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Thread: Cascading Valki Rhinos - The next deck to dominate legacy imho

  1. #1

    Cascading Valki Rhinos - The next deck to dominate legacy imho

    Last edited by Clark Kant; 01-12-2021 at 12:04 PM.

  2. #2
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    Re: Cascading Valki Rhinos - The next deck to dominate legacy imho

    Do the rules work that way? Can you cascade into Valki but then choose to cast the Planeswalker side?

    Cascade combo needs 10 cascaders max. 16 is overkill.

    Demonic Dread is liability. Needs a target to cast. Doesn't pitch to Force. Terrible card.

    22 lands + 8 spirit guides is also too much mana

    -4 Dread
    -2 Plea
    -2 lands

    +4 Oko
    +3 Borrower
    +1 Uro

    For the 3-4 flex slots FoN, Sphinx of Foresight, Bonecrusher Giant are all options.

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Laser Brains View Post
    With the printing of Gigantosaurus, Thrashing Brontodon and Steel Leaf Champion the deck has evolved from good to very competitive. Anyway, give it a few play tests if you are interested and let me know what you think.

    Winter Maze
    Quote Originally Posted by CptHaddock View Post
    With veteran explorer I know that I 100% will not enjoy a 30 minute grindfest against someone who can barely afford dual lands and believes that their deck can cast a 10 mana 8/8.

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    Re: Cascading Valki Rhinos - The next deck to dominate legacy imho

    I think the template would be Hypergenesis. I played 16 lands and 4 each of the Spirit Guides for mana. My cascade enablers were 4x Ardent Plea, Shardless Agent, and Violent Outburst. To enable maindeck Force of Will I used creatures in the threat package that were blue so I could get to the 16 blue card count. In this case, you can actually just get the blue count higher by including some number of Force of Negation, Misdirection, and Brazen Borrower. I definitely like the Sphinx of Foresight idea, it will give you much needed consistency due to the fact that fundamentally you're still just a Belcher deck.
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  5. #5

    Re: Cascading Valki Rhinos - The next deck to dominate legacy imho

    Quote Originally Posted by FTW View Post
    Do the rules work that way? Can you cascade into Valki but then choose to cast the Planeswalker side?

    Cascade combo needs 10 cascaders max. 16 is overkill.

    Demonic Dread is liability. Needs a target to cast. Doesn't pitch to Force. Terrible card.

    22 lands + 8 spirit guides is also too much mana

    -4 Dread
    -2 Plea
    -2 lands

    +4 Oko
    +3 Borrower
    +1 Uro

    For the 3-4 flex slots FoN, Sphinx of Foresight, Bonecrusher Giant are all options.
    You’re absolutely right. It slipped my mind that Demonic Dread requires a creature in play in order to be cast, I think 12 cascaders is the right call. I really like Ardent Plea so I would not cut that, it can pitched to FoW/Misdirection/FoN so I think the full playset of the 3 other cascaders is justified, and essential for consistency’s sake.

    Sphinx of Foresight seems good. I actually think Memory Leak is an awesome card for this deck as well (gives you a turn 1 play of cycling it away, or against control matchups lets you pick away their counterspell or removal to protect your Tibalt).

    The Horizon Canopy lands are fantastic in the mana base, giving you access to multiple colors while also letting you trade away lands when you are flooded. 21-22 lands is perfect as long as atleast 5 of them are Canopy lands.

  6. #6

    Re: Cascading Valki Rhinos - The next deck to dominate legacy imho

    If you're interested in this strategy in Modern, here is what I would run...

    4 Simian Spirit Guide

    4 Ardent Plea

    4 Violent Outburst

    1-2 Demonic Dread

    4 Street Wraith/Memory Leak/Sphinx of Foresight/Bloodbraid Elf

    3-4 Valki, God of Lies

    2-3 Crashing Footfalls

    2 Maelstrom’s Pulse

    2 Anguished Unmaking

    0-2 Brazen Borrower

    0-2 Uro, Titan of Nature’s Wrath

    0-2 Force of Negation

    7-12 Flex Slots (Bloodbraid Elf/Teferi3/Bonecrusher Giant/Memory Leak/Sphinx of Foresight and some other 3cc hate piece or removal)

    21-22 Lands (Waterlogged Grove and other Canopy lands that can be cashed in for more cards when youre flooded)

    Sideboard:

    4 Mindbreak Trap

    4 Leyline of the Void

    4 Leyline of Sanctity

    3 Flex Slots (Trinisphere/Brazen Borrower/Force of Negation/Maelstrom’s Pulse/Anguished Unmaking/Plague Engineer/Archon of Emeria)

    The deck is absolutely absurd. Calling it now, the deck is going to mess up modern cause either a ban or a rule change and piss of a lot of people that will have spent a ton of money to get a playset of Valki.

  7. #7

    Re: Cascading Valki Rhinos - The next deck to dominate legacy imho

    Looks good! Definitely going to try it in modern soon!
    Quote Originally Posted by Laser Brains View Post
    With the printing of Gigantosaurus, Thrashing Brontodon and Steel Leaf Champion the deck has evolved from good to very competitive. Anyway, give it a few play tests if you are interested and let me know what you think.

    Winter Maze
    Quote Originally Posted by CptHaddock View Post
    With veteran explorer I know that I 100% will not enjoy a 30 minute grindfest against someone who can barely afford dual lands and believes that their deck can cast a 10 mana 8/8.

  8. #8

    Re: Cascading Valki Rhinos - The next deck to dominate legacy imho

    Quote Originally Posted by kinda View Post
    Looks good! Definitely going to try it in modern soon!
    Teferi3 is absolutely nuts in this deck, both in legacy and modern. Play 2-3 of them.

    I am considering a rainbow manabase possibly with a Niv Mizzet Reborn as an alternate finisher and way to refill the hand.

  9. #9

    Re: Cascading Valki Rhinos - The next deck to dominate legacy imho

    Anzid went 4-1 with this: https://www.twitch.tv/anzidmtg/v/899...?sr=a&t=11205s

    Very fun stream!
    Quote Originally Posted by Laser Brains View Post
    With the printing of Gigantosaurus, Thrashing Brontodon and Steel Leaf Champion the deck has evolved from good to very competitive. Anyway, give it a few play tests if you are interested and let me know what you think.

    Winter Maze
    Quote Originally Posted by CptHaddock View Post
    With veteran explorer I know that I 100% will not enjoy a 30 minute grindfest against someone who can barely afford dual lands and believes that their deck can cast a 10 mana 8/8.

  10. #10

    Re: Cascading Valki Rhinos - The next deck to dominate legacy imho

    Quote Originally Posted by kinda View Post
    Anzid went 4-1 with this: https://www.twitch.tv/anzidmtg/v/899...?sr=a&t=11205s

    Very fun stream!
    Yeah that stream was very entertaining

  11. #11

    Re: Cascading Valki Rhinos - The next deck to dominate legacy imho

    Has anyone tested [[Flaxen Intruder]]? If I understand the ruling correctly, cascading into it yields 3 2/2s and unlike the suspend card it's not *that* feelbad to draw. It's also not vulnerable to Chalice on 0, Sanctum Prelate, this sort of thing.

  12. #12

    Re: Cascading Valki Rhinos - The next deck to dominate legacy imho

    Quote Originally Posted by chunderbucket View Post
    Has anyone tested [[Flaxen Intruder]]? If I understand the ruling correctly, cascading into it yields 3 2/2s and unlike the suspend card it's not *that* feelbad to draw. It's also not vulnerable to Chalice on 0, Sanctum Prelate, this sort of thing.
    3 2/2s sounds worse than 2 4/4s Crashing Footfalls in oko’s world.

  13. #13
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    Re: Cascading Valki Rhinos - The next deck to dominate legacy imho

    Quote Originally Posted by chunderbucket View Post
    Has anyone tested [[Flaxen Intruder]]? If I understand the ruling correctly, cascading into it yields 3 2/2s and unlike the suspend card it's not *that* feelbad to draw. It's also not vulnerable to Chalice on 0, Sanctum Prelate, this sort of thing.
    The card has cmc 2 or less and can be cascaded into, but it is not called Valki. The cheese people are using looks roughly like:
    20 land
    8 Guides
    4 Oko
    4 Valki
    4 FoW
    4 FoN
    4 Misd
    4 Violent Outburst
    4 Shardless
    2 Dispute
    2 flex

    Just turn 0-1 Valki every game. Super skill magic. Expect a rules update very soon that makes Valki appear as cmc 9 in library.

