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Thread: Dragon Shredder

  1. #1

    Dragon Shredder

    This deck is not only really cool it's really fun! It's all about manipulating your top deck.

    So way back in the day I used to play mono black Worldgorger Dragon.dec featuring Bazaar of Baghdad. This deck I'm sure you're all familiar with. Since the un-banning of Worldgorger Dragon in Legacy I've noticed a lot of Dragon decks over the years, but the deck doesn't operate the same as it did in Vintage since Bazaar is banned. One of the new builds I noticed was a control deck that finishes with the Dragon combo, but most builds look a lot more like Reanimator. The down fall is that Reanimator is just a better deck. It only requires a 2 card combo: Entomb + Any reanimation spell. Dragon requires 3 cards but the plus side is that it wins right there on the spot.

    So I decided to take a stab at a legacy build and discovered that Codex Shredder and Ghoulcaller's Bell make great win cons. They also help you get your Dragon in the yard. Think about how nicely they synergizes with Brainstorm. Just put a Dragon from your hand onto the top of your deck and then Shred it to the yard. This also works well with Diabolic Vision and Ponder. I was originally running Lim Dul's Vault in the Diabolic Vision slot but after testing I think I like the DV better because you don't have to wait until next turn to draw your card and you still get to stack your top deck. If you can think of something better let me know.

    To use Codex as a win con you have a couple of options.

    A). When you go off with your Dragon combo while it is in play you can mill yourself every time it enters the battlefield until you mill another creature such as Bloodrite Invoker then stop milling yourself and let the loop continue, generate infinite mana and then animate him and win using his ability.

    B). The other option is to mill your opponent to zero cards then use Codex Shredder's secondary ability and return Dragon to your hand thus stopping the loop and then pass the turn.

    I haven't tested it yet, just lots of goldfishing. Is it better than Reanimator? I don't know, probably not. It does feel more consistent. Turn 2 and 3 wins almost every game and 50% of those games are turn 2. Sometimes you get turn one kills. There are so many ways to set up the combo and the deck is more complex than you might think. It isn't easy to pilot at first but after you play it a few times you see all the synergies it has to offer. You still get two card combos such as in Reanimator: Entomb + Animate Dead for Griselbrand. Draw 14, if you get a Petal plus Rituals you can usually win right there on the spot.

    The downside to the deck is that it has no room for disruption. The upside is that this deck is a lot more fun to play than Reanimator, more consistent and feels like less of a glass cannon.

    Lastly, you can force a draw if you need to. I know this is unsporting but if you have to you can simply reanimate your Dragon without a win con and go infinite loop creating a draw.

    Here are my goldfishing results. In this test I assume that if I didn't win by turn 3 it is considered a loss. I'll proxy it up soon and test it against the gauntlet. Hopefully it holds up.

    Wins and Losses:
    win turn 3
    win turn 2
    win turn 2
    loss
    win turn 2
    win turn 3
    win turn 2
    win turn 2
    mulligan
    win turn 2
    mulligan
    loss
    win turn 3
    loss
    win turn 3
    win turn 3
    win turn 2
    loss
    win turn 3
    win turn 3
    win turn 3
    win turn 2
    win turn 3
    win turn 2
    win turn 3
    win turn 1
    win turn 2
    mulligan
    win turn 3
    win turn 2
    loss
    win turn 3
    mulligan
    win turn 3
    win turn 3
    win turn 3
    win turn 3
    loss
    win turn 2
    win turn 2
    win turn 2
    win turn 3
    loss
    draw
    win turn 3
    win turn 1
    win turn 2
    win turn 2
    win turn 2
    win turn 2

    50 games:
    11 losses
    38 wins 20 were turn 2 or earlier
    1 draw (I could have had more draws but I didn't think about this until I was towards the end of my testing)

    Let me know what you think. Also, comments and suggestions welcome.

    Dragon Shredder: 60 Cards

    Beasts: 7
    4x Worldgorger Dragon
    2x Griselbrand
    1x Bloodrite Invoker

    Reanimators: 8
    4x Animate Dead
    4x Dance of the Dead

    Enablers: 22
    4x Codex Shredder
    2x Ghoulcaller's Bell
    4x Brainstorm
    4x Careful Study
    4x Entomb
    2x Diabolic Vision
    2x Ponder

    Fast Mana: 8
    4x Dark Ritual
    4x Lotus Petal

    Land: 15
    4x Underground Sea
    4x Bloodstained Mire
    4x Polluted Delta
    2x Darkslick Shores
    1x Swamp

    Sideboard: 15 (The SB is an after thought and could probably use help)
    4x Surgical Extraction
    3x Thoughtsieze
    1x Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
    1x Ashen Rider
    3x Ratchet Bomb
    1x Pact of Negation

    Test drive it here
    Last edited by Laser Brains; 01-29-2021 at 04:08 AM.
    "WaaaauuugghhhaaaauuugghhhaauuugghhhaaauuugghhhW" -Chewbacca

  2. #2
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    Re: Dragon Shredder

    This looks fun.

    The first thing that jumps to mind is that it's vulnerable to the same hate as Reanimator but has no maindeck protection slots. UB Reanimator has counters, and BR Reanimator has discard and Chancellor. Do you need all those cantrips and copies of mill cards to reach the consistency to goldfish that quickly? It leaves no room for protection. Would the engine be impaired by running maindeck discard? If so, that seems like a liability.

    Diabolic Vision seems really slow in general. UB at sorcery speed? Lim-Dul's Vault may not put the card in your hand, but it can dig 20-30 cards deep if needed and is guaranteed to find the card you want, and you can cast it EOT at instant speed. I think both are too slow for this deck, but Vault seems better than Vision in an interactive game vs an opponent.

    A couple cards jump to mind that may or may not help your game plan

    Hedron Crab: During the Dragon combo, you infinite landfall to mill your Invoker into the yard and mill the opponent to oblivion, so this is basically a Codex Shredder copy that also blocks early beaters and self-mills you faster than Shredder precombo. On MTGO it's also 1/3 as many loops to iterate and even fewer clicks (because you can yield to the Crab trigger, rather than having to tap Shredder and select a target). The drawback is it's weak to creature removal.

    Scheming Symmetry: This tutor sets up your missing combo piece much more quickly. Then you can mill the opponent to remove the card they got. Or you can cantrip into your card immediately and go off that turn. I wonder if this would allow you to reduce the number of cantrips so you can make room for interaction.

  3. #3

    Re: Dragon Shredder

    You already have an animate dead and infinite mill when you are going off. if you are going off. Why play Bloodchief’s enforcer instead of Thassa oracle? Thoracle would also let you win more easily with griselbrand.

    Shriekhorn just seems better than shredder since you plan on bouncing it anyways.

    Scheming symmetry gives you something that actually gives you a niche instead of just beeing bad oops/be reanimator (8 vamp tutors effectively between it and entomb). I would highly recommend playing it since it could make the deck extremely resilient: g3 and g2 you can tutor up anti-hate.

    Symmetry also might let you play doomsday which is busted. T1 Shriekhorn chrome mox symmetry mill op, t2 doomsday mill yourself for 2, t3 mill yourself for 2 Thassa oracle sounds disgusting.

    Shriekmaw would also let you win the same turn you doomsday with any cycle. Anything , deep analysis, LED, petal, oracle. Mill the first 2, cycle into led, use led plus analysis to draw the last 2 with U floating.

  4. #4

    Re: Dragon Shredder

    Thanks guys!

    Scheming Symmetry looks awesome! I'll definitely test it out.

    The upside: You get any card you want from the deck and/or Dragon in the yard with Codex / Ghoulcaller. The idea is that when you are using it as a tutor for yourself you mill away whatever card your opponent grabbed and then draw the card you wanted the following turn. And if you need your Dragon you can just tutor it up and mill it into the yard where it belongs.

    The downside is that without Ghoulcaller Bell or Codex in play it's bad, especially at sorcery speed. That's a pretty bad drawback. I'll test it!

    The nice thing Lim Dul's Vault and Diabolic Vision is that they stack your top deck in which you can manipulate via Codex / Ghoulcaller and shuffling with Fetches / Entomb. The problem is that they are slower.

    @FTW: As for Hedron Crab I like where you are going with this. So this has it's pluses and minuses vs. Codex.

    The good: You can self mill with it's landfall ability and it digs deeper to get your Dragon in the yard pre-combo. It's a blocker if needed.

    The bad: You don't have as much control of your top deck manipulations after Brainstorming / Ponder / Lim Dul's Vault etc.. For example, after you've stacked your top deck pile with Brainstorm / Lim Dul's Vault maybe you won't want to mill the top 3 cards and maybe you only want mill 1 so that you can draw the following card that you put there. It's more susceptible to removal.

    Good suggestion all around. I'll test it out. Maybe it should be in the Ghoulcaller's slot or a 50/50 split with Codex, 3 and 3.

    @Reeple: Thassa's Oracle is interesting! Didn't think about that. Correct me if I'm wrong but it does win right there on the spot? And it doesn't have to target like Bloodrite Invoker. I like! Thank you for the suggestion!

    Shriekhorn seems good too. Like Hedron Crab though you don't quite get the same control over your top deck pile but the pay off is that it digs deeper pre-combo to get your Dragon in the yard. I'll test it out. Thanks again!

    The Doomsday idea is pretty great! It is an entirely different deck though. Maybe it's better! I might have to toy around with that idea after I hammer out this one.

    Again, thanks for the suggestions guys!
    "WaaaauuugghhhaaaauuugghhhaauuugghhhaaauuugghhhW" -Chewbacca

  5. #5

    Re: Dragon Shredder

    Oh, I almost forgot. One big bonus to running Codex Shredder vs. Hedron and Shriekhorn is that it has a back up plan if you happen to draw your win con Bloodrite Invoker / Thassa's Oracle. You never want these guys in your hand. You can just hard cast them and go off, but why do that when you can mill your opponent to nothing then use Codex's second ability and bounce Dragon back to your hand which stops the loop. Then pass the turn.

    Also, I've been goldfishing with Scheming Symmetry and is insane! Thanks for the recommendation!
    "WaaaauuugghhhaaaauuugghhhaauuugghhhaaauuugghhhW" -Chewbacca

  6. #6
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    Re: Dragon Shredder

    Is the Shredder trick necessary? You can just Animate a milled Crab or Griselbrand (or even any creature from the opponent's grave) to break the loop and then cast your Oracle/Invoker from hand with your infinite mana. Oracle takes much less mana and fewer clicks. If you have any mill piece (Shredder or anything else) then you can trivially mill both players' whole libraries before breaking the loop so there should always be an alternate Animate Dead target.

  7. #7

    Re: Dragon Shredder

    That's a good point! Still I like the control I get with shredding just one card rather than 3 but like you said, Hedron digs pre-combo. It's a tough call.
    "WaaaauuugghhhaaaauuugghhhaauuugghhhaaauuugghhhW" -Chewbacca

  8. #8

    Re: Dragon Shredder

    I have also been trying to brew since the Dragon unbanning, but I always find myself having a hard time constructing a sideboard for the deck.

    4 polluted delta
    2 marsh flats
    2 flooded strand
    4 underground sea
    4 sunscorched desert
    1 swamp
    1 island

    4 entomb
    4 animate dead
    4 dance of the dead
    3 thoughtseize

    4 brainstorm
    4 force of will
    4 careful study
    4 read the runes

    4 oona, queen of the fae
    3 worldgorger dragon

    4 lotus petal

    My brew is in a typical BU Reanimator shell with the Dragon combo package. Some key cards to take notice of:

    Suncscorched Desert: Yes this land doesn't produce colored mana, but having it on the battlefield when you try reanimate the Dragon means you do not need an additional third piece to break the loop and win. You can also use Piranha Marsh in this slot, but it comes into play tapped.

    Read the Runes: This is a slower but scalable version of Careful Study. The reason I brought this up is because it is an instant. In the middle of the loop, having Entomb or this in your hand, you can response to the Dragon trigger to get Oona from your library, break the loop, and exile your opponent's library.

    Again, no sideboard because I can't seem to construct a working sideboard. I also want to get ideas from this discussion as well.

  9. #9

    Re: Dragon Shredder

    Sunscorched Desert seems NOT shitty. I might have to toy around with this in my list.

    Your deck looks good. I like that you can fit 7 disruption pieces, typically though this is at the cost of consistency and chances of drawing a hand where you can just go off appears to be less likely.

    I do like your main deck Read the Runes as it has two uses and this is why I'm guessing you're running 4x Oona, Queen of the Fae instead of 1 or 2. With 8 maindeck discard outlets you further your chances of going off. But if so why not 4x Dragon and 3x Oona?

    One thing I would strongly recommend though is Griselbrand. He's just a two card combo (Entomb + Animate) then you draw 14 and most likely you will be able to either go off that turn or the following. Highly recommended. I originally didn't run him, but after he got added it greatly improved consistency of the deck. Often you should have hands with Entomb and Animate but can't go off and this is where a lone Griselbrand would come in really handy.
    "WaaaauuugghhhaaaauuugghhhaauuugghhhaaauuugghhhW" -Chewbacca

  10. #10

    Re: Dragon Shredder

    Okay, so I played this deck (with a few changes) the other day and had some pretty spectacular results. I really don't know if this is better than Reanimator but I had really good match ups against a control heavy Sharkstill and Urza Echoes. This deck has really consistent turn two kills and it feels like the redundancy helps me play around counter magic fairly decently. I don't remember my opponent dropping Chalice at 1 so I think I got lucky there. The games were quick! We weren't playing with sideboards though so I'm worried about game 2 when my opponent sides in grave hate.

    For that reason I'm wondering if a transformational sideboard would work. I've been toying around with a transformational Depths package. Here is the current new list with sideboard.

    DRAGON SHREDDER 2.0: 60 cards

    Beasts: 6
    4x Worldgorger Dragon
    2x Griselbrand

    Reanimators: 8
    4x Animate Dead
    4x Dance of the Dead

    Enablers: 23
    4x Codex Shredder
    2x Ghoulcaller's Bell
    4x Brainstorm
    4x Careful Study
    4x Entomb
    3x Thought Scour
    2x Scheming Symmetry

    Fast Mana: 8
    4x Dark Ritual
    4x Lotus Petal

    Land: 15
    4x Underground Sea
    4x Bloodstained Mire
    4x Polluted Delta
    3x Darkslick Shores

    Sideboard: 15
    4x Dark Depths
    4x Thespian's Stage
    4x Vampire Hexmage
    1x Not of This World
    1x Scheming Symmetry
    1x ???

    So I got rid of the Ponders and Thassa, and added 3x Thought Scour and 2x Scheming Symmetry. This has been working really good! Thought Scour is really nice with Brainstorm for the same reason Codex is. Put your bad cards or a fatty on top of your library and mill them to the yard where they belong. Also, Thought Scour along with Codex and Ghoulcaller makes Scheming Symmetry that much better. That gives us a total 9x cards to interact with it.

    Thassa's Oracle got the cut because I really don't need a win con outside of Ghoulcaller and Codex. Just mill away both decks and then we animate Griselbrand (stopping the loop) and then pass the turn.

    When transforming the sideboard we would cut 4x Worldgorger Dragon, 4x Dance of the Dead, 4x Careful Study and 2x Entomb and then add 4x Vampire Hexmage, 4x Thespian's Stage, 4x Dark Depths, 1x Scheming Symmetry and 1x Not of this World.

    I've been goldfishing this and it feels really strong! It's still an effective Reanimator deck but also I get the Depths combo very very frequently!

    Any thoughts? A transformational Doomsday sb might also work fairly well. I'm just not that experienced with playing Doomsday.
    "WaaaauuugghhhaaaauuugghhhaauuugghhhaaauuugghhhW" -Chewbacca

  11. #11
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    Re: Dragon Shredder

    This looks explosive, fun, and a better use of Codex Shredder than Lantern.

    Ritual + Entomb decks are pretty good at goldfishing in general.

    If you want to upgrade to more competitive, you might want more maindeck ways to fight disruption. The transformational SB dodges gravehate but there's also just stuff like Force of Will and Thoughtseize and Chalice of the Void that can ruin your day no matter which combo you go for. Also boarding into Depths is bad vs most white decks (StP, Karakas, maybe Terminus or Palace Jailer) so you can't always rely on Depths as a postboard win vs gravehate. Some number of Thoughtseize main seems like a good idea.

  12. #12

    Re: Dragon Shredder

    Yeah, I think I've tried to come up with something better than Thoughtseize but I think that is my best bet. Collective Brutality is just too mana intensive. Thoughtseize is nice because you can target yourself and get fatties into your yard. I'm trying to figure out what I could cut to squeeze them in while also not wrecking the deck's consistency. I could possibly see cutting 2x Worldgorger Dragon and maybe a Thought Scour. That would put me at 3x Thoughtseize which would help. It does weaken the effectiveness of Careful Study being that there would be less fatties to discard. Perhaps I cut one or two of those instead being that Thoughtseize retroactively can do the same thing in a pinch. Best bet..

    Cut: 2x Worldgorger Dragon, 1x Thought Scour, 1x Careful Study
    Add: 4x Thoughtseize

    Good points on the Depths sb. Maybe I'll take a look at Doomsday. Another thought is maybe adding 2x Griselbrand and 4x Show and Tell to the sideboard which would leave me with 9x slots open for removal, disruption and hate spells.
    "WaaaauuugghhhaaaauuugghhhaauuugghhhaaauuugghhhW" -Chewbacca

  13. #13
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    Re: Dragon Shredder

    Cutting Dragons seems bad because you lose the power of Careful Study/Shredder milling Dragons in the yard and then have to rely too much on resolving Entomb. At that point you lose a lot of the edges this deck has and become a worse Reanimator.

    For cuts I'd look to some copies of Careful Study or Thought Scour first. Maybe -1 land too. Reanimator should be fine on 14 lands + 4 Petals.

  14. #14

    Re: Dragon Shredder

    Quote Originally Posted by FTW View Post
    Cutting Dragons seems bad because you lose the power of Careful Study/Shredder milling Dragons in the yard and then have to rely too much on resolving Entomb. At that point you lose a lot of the edges this deck has and become a worse Reanimator.

    For cuts I'd look to some copies of Careful Study or Thought Scour first. Maybe -1 land too. Reanimator should be fine on 14 lands + 4 Petals.
    That makes sense. Not sure if I want to run 3x Thoughtseize or 4. If I go with 4 I'm thinking maybe -1 land, -1 Careful Study, -1 Thought Scour and maybe -1 Scheming Symmetry or another Careful Study.

    What do you think about the adding 2x Griselbrand and 4x Show and Tell to the sideboard to dodge grave hate? Side out 2x Dragons and 4x Dance.

    The other 9 slots I should probably run 4x Surgical Extraction and I will certainly need something to battle Chalice. Probably Ratchet Bomb / Powder Keg or maybe even Vampire Hexmage.

    Sideboard should maybe look something like this?

    2x Griselbrand
    4x Show and Tell
    3x Surgical Extraction
    3x Ratchet Bomb
    1x Scheming Symmetry
    1x ???
    1x ???

    [EDIT]: Updated sb. We don't need 4x Surgical and 4x Ratchet, so I cut one of each and left two flex slots open.
    Last edited by Laser Brains; 03-17-2021 at 10:22 PM.
    "WaaaauuugghhhaaaauuugghhhaauuugghhhaaauuugghhhW" -Chewbacca

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