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Thread: 12-3: Greater Good and Dreadnought combo

  1. #1

    12-3: Greater Good and Dreadnought combo

    12-3

    Having started playing Magic during Saga block I am fond of some of the obscure enchantments from 1998/99. One of these is Greater Good. I have been brewing with Greater Good and Phyrexian Dreadnought and have arrived at the shell below. It started of as something close to Nic Fit and has evolved into a TES-like deck with 26 potential green sources (casting the echantment is crucial!).


    4 Verdant Catacombs
    4 Marsh Flats
    2 Swamp
    2 Forest
    2 Bayou
    1 Cavern of Souls

    4 Lotus Petal
    3 Chrome Mox
    3 Mox Opal
    4 Dark Ritual
    4 Elvish Spirit Guide

    4 Greater Good
    4 Wishclaw Talisman
    3 Phyrexian Dreadnought
    2 Living Wish
    2 Torpor Orb
    1 Unearth
    1 Tendrils of Agony

    4 Veil of Summer
    2 Defense Grid
    3 Abrupt Decay
    1 Duress


    The game plan is easy. Assemble Greater Good, cast Dreadnought and sac it in response to its ETB trigger, drawing twelve cards and discarding three in the process (hence the title). The fast mana pretty much ensures you will be able to keep going until you can cast a lethal Tendrils. Unearth is Dreadnought #4 and the Living Wishes get the 4th Nought out of the Board and maybe a Cavern or a Vexing Shusher. There is a lot of protection, but seven of those can be imprinted on Chrome Mox for green mana. Maindeck Decay is mainly for Chalice to which your only other answer is Cavern of Souls.

    I honestly cannot tell how well this list works. I am a paper magic player and Corona doesn‘t allow much play testing. It goldfishes slower than TES and Brainstorms would be stellar but there should be some upsides:
    - There is an aggro backup plan involving Torpor Orb and Dreadnought. Sometimes powering out a trampling 12/12 on turn 1 is good enough.
    - The deck – if not under pressure – is resilient to most removal. Greater Good cannot be destroyed by Abrupt Decay and you need no other permanents to stick.
    - I think that the protection portion of this deck can be extended so that it becomes quite controllish. You could try Pernicious Deed, for example, which also removes Talismans after use.
    - The deck has style. It is like a Pete Venters tribute (Tendrils, Greater Good and Dreadnought).

    It would be great if someone was interested in this.

  2. #2

    Re: 12-3: Greater Good and Dreadnought combo

    I love weird old school shit like this. I’d have to play your build to give you advice but it seems like more Torpor Orb wouldn’t be shitty. Also, check out Eldrazi Mimic with Dreadnought.
    "WaaaauuugghhhaaaauuugghhhaauuugghhhaaauuugghhhW" -Chewbacca

  3. #3

    Re: 12-3: Greater Good and Dreadnought combo

    My record with Storm is uh...not good...but I would want an ad nauseam in the deck plus less greater good reliance. I'd trim two goods for ad nauseam and the third torpor orb. I'd cut two ESG's too for the fourth orb plus second duress.
    Quote Originally Posted by Laser Brains View Post
    With the printing of Gigantosaurus, Thrashing Brontodon and Steel Leaf Champion the deck has evolved from good to very competitive. Anyway, give it a few play tests if you are interested and let me know what you think.

    Winter Maze
    Quote Originally Posted by CptHaddock View Post
    With veteran explorer I know that I 100% will not enjoy a 30 minute grindfest against someone who can barely afford dual lands and believes that their deck can cast a 10 mana 8/8.

  4. #4
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    Re: 12-3: Greater Good and Dreadnought combo

    This is worse than Dreadstill, ReplenishStill, Landstill, and Standstill. You have correctly identified that the purpose of Dreadnought is to create a 4x potency version of the original cycle [Ancestral, Dark Rit, Salve, Bolt, Giant Growth], but this is really not the way to do this.

    Now there is no reason to ruin a manabase by adding off colors, but if you want to draw 12, we play Teferi, use [+1] and Burning Wish for Life's Legacy to get the draw 12. There is also zero reason to play do-nothing artifacts with the printing of Karn. Put the jank in the SB, we are hard control now.

    If you absolutely have to play Greater Good, build Bant SnowOko and have 1x Greater Good and 1x E Tutor and do this trick with Uro since it makes escape fodder. Now this is worse than just playing Library, but you can do it; in the same way Elves could play 2x Trop and a Stasis and be legacy's best Stasis deck.

