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Thread: [Brainstorming] Rogue Stompy / Steal Stompy

  1. #21
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    Re: [Brainstorming] Rogue Stompy / Steal Stompy

    With Enforcer and a mill-discard aggro theme


    //Lands: 20
    4 Cavern of Souls
    4 Ancient Tomb
    3 City of Traitors
    8 Swamp
    1 Castle Locthwain

    //Artifacts: 12
    4 Chrome Mox
    4 Chalice of the Void
    4 Thorn of Amethyst

    //Rogues: 27
    4 Thieves' Guild Enforcer
    4 Oona's Blackguard
    1 Bitterblossom
    4 Blackbloom Rogue
    4 Nighthawk Scavenger
    4 Opposition Agent
    3 Varragoth, Bloodsky Sire
    3 Gonti, Lord of Luxury

    //Other: 1
    1 Maralen of the Mornsong

    //Sideboard: 15
    1 Surgical Extraction
    3 Faerie Macabre
    3 Plague Engineer
    3 Earwig Squad
    2 Cloak and Dagger
    2 Soul Shatter
    1 Entreat the Dead


    Edit: Nevermind, I playtested this and it's pretty bad.

    The disruption suite was the best part, because otherwise the Rogue engine is just too slow and not explosive enough to compete with Legacy combo, aggro and aggro-control. 4x Chalice and 4x Thorn or 3sphere seems required.

    I agree with Reeplcheep, the untargetted discard is bad too.

    Some of the pump effects are win-more. They're not explosive enough to race fast Legