If such fakes are out there, they would almost certainly be slowly dripped into the market to not crash prices, while the forgerers simultaneously flood the market with obvious fakes to make people feel more secure about buying the fee cards that do pass the light and dot tests.
At the end of the day, its just ink printed on paper. The reserve list cards were printed when magic was a small hobby. With how valuable reserve list cards are, it would be worth it for forgerers to obtain or reverse engineer the exact same types of paper and printers used to print the first magic cards. How it could be impossible to reverse engineer printing techniques from the 90s?
The methods/tests to detect fakes are common knowledge which means that forgerers know what they need to modify in ordet to pass those tests.
It’s inevitable that with machine learning and other advanced techniques, counterfits that are indistinguishable from genuine cards will arise. They are probably technically feasible even now.
With singles of power 9 going for tens of thousands of dollars, it is absolutely worth the time and effort it would take for counterfeiters to perfect the process and make counterfeits that pass all the common tests.
Imo, there is a very high chance that such forgeries already exist, and we have no way to know if they are very slowly dripped into the market to not plummet card prices, while forgerers also flood the market with obvious fakes to make people feel more secure in the cards that pass all the tests.
IIRC, the type of printer (and/or paper) used to make the original cards aren't used anymore, so it's kinda hard to replicate it.
They would only need to get their hands on a single printer from back then, or even just the blueprints for that printer, in order to be able to easily reverse engineer it. But even barring that, machine learning would let them create a printer that prints in the same manner. Manufacturing the same type of paper would be even easier.
I already swapped out my duals for proxies. No one can tell them apart. I can't either, I only know by keeping them separately.
I currently play "beta duals" in my deck. No one can tell those are fake either, including a handful of judges. They just check for the CE/IE stamp and shrug when it's not there.
Of course, I only play locally with my friends right now since paper events are gone.
There isn't.
There is, however, a good test though for people talking out of their ass about it: Just look for the word "loupe" in their answers.
I was a commercial graphic artist for almost 25 years. I even sent an application to WOTC...
The variables to create good fakes are humongous. However, I have the technical understanding to do the pre-press work.
I even remember the line screen and DPI for ABU cards.
Getting the paper right, the sheen, the inks, the color, true black (not CMYK) black, etc...
A long time ago, I had access to a small ABdick press and I surely wanted to try but I never invested the time and energy.
I've seen good fakes that even passed my loupe test but did not pass other "tests".
You have no idea what you're talking about. There is no "perfect" fake, and this is an irrational fear. These are physical cards that were printed decades ago. You can't print cards today and have them be indistinguishable from cards printed in 1993. Everything is different.
Perhaps coincidentally, there's a similar thread on the mtgfinance subreddit: https://old.reddit.com/r/mtgfinance/...that_pass_all/
It's worth a read and contains many comments that address logistics, practicality, and the physical and technical challenges of forgery.
Thanks for linking to my reddit post. celticstill_i_last made an excellent post in that thread explaining the process...
“ You could buy a cheap beat up single color 9810 or 360. It’s just finding ink and stock. There isn’t much of a plate issue anymore with the advancement of paper plates. Metal plates are dead, and so are dark rooms. You could 100000% create identical alphas as long as the ink and paper are correct, down to the pica and point(old school printing terms).
A ab dick 360 or 9810 aren’t the price of a Honda, easy to maintain, and fun to use. It’s finding the exact ink and card stock.
As for the pattern. I think that could be the easiest part. We are talking about single color, overlapping printing. Each plate, for each color. You change the plate, clean the rollers, add new plate, add new ink. Paper plates are so cheap and easy to use, getting the pattern down would take some time yes, but once you have it done, it’s just a matter of cleaning rollers and swapping plates. 1 color press, 3 man job. One to watch the feed, one to watch the tray, one to handle cleaning and design and replicate image to plate. We are talking about 30 year old applications with modern techniques. It’s very plausible that within a month of trail and error you could easily manufacture thousands of 1 card. It’s all on card and ink. That will always be the hardest to match. Which is why it’s hasn’t been accomplished perfectly.
Edit: to put it bluntly. If I had the perfect matched ink and card stock, a single color press, and the plate maker/printer, within two months of running solo I could have many unl lotuses in the world. It’s not hard to age card stock after printing. Place hundreds of sheets on the floor and drive over them with a forklift and do some sick spins, lmfao. Seriously tho, time, money, and the right tools and it’s not challenging”
You can't replicate the smell, though. Not going to lie, back when I was doing a lot of business in Beta Power/Duals, etc., I would use my loupe, weigh it, feel it in my fingers, and then give it a good sniff.
-Matt
1000% this. when I was a commercial graphic artist, I ran an abdick 9810 solo for small print runs. some were CMYK, too.
after getting all of the above perfect, you'd also want the correct die to cut down all those unlim lotus...
it can be done but I like this reply below:
Maybe I just don't get it, but what is the goal of this thread exactly?
Is it about fakes already out there, printing techniques, or what?
As for the printing process, you could probably replicate everything if you put enough effort to it.
That could probably fool most non-invasive/destructive tests.
The smell comment, as weird as it may be, gives a hint on something you can probably not fake as easily: aging.
If you put real effort and nerd power to it you could probably find differences due to chemical decomposition.
The smell might be a bit to high in variance, but somewhere in the spectrum there should be something you can trace chromatographically.
As for fakes existing, at this point who cares anymore?
If you're buying reserved list cards in this age you're just asking to be scammed.
Either you get fakes or you will never be able to sell them because the prices are absurd.
If Legacy survives as paper format past this pandemic, everyone should be thankful for every player, regardless if they use fakes or not.
Wotc doesn't give a shit about the format, so who cares?
The big mistake WOTC made was making a value statement (Reserved List) about collecting while the cards in question were still being widely used for tournament play. Collector demand, I would presume, is much lower than player demand. So the obvious opportunity for taking advantage of that demand is making fakes to support the player base. If it's just a collectable then they can be scrutinized appropriately by buyers/sellers and fakes are fairly well squashed, especially with the grading services that have popped up for collectables. On the other hand, if there are so many in circulation/demand for actual use, with an 'unregulated' secondary market, the chance for fakes is increased. Until Legacy/Vintage/Commander are no longer played, the Reserved List creates an huge opportunity/risk for fakes. It's the whole 'make something illegal you create a black market' principle, in this case it isn't illegal, but the cards can't be reprinted.
Brainstorm Realist
I close my eyes and sink within myself, relive the gift of precious memories, in need of a fix called innocence. - Chuck Shuldiner
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