  5. #5

    Re: 12-3: Greater Good and Dreadnought combo

    ominous seas is a similar combo with greater good you could add

  6. #6
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    Re: 12-3: Greater Good and Dreadnought combo

    Wouldn't Uro work really well with Greater Good? Draw 7, discard 3 to feed the next cast, gain 3 life, put a land into play.

  7. #7

    Re: 12-3: Greater Good and Dreadnought combo

    how is this better than resp in peace + helm of obedience ?

  8. #8

    Re: 12-3: Greater Good and Dreadnought combo

    Quote Originally Posted by adrieng View Post
    how is this better than resp in peace + helm of obedience ?
    Short answer: They are both two card combos but GG-Dreadnought costs only 5 to go off (instead of 6 or 7), is immune to Karn's static ability and cannot be stopped by Abrupt Decay. Helm combo doesn't have an aggro plan per se.

    Long answer: I'm not sure it is "better". Helm combo does not use up many slots. It can go into different shells: UW, Curse Stompy, Quinn ... It's hard to compare them all. At the core, these decks have an (anti-aggro) control plan that is coupled with a quick combo kill. However, they typically do not kill before Turn 5 (with the exception of Curses which has Rituals and Chrome Moxen). GG-Dreadnought can kill very fast.

  9. #9

    Re: 12-3: Greater Good and Dreadnought combo

    Quote Originally Posted by Fox View Post
    If you absolutely have to play Greater Good, build Bant SnowOko and have 1x Greater Good and 1x E Tutor and do this trick with Uro since it makes escape fodder. Now this is worse than just playing Library, but you can do it; in the same way Elves could play 2x Trop and a Stasis and be legacy's best Stasis deck.
    It is not that I doubt that starting with a Snowko shell leads to a strong deck, it is that I wouldn't even want to try that. Feels silly to run a one of Greater Good, "just because". If I register an Oko deck, I'm playing for the maximum win rate (I'm always playing to win, but I am also playing legacy because I like my cards). For me brewing can mean more than changing two or three slots in an existing goodstuff deck. Sometimes the result will be a pile of shit, sometimes something good and fun.


    Quote Originally Posted by Reeplcheep
    ominous seas is a similar combo with greater good you could add
    http://www.thrabenuniversity.com/?p=2519 gives the list for reference, second from the top. ThrabenU also streamed with it. If I remember correctly, he sadly didn't sac to Greater Good very often. Afterwards he said: "These four cards (3 GG and 1 Lab Maniac) were the worst cards in the deck by a lot and we always sided them out. Kind of disappointing to say."


    Quote Originally Posted by Barook
    Wouldn't Uro work really well with Greater Good? Draw 7, discard 3 to feed the next cast, gain 3 life, put a land into play.
    Yes, this works. The deck reeplcheep mentioned uses Uro.


    To all of the above: Having watched the stream with Ominous Seas I think that if Greater Good can be made to work it will not be in a Snoko pile, meaning Uro would remain excluded. However, blue for Brainstorm and Ponder might still be the route.

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    Re: 12-3: Greater Good and Dreadnought combo

    So Abrupt Decay doesn't matter to Dreadnought, never has. If people want to Fetch double-off blue vs Stifle/Wasteland/Daze, it goes badly quickly. In the case of UR, we will actively try to sinkhole an opponent's turn, having Dreadnought drag removal [and two mana] off a card like Delver, and then bludgeon them with Standstill. This was all before Scroll of Fate, which singlehandedly dismantles Decay.

    ^There's a reason this works; namely that we're combo'ing sideways [piece A + A + so many piece A's], rather than dumping everything into making 12/12s [piece A + B]. Making 12/12s is just this thing we are able to do, just one plan among many. One thing we certainly don't do anymore [unless enemy deck is linear/non-interactive] is produce 12/12s in main phases; there's no reason to let Oko see that.

