categorically stating your new build is wrong in this regard, it's just something I would pay attention to)

    Spell Pierce is hard to hold up early and is bad late. -> discard. 3feri raises the floor on late game discard considerably.
    Yes I don't think this deck applies enough pressure to justify pierce and the Teferi point is also relevant

    I need 1 cmc interaction that is decent vs pyroblast but I want to tap out -> discard
    Ok

    I can only choose one of: double off colour t1, mystic sanctuary, lots of basics. The third option is probably the best. Due the above, I need to become base UB instead of base UW.
    Idk how to figure out a manabase for an animatou deck I'm not going to look at this and will just assume you know what you are doing

    Estrids is the lowest floor 3 drop engine and baleful strix is the highest floor 2 drop blink target. I should probably switch CB/estrids for strix / 3feri.
    Estrids has the lowest floor but also the highest ceiling, similar to my previous comment about this cut I would just try to be careful that you aren't making yourself too vulnerable to e.g. Oko by building the deck like this (i.e. if all your value engine are monarch/pw related then protecting them from elk might be hard and there aren't too many ways to deal with Oko. Again this is not something I am confident is a definite flaw but I would pay attention)

    Many clunky PW answers are better than a few clean PW answers vs the 6 forces 4 pyro decks. Bloodchiefís Thirst seems pretty good then to supplement strix/Oath/discard. Itís Weaknesses compared to plow are big or flash threats. Extra Karakas solves the former, discard/3feri deals with the latter.
    I think this is probably fine logic, main concern would be Lage/Uro but like you say you have the triple karakas

    None of the 3 cmc generic answer blink targets like dsphere are great, so I might as well fit the highest floor etutor targets in that slot. 3feri solves most of the nonPW threats you would want councils judgment for anyways in combination with discard.
    I'm actually not sure if Reality Acid is a better maindeck card than Dsphere here but it's interesting to think about

    I want my grindy gy cards in the same matchups as gy hate -> cut hall/sevinnes.
    makes sense

  20. #60

    Re: Bumbleberry Pie

    Quote Originally Posted by kombatkiwi View Post
    I would be careful about this because Omen of the Sea and the Edict enchantment are pretty clunky on their own by legacy standards and without Estrids Invo I am less sure if you have enough support to justify them. (I'm not categorically stating your new build is wrong in this regard, it's just something I would pay attention to)

    Estrids has the lowest floor but also the highest ceiling, similar to my previous comment about this cut I would just try to be careful that you aren't making yourself too vulnerable to e.g. Oko by building the deck like this (i.e. if all your value engine are monarch/pw related then protecting them from elk might be hard and there aren't too many ways to deal with Oko. Again this is not something I am confident is a definite flaw but I would pay attention)


    I think this is probably fine logic, main concern would be Lage/Uro but like you say you have the triple karakas
    These are good comments. Itís true that if I donít put enough payoff cards in the deck, my setup cards get weaker. The problem with estrids is that labe and strix are much better than the 3rd best cheap etb enchantment, which creates a risk of it being dead. Courts were iffy with the double white and up the vulnerablility to being behind on board as mentioned.

    Aminatou plus Yorion is where I go over the top of the opponent; so I tried a version focused around assembling that. That still justifies the clunky permanents and but Yorion and 3feri have higher floors. The deck feels very clean, and has a clear game plan of play a bunch of interactive permanents, cast an uncounterable Yorion, win. Dsphere was clunky, so I tried md gy hate (cling) but that conflicted with post board rips. Iím going to try Kaya Orzhov usurper. Additional wincon, lifegain, synergy instead of anti synergy with rip, nice with aminatou, keeps oko/uro/chalice under control.

    Etutor/discard continues to make the unfair matchups really good, giving you a reason to play this over snow. Thoughtseize plus rip just wrecked oops hands that would destroy Snowko (like spy, pact of negation, xantid swarm).
    Elspeth's Nightmare to be tested in the ďblink target that is decent vs decks that donít care about trialĒ slot. Compared to reality acid or disinformation campaign it interacts better vs arcanist/Uro/oko. The deck is very mana hungry so I added More lands.

    List:


    4 Prismatic Vista
    4 Polluted Delta
    2 Marsh Flats
    2 Flooded Strand
    1 Tundra
    3 Underground Sea
    1 Scrubland
    3 Cavern of Souls
    1 Karakas
    1 Snow-Covered Plains
    3 Snow-Covered Island
    3 Snow-Covered Swamp

    4 Brainstorm
    4 Ponder
    4 Bloodchiefís Thirst
    3 Thoughtseize
    3 Inquisition of Kozilek
    4 Arcumís Astrolabe
    4 Omen of the Sea
    4 Trial of Ambition
    4 Baleful Strix
    4 Aminatou, the Fateshifter
    3 Teferi, Time Raveler
    2 Yorion
    2 Kaya, Orzhov Usurper
    1 Elspethís Nightmare
    4 Force of Will
    2 Force of Negation

    4 Enlightened tutor
    1 Yorion
    1 Torpor Orb
    1 Force of Negation
    1 Damping Sphere
    1 Rest In Peace
    1 Engineered Plague
    1 Moat
    1 Graffdiggers Cage
    1 Pithing Needle
    2 Mystical Dispute


    Mana might look a bit weird but my best T1 plays are all black, not blue. Souces (basic/non basic, not including cantrips/labe):

    • B 13/9, recommend 19.
    • U 13/9, recommend 19.
    • 2W 9/7, recommend 15
    • UWB 19/6, recommend 30.


    Looking at md answers to common legacy threats:
    T2 spell combo kill: 6 counters, 8-12 t1 cantrips, 6 discard.
    Uro: 2 Kaya, 1 nightmare, 1 Karakas. Repeatable removal.
    Arcanist: gy hate above plus 12 2 cmc or less removal.
    Oko: discard, thirst, Kaya.
    Chalice: 3 Teferi, 2 Kaya, sometimes discard.
    Marit Lage: 1 Karakas, 7 flying blockers into 9 sorcery speed answers.
    Pyroblast: 3 cavern of souls, 6 discard.

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