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Thread: 12-3: Greater Good and Dreadnought combo

  1. #21
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    Re: 12-3: Greater Good and Dreadnought combo

    Here's one I saw made t16 in Dec.

    1 sap burst
    1 replenish
    1 pandemonium
    1 nostalgic dreams
    2 duress
    4 therapy
    3 rector
    4 Greater good
    4 dreadnought
    3 reanimate
    4 e tutor
    4 petal
    4 esg
    4 Dark rit

    20 lands including hickory woodlot, ancient tomb, and then city of Brass and other multi color lands.
    -rob

  2. #22
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    Re: 12-3: Greater Good and Dreadnought combo

    Thanks. That list looks pretty tight.

    I'll test it out. I do like the old Rector-Therapy engine. I had also just been considering whether cutting fast mana for Tombs would improve consistency. It seems important in a Rector build. I want to see how much of a difference that makes in different games.

    Edit: The first thing I notice is that with less fast mana, playing mid-combo is more constrained on resources. It's easier to fizzle and run out of mana, needing to pass the turn unless you hit multiple Dark Rits early. I can see why the line of discarding Therapy + Rector and Reanimating Rector for Sap Burst can be needed to keep the chain going, or Reanimating Rector for Pandemonium directly instead of hardcasting it.

    Mox Diamond increases the number of 0cmc mana sources giving you draws that don't fizzle, and making more use out of all those lands drawn. But it's much worse in the opening hand. So there is a tradeoff. Passing the turn mid-combo may not be as bad as being down a card in the opener.

    The other thing I noticed is that I was mulliganing more. I was getting more hands full of mana but no gas. Portent or other 1 cmc draw fixing might be good here to reduce the variance in opening hands. Maybe even Sylvan Library. Both can be used to dodge discard by setting up to draw mana first and then combo pieces on the critical turn.

    The combo also seems dependent on resolving Reanimate (on Dreadnoughts or Rector) or Replenish (on Pandeburst) to save mana, making it vulnerable to graveyard hate like Crypts. My build is able to go off explosively often without using the graveyard at all, by using the fast mana to hardcast things. I'm trying to see if I can combine the two strategies to get something more consistent.

  3. #23
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    Re: 12-3: Greater Good and Dreadnought combo

    Quote Originally Posted by FTW View Post
    Thanks. That list looks pretty tight.

    I'll test it out. I do like the old Rector-Therapy engine. I had also just been considering whether cutting fast mana for Tombs would improve consistency. It seems important in a Rector build. I want to see how much of a difference that makes in different games.

    Edit: The first thing I notice is that with less fast mana, playing mid-combo is more constrained on resources. It's easier to fizzle and run out of mana, needing to pass the turn unless you hit multiple Dark Rits early. I can see why the line of discarding Therapy + Rector and Reanimating Rector for Sap Burst can be needed to keep the chain going, or Reanimating Rector for Pandemonium directly instead of hardcasting it.

    Mox Diamond increases the number of 0cmc mana sources giving you draws that don't fizzle, and making more use out of all those lands drawn. But it's much worse in the opening hand. So there is a tradeoff. Passing the turn mid-combo may not be as bad as being down a card in the opener.

    The other thing I noticed is that I was mulliganing more. I was getting more hands full of mana but no gas. Portent or other 1 cmc draw fixing might be good here to reduce the variance in opening hands. Maybe even Sylvan Library. Both can be used to dodge discard by setting up to draw mana first and then combo pieces on the critical turn.

    The combo also seems dependent on resolving Reanimate (on Dreadnoughts or Rector) or Replenish (on Pandeburst) to save mana, making it vulnerable to graveyard hate like Crypts. My build is able to go off explosively often without using the graveyard at all, by using the fast mana to hardcast things. I'm trying to see if I can combine the two strategies to get something more consistent.

    there is an element of variance that gets introduced. it's a bit higher on the power level, but some hands can be quite clunky.

    two things to note:

    1) nostalgic dreams allows you to finish the combo rather easily, especially with ESG.
    2) academy rector can be sacrificed with dreadnought, as it says power 12 or greater. (you'll sac both, so you'll lose a dreadnought, but get greater good or sap burst)

    i also thought it could be useful to use greater good combo with hermit druid, but then it's outside the scope of legacy.

    there's yet another version that has some other kinds of randomness, but introduces another combo:

    https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/3570758#paper

    it's very unrefined, but the idea is buried alive + shallow grave is a win if they don't have an interaction to stop the ghoul. ideally 4x of each, but these are rough numbers trying to get everything to fit.
    -rob

  4. #24
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    Re: 12-3: Greater Good and Dreadnought combo

    Ox of Agonas might be better than Phyrexian Dreadnought with Greater Good.

    2GG - Greater Good
    RR - Discard hand, Draw 3
    Then Draw 5 discard 3
    Net 5 cards, 3 cards in the graveyard
    Try to play or discard everything
    Remove 8 cards, repeat

    One can Entomb - Phyrexian Dreadnought is 2 mana cheaper than Wishclaw Talsiman. Also Echo of Eons opens up another line with Entomb. Ray of Revelation and Ancient Grudge could become GB destroy target Artifact or Enchantment postboard with Entomb.

    It would work better if one could Summoner's Pact for a Magus of the Greater Good. Unfortunately I don't think there is a Life's Legacy effect on a green creature. Disciple of Bolas is close but its in black. Painter's Servant turns on Pact for Phyrexian Dreadnought. Grindstone and Painter's Servant are both artifacts. How versatile is Painter's Servant with Summoner's Pact?

    Immolating Soul Eater could be played with Greater Good as well, but without life gain from something like Momentous Fall or Disciple of Bolas, one can't play it that way again. Morbid Curiosity works with Soul Eater as well.

    Escaping Ox in cycles seems stronger. It finds exactly 8 cards. ESG and SSG won't count as cards in the yard to feed Ox's escape cost. Finding RR seems easy enough. The engine is easier to play multiples of than Ad Nauseam but the deck structure is hard on finding what works with the engine if you play Dreadnought. Entomb and Ox is 8 copies of what works with the engine and you only need 1 to go off. LEDs feed the Ox and add Mana. If creatures are easy to find too, then playing them and cycling through more of the deck means that Greater Good can just feed the yard with SSGs and ESGs if you can hit 5 mana, or Summoner's Pact - Skyshroud Cutter draw 2, discard the rest of the hand. I see the limitation being that drawing 7, and then adding 3 on when you cast Ox means you can only have a Greater Good and Ox in play. Entomb conveniently adds a card on, as could something like Summoner's Pact to make extra cards in the graveyard. It doesn't feel like a deck that will often have a way to win turn 1. LED plays with Ox incredibly well tho since you can cast Ox from the graveyard for RR, and you need the rest of the cards in hand out of hand. Ox is also not so good with cards like Chrome Mox, but also permanent mana sources like Mox Opal or Mox Diamond. Mox Diamond is great with Turntimber Symbiosis and Summoner's Pact when Pact finds Dryad Arbor. The right deck structure could produce a high storm count very easily is reassuring.

    EDIT:
    One could play 4 Entomb, 1 Ox, 1 Greater Good, to save deck space for a Reanimation build or Echo of Eons focused storm build. 6 cards could be a lot actually considering how strong Entomb is as an Instant tutor for B. Entomb even by itself is 2UB, Timetwister. Pull from Eternity is also EoE, post EoE.

    Also if you can't feed Ox, Ox and Greater Good filter Echo of Eons to the Graveyard.

    Burying and reanimating an Ox to gore for the Greater Good seems good.. as long as you also have forever when the Ox can't still be dead. Like how long has it been since I heard that dead horse joke about banning Lion's Eye Diamond.

    Agonas does sound like its hinting at Tendrils of Agony.

    EDIT 2:
    Death's Shadow could be played with Greater Good or Life's Legacy if one can pay enough life first. 1G + B + Life sink. Lim-Dul's Vault, Plunge into Darkness, Spoils of the Vault, and Toxic Deluge can sink quite a bit of life in one turn. Pay half your life with Cruel Bargain, Infernal Contract, or Doomsday. Boseiju, Who Shelters All, Snuff Out, Overgrown Tomb, Cabal Pit, Street Wraith, Noxious Revival, Sylvan Library and Agadeem, the Undercrypt also pay life. As does Griselbrand and Ad Nauseam.

    Finding the other piece with Plunge into Darkness seems best of those. 1G + 1B + B. So BBG2. After drawing 10 to 12 I suppose one can win. Tainted Pact into Death's Shadow is not awful against slow decks. Almost like Pseudo reanimator just going straight for a 10/10. You have to play it before Life's Legacy anyway. Beats with a 10/10 for 1BB could be good against Lands/Stax/Turbo Eldrazi.