    -Let's break down Greater Good: it costs 4, you are playing 4 copies, it gets worse in multiples (it's the worst card in the deck), and it costs GG in a shell that heavily favors 2c construction. If you somehow get to 4 mana and don't run into Daze, you're still doing this draw 12, discard 3 on your turn?? And discarding to hand size??
    -We're on straight-UG, and all the eggs are in the Greater Good basket...here's the things you have to be able to deal with maindeck: Hullbreacher, Leovold, Narset, Needle/Spyglass, Chalice, and Revoker. If deck construction isn't answering/bypassing these, you don't have a deck. Postboard, you better have a plan for Surgical target Dreadnought.
    -Let's look at our tools for synergy: uhh yeah...Torpor Orb and Greater Good have none. Sure wish I could tap a Scroll of Fate and flush Greater Good into something, or clear soft permission on turn 3 [right before Greater Good], and have ability to make a 12/12 on their end-step, and maybe even sac them to untap and enter a turn with 12 new looks. Why are we donating Wishclaw to opponents and not playing Karn or some way to get them back? Why are we playing 1x lands without Reclaimer?
    -Why are we playing textless hand size killers (ESG, Moxen)? Where is Ancient Tomb??? Where is Lotus Field + Stifle???

    Don't get me wrong, there is power in a strategy that puts Dreadnought on the stack and says "bleed cards now, or else," having a plan to transmute it into some kind of value without passing priority and not even allowing split second spells to do anything about it; but I don't think you get there by using Greater Good even though it checks the box that turns Dreadnought into quad-Ancestral. This is something we put on the back burner until Life's Legacy is printed as instant or Momentous Fall is printed at 2cmc.

    Always remember with Dreadnought, the question is never: how do I make a list that does the 12/12 thing?
    The question you care about is: what cards are played in legacy which would interfere with 12/12 plan, how are you answering these [while getting closer to going off - no Decay allowed, bad card that derails you further], and what are your side hustles that ignore the cards that would otherwise be problematic for the primary 12/12 plan?

  11. #11

    Re: 12-3: Greater Good and Dreadnought combo

    Quote Originally Posted by Fox View Post
    If you somehow get to 4 mana and don't run into Daze, you're still doing this draw 12, discard 3 on your turn?? And discarding to hand size??
    No, I'm not going to discard to hand size, pretty much never. The goal - and the deck does this consistently once it gets going - is to chain two or three Dreadnoughts into Tendrils. The Chrome and Opal Moxen are in the deck to a) cast GG earlier and b) increase storm count after you've drawn 12. I thought this was obvious but after reading your post I'm unsure whether I've made this clear enough. I might also be missing your point. That said, the attack phase is only a plan B for the deck. Because of this - in my view - the deck compares rather to storm combo variants than to Dreadstill.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fox View Post
    here's the things you have to be able to deal with maindeck: Hullbreacher, Leovold, Narset, Needle/Spyglass, Chalice, and Revoker. If deck construction isn't answering/bypassing these, you don't have a deck. Postboard, you better have a plan for Surgical target Dreadnought.
    Yes, these are hate cards (in addition to countermagic) that interfere with the combo. That's why Decay, Duress, Defense Grid and Veil of Summer are in the main deck as of now. That's ten cards plus the possibility of a Wish board. I consider this a lot.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fox View Post
    Why are we playing textless hand size killers (ESG, Moxen)? Where is Ancient Tomb??? Where is Lotus Field + Stifle???
    @ Stifle: Currently, the deck is GB. But as I said earlier, BUG for Brainstorm might be better.
    @ ESG/Moxen: ESG is important so you can cast GG reliably. Same goes for Moxen. Also see above: The fast mana is good before and after drawing with GG.
    @ Ancient Tomb: One of the best hands is: Swamp, Dark Rit, Petal, ESG, GG, Dreadnought. Which will probably be a T1 kill. Ancient Tomb has been awkward in goldfishing in that it doesn't cast Ritual and doesn't produce green, either.
    Last edited by Tourach; 01-03-2021 at 01:46 PM.

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    Re: 12-3: Greater Good and Dreadnought combo

    So this is how this works in legacy when you play no permission:
    -oppo lets you resolve Greater Good.
    -you cast Dreadnought, they let it resolve.
    -you sac Dreadnought -> trigger to draw 12 -> Surgical Dreadnought. You draw 12, discard 3 and lose.

    Understand that Dreadnought gets most of its pilots from people new to the format b/c the deck [UR Dreadstill] costs $1100 in extreme budget form, and can compete in the format at a far higher level than mono-U StifleNought and mono-U Delver [aka why aren't you playing Dreadnought you mono-U Stifle scrub].

    Your list is bad financial advice, unacceptably fragile, and prone to dangerously low win rates. Bad Dreadnought lists kind of poison the waters which new blood drink from. Love the interest on the archetype, dislike price:competitive mismatch.

    Dreadnoughts inexplicably jumped from $12-15 to $60ish like 2 years ago; gotta be really careful about what we're asking people to ante up.