  14. #14
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    Re: Cascading Valki Rhinos - The next deck to dominate legacy imho

    I'm pretty sure Flaxen Intruder/adventure works with cascade. Text at scryfall:

    Casting a card as an Adventure isn’t casting it for an alternative cost. Effects that allow you to cast a spell for an alternative cost or without paying its mana cost may allow you to apply those to the Adventure.
    (2019-10-04)
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  15. #15

    Re: Cascading Valki Rhinos - The next deck to dominate legacy imho

    Quote Originally Posted by Fox View Post
    The card has cmc 2 or less and can be cascaded into, but it is not called Valki. The cheese people are using looks roughly like:
    20 land
    8 Guides
    4 Oko
    4 Valki
    4 FoW
    4 FoN
    4 Misd
    4 Violent Outburst
    4 Shardless
    2 Dispute
    2 flex

    Just turn 0-1 Valki every game. Super skill magic. Expect a rules update very soon that makes Valki appear as cmc 9 in library.
    I think MDFCs having different rules than split cards makes absolutely no sense, so I would support this rule change. However this deck isn’t bannable at all. It’s just bad hypergenesis (lose to pithing needle/other combo) except now you have a slightly better fair game.

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    Re: Cascading Valki Rhinos - The next deck to dominate legacy imho

    Quote Originally Posted by Reeplcheep View Post
    I think MDFCs having different rules than split cards makes absolutely no sense, so I would support this rule change. However this deck isn’t bannable at all. It’s just bad hypergenesis (lose to pithing needle/other combo) except now you have a slightly better fair game.
    You still have to ban Oko. Needle on Valki is the worst possible play you could make vs Oko. Here's how this story ends: Needle to elk -> Valki exile NeedleElk -> cast Needle, name your comeback mechanism.

    Never ever murder yourself with your own cards.

  17. #17

    Re: Cascading Valki Rhinos - The next deck to dominate legacy imho

    They have no selection so how are they finding that oko?

    Still not convinced that outburst/Valki is better than s&t/hypergenesis/emrakul/griselbrand/omniscience.You can run oko in either deck, but one doesn’t lose to pithing needle or doomsday pass the turn.

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    Re: Cascading Valki Rhinos - The next deck to dominate legacy imho

    Quote Originally Posted by Reeplcheep View Post
    They have no selection so how are they finding that oko?

    Still not convinced that outburst/Valki is better than s&t/hypergenesis/emrakul/griselbrand/omniscience.You can run oko in either deck, but one doesn’t lose to pithing needle or doomsday pass the turn.
    So HyperG has to have the wincon in hand, its cascades only find enabler, never the payoff. It also has to jank out with SnT. Also it can't cast Grisel or Emmy, whereas Valki is cast as a 2/1 and Oko as a 1-card combo. ESG fixes for Oko.

    All of these things together, and the far higher blue count make Valki a consistent turn 0 to turn 2 deck with incredibly low skill reloads.

  19. #19

    Re: Cascading Valki Rhinos - The next deck to dominate legacy imho

    Quote Originally Posted by kinda View Post
    Anzid went 4-1 with this: https://www.twitch.tv/anzidmtg/v/899...?sr=a&t=11205s

    Very fun stream!
    Awesome, thanks for sharing. Yes its a very solid efficent consistent strategy, so not surprised it 4-1ed even with a suboptimal build (not a fan of 4 misdirection or the mana base). It will be optimized and show up in a ton of challenges and 5-0s in no time

  20. #20

    Re: Cascading Valki Rhinos - The next deck to dominate legacy imho

    Arkhan just won the legacy challenge with this.
    Quote Originally Posted by Laser Brains View Post
    With the printing of Gigantosaurus, Thrashing Brontodon and Steel Leaf Champion the deck has evolved from good to very competitive. Anyway, give it a few play tests if you are interested and let me know what you think.

    Winter Maze
    Quote Originally Posted by CptHaddock View Post
    With veteran explorer I know that I 100% will not enjoy a 30 minute grindfest against someone who can barely afford dual lands and believes that their deck can cast a 10 mana 8/8.

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