    Bone Miser is another interesting one, tho it costs 5. Discarding cards to make tokens can feed Greater Good. Discarding lands makes mana. Raven's Crime with Bone Miser can produce mana while filtering through cards, essentially, discard a land, add BB. Raven's Crime can be found via Entomb. One can Reanimate Bone Miser.
    Last edited by Vacrix; 01-30-2021 at 02:38 AM.
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  5. #25

    Re: 12-3: Greater Good and Dreadnought combo

    Quote Originally Posted by Vacrix View Post
    Ox of Agonas might be better than Phyrexian Dreadnought with Greater Good.

    2GG - Greater Good
    RR - Discard hand, Draw 3
    Then Draw 5 discard 3
    Net 5 cards, 3 cards in the graveyard
    Try to play or discard everything
    Remove 8 cards, repeat
    This means you draw and discard 8 cards and then exile all 8 cards from the graveyard. You'd also need to exile 8 cards to start going off. That doesn't leave much margin for building up to a finish. On top of that it's vulnerable to graveyard hate. II guess you can supplement with Hollow One or use something like Manamorphose to see more cards.

    The 8 cards in, 8 cards out also means that chrome mox and SSG aren't great for mana while cycling ox - I guess you can get there with LED, Lotus Petal, Rite of Flame, and Tinder Wall, but that's a little iffy.

    You can credibly try to set up a graveyard for ox while digging for Greater Good using Commune with the Gods.

    Immolating Soul Eater could be played with Greater Good as well, but without life gain from something like Momentous Fall or Disciple of Bolas, one can't play it that way again. Morbid Curiosity works with Soul Eater as well.
    There might be a crazy pile with Soul Eater, Wheel of Misfortune,Children of Korlis and Second Sunrise.

  6. #26
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    Re: 12-3: Greater Good and Dreadnought combo

    Ox seems unnecessary when Dreadnought draws you more cards for less mana and without consuming graveyard resources.

    Phyrexian Dreadnought - 1: Draw 12, discard 3

    Unearth - B: Draw 12, discard 3

    Reanimate - B, 1 life: Draw 12, discard 3

    Argivian Find -1W: Draw 12, discard 3

    Enlightened Tutor - 1W: Draw 11, discard 3

    That's the current bar to beat

    Ox doesn't seem very good in comparison
    RR, exile 8 cards: Discard hand, draw 8, discard 3

    Also I think this deck really only has legs in premodern anyway.
    Last edited by FTW; 01-31-2021 at 10:55 PM.

  7. #27

    Re: 12-3: Greater Good and Dreadnought combo

    Quote Originally Posted by FTW View Post
    Argivian Find -1W: Draw 12, discard 3
    Does this protect the combo from Surgical Extraction in that the target card is no longer in the grave making Surgical fizzle?

  8. #28

    Re: 12-3: Greater Good and Dreadnought combo

    What is the niche of this deck you are aiming at? It’s going to be very difficult to make anything better than recruiter aluren. That 4c enchantment combo requires less mana, instant instead of sorcery speed, less pieces, and avoids more hate.

  9. #29

    Re: 12-3: Greater Good and Dreadnought combo

    Quote Originally Posted by Reeplcheep View Post
    What is the niche of this deck you are aiming at? It’s going to be very difficult to make anything better than recruiter aluren. That 4c enchantment combo requires less mana, instant instead of sorcery speed, less pieces, and avoids more hate.
    If this is a question to me as the opener of the thread: I cannot compare to Aluren, as I have never played with or against Aluren. That being said I do not see a niche for this Greater Good deck in Legacy, sadly. This realization came when debating the deck idea. I may play this deck to troll people as I own the pieces but would stick with TES if I want to maximize chances. The premodern version looks fun though.

    I would still be interested to know whether Argivian Find makes Surgical fizzle.
    Last edited by Tourach; 02-01-2021 at 11:56 AM.

  10. #30
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    Re: 12-3: Greater Good and Dreadnought combo

    Anything that removes the target vs a single-target spell will cause a fizzle. With high mana costs, probably better to rely on Noxious Revival..

  11. #31
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    Re: 12-3: Greater Good and Dreadnought combo

    Yes, Argivian Find makes Surgical on Dreadnought fizzle. It also returns a countered/killed/milled Greater Good or gets another Dreadnought draw 12 if needed, so it can fill many roles for just a single mana. It costs less mana than other Regrowth effects, except for Noxious Revival. However Noxious puts the card on top of library only (not useful always) and is not legal in Premodern.

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