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    Re: 12-3: Greater Good and Dreadnought combo

    Cool deck idea. Maybe consider some other cheap big creatures to take advantage of the beatdown and greater good. What is that dino for 2B? Not sure what the drawback is.

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    Re: 12-3: Greater Good and Dreadnought combo

    there's been some lists that have been worked on in premodern for the last few months. have you checked those out?
    -rob

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    Re: 12-3: Greater Good and Dreadnought combo

    I also thought this might have potential for Premodern, but Tendrils is banned. Black tutors are banned too (Vamp Tutor, Demonic Tutor, Demonic Consulation, Entomb).
    https://premodernmagic.com/

    On the plus side, the following cards are also banned: Necro, Bargain, Time Spiral, Windfall, Memory Jar, Mind's Desire, Brainstorm. That means 12-3 might be one of the best draw engines left in the format.

    Force of Will is also banned, so you just have to play around Daze/Force Spike and 2-mana counters, assuming you can find another win condition.

    Pandemonium is a silly wincon. You just need 2 Dreadnought triggers to deal lethal, and Unearth recursion helps that.

    White has Enlightened Tutor to find all the combo pieces. Argivian Find works as a makeshift Unearth that also recovers combo pieces from discard and removal.

    You could try something like this in Premodern


    //Lands: 15
    4 City of Brass
    4 Gemstone Mine
    3 Undiscovered Paradise
    4 Hickory Woodlot

    //More mana: 19
    4 Lotus Petal
    3 Mox Diamond
    4 Elvish Spirit Guide
    4 Tinder Wall
    4 Dark Ritual

    //Engine: 17
    4 Enlightened Tutor
    4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
    4 Greater Good
    3 Argivian Find
    2 Unearth

    //Protection: 7
    4 Duress
    3 Orim's Chant

    //Win Cons: 2
    2 Pandemonium

    //Sideboard:
    3 Defense Grid
    3 Swords to Plowshares
    2 Pyroclasm
    2 Cabal Therapy
    2 Disenchant
    1 Seal of Cleansing
    1 Feldon's Cane
    1 Enduring Renewal


    It's a silly glass cannon. But there's also a lot of room for protection, acceleration, and recovering pieces.

    Silence/Grid effects are used to dodge both disenchants and counters on the combo pieces.

    The SB is a mix of answers for counterspells, creature-based hate (Meddling Mage), and other permanent-based hate (Arcane Lab, Sphere of Resistance).

    Feldon's Cane lets you loot through your library a 2nd time if you need the extra gas to win. It also protects you from losing to Brain Freeze storm decks.

    Enduring Renewal is a backup engine that lets you go off without Greater Good, or when you run out of cards in library vs an opponent with high life. You basically gain the following abilities.
    G: add RR
    1: deal 12 damage to any target

    This looks fun to play in a format that tried to ban unfair decks and FoW.

    Edit: Revised duals are not legal in this format. Seems terrible. That means a rejig of the manabase from all-Forests to Rainbow lands, as well as cutting Land Grant and Orcish Lumberjack and the 4th Mox Diamond (worse without Land Grant). But then it's easier to keep black for Dark Ritual.
    Last edited by FTW; 01-16-2021 at 08:37 PM.

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    Re: 12-3: Greater Good and Dreadnought combo

    The deck has already been played in premodern, it's a little inconsistent, but it is quite strong. The win is replenish with a pandemonium and sap burst. It's posted in the FB groups and you can find it on discord.
    -rob

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    Re: 12-3: Greater Good and Dreadnought combo

    Quote Originally Posted by mistercakes View Post
    The deck has already been played in premodern, it's a little inconsistent, but it is quite strong. The win is replenish with a pandemonium and sap burst. It's posted in the FB groups and you can find it on discord.
    Do you have a link or decklist? The FB group and discords are private.

    Is it a UW Replenish PandeBurst deck, with cards like Careful Study and Attunement and Opalescence? Or does it use Tourach's Greater Good-Dreadnought engine?

    The ones I've seen are UW Replenish. Replenish is a decent deck but a completely different engine, with different vulnerabilities and strengths.

    This is more of an A+B combo. After the first draw 12 there's enough gas to keep chaining into a win. It can also just win by hardcasting Pandemonium and making Dreadnought twice. Assembling the engine is inconsistent, but it also doesn't rely on the grave as much, can run a different protection suite, and is very explosive.

    I tried out a few goldfishes.

    This version goldfishes T3 pretty consistently or T4 with protection, with the occasional T1-T2 win.
    It rarely fizzles with GG+Dreadnought, but it is more likely to fizzle in the setup phase.


    //Lands: 15
    4 City of Brass
    4 Gemstone Mine
    4 Undiscovered Paradise
    3 Hickory Woodlot

    //More mana: 17
    3 Mox Diamond
    4 Lotus Petal
    4 Elvish Spirit Guide
    4 Dark Ritual
    2 Tinder Wall

    //Engine: 14
    4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
    4 Greater Good
    2 Pandemonium
    2 Argivian Find
    2 Unearth

    //Dig: 8
    4 Enlightened Tutor
    4 Portent

    //Protection: 6
    4 Duress
    2 Orim's Chant

    //Sideboard:
    3 Defense Grid
    3 Swords to Plowshares
    2 Pyroclasm
    2 Cabal Therapy
    2 Disenchant
    1 Seal of Cleansing
    1 Feldon's Cane
    1 Enduring Renewal



    10 goldfishes played
    1) Turn 1 win with GG + Dreadnought chain
    2) Turn 3 win without GG (Pandemonium + Dreadnought + Unearth = 24 direct)
    3) T4 win after 1 Duress, or turn 5 with 2 Duress + Chant
    4) Fizzled after T1 Portent shuffle
    5) Turn 3 win (Pandemonium + Dreadnought + Unearth)
    6) Turn 3 win (GG + Dreadnought chain) with 1 Duress
    7) Turn 3 win (Pandemonium + Dreadnought + Unearth)
    8) Turn 2 win (GG + Dreadnought chain)
    9) Turn 3 win (GG + Dreadnought chain), or T4 with Duress
    10) Turn 3 win (GG + Dreadnought chain), or T4 with Chant

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    Re: 12-3: Greater Good and Dreadnought combo

    I tested 6 games between a Replenish build I found online vs Greater Good. Greater Good won all of them, either by comboing off first or by casting Duress to disrupt Replenish (though Replenish would have won 2 of 6 races if both OTP and not hit by discard). Most wins were turn 2-3.

    The deck is far from broken or unbeatable, but it does have a lot of explosive potential and is fun to play.

    It only needs 5-6 mana to win the game, and the mana can be split up over turns

    Line 1) 3GG = Greater Good+Phyrexian Dreadnought -> Draw chain that usually results in winning this turn
    Line 2) 4RB = Pandemonium+Phyrexian Dreadnought+Unearth/Dreadnought#2 -> 24 damage

    Importantly, both of those lines can be accelerated with either Dark Ritual mana, Tinder Wall mana, or Hickory Woodlot mana.

    Woodlot + Petal/Rainbow Land + Dark Ritual = 3GG on turn 2
    Woodlot + Tinder Wall + Petal/Land/ESG = 3GG on turn 3
    ESG/Petal + ESG/Petal + Rainbow Land + Dark Ritual = 3GG on turn 1
    ESG/Petal + ESG/Petal + Rainbow Land + Tinder Wall = 3GG on turn 2
    Rainbow Land/Petal + Rainbow Land/Petal + Dark Ritual + Dark Ritual = 4RB on turn 1-2
    Rainbow Land + Tinder Wall + Dark Ritual + ESG/Petal/Land = 4RB on turn 2

    You can also play Greater Good or Pandemonium a turn earlier to ease mana requirements.

    The overall mana efficiency enables the deck to spend other mana on card selection (ETutor, Portent) or protection (discard, Chant, Grid, removal). It can also win through Winter Orb/Rishadan Port/Tangle Wire, especially with Undiscovered Paradise returning to hand.

    Replenishing back the wincons is unnecessary. Once you start drawing extra cards, paying 6 mana for Pandemonium + double Dreadnought is about as easy as paying 3W for Replenish. Pandemonium+Saproling Burst is a cool combo, but there's no reason to use slots on Saproling Burst when Dreadnoughts already does both roles or draw and damage.

  19. #19
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    Re: 12-3: Greater Good and Dreadnought combo

    Saproling burst is a way of turning a rector mid combo into lots of greater good activations.

    Did the list you test run 3/4 Academy Rector? That's the good one.
    -rob

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    Re: 12-3: Greater Good and Dreadnought combo

    Do you have a copy/link to that list with Rector?

    No Rector in the one I saw. It used Attunement and Intuition to fill the grave and set up Replenish, or could just hardcast Saproling Burst and Pandemonium. It was more of a dedicated Replenish deck also running the Pandeburst combo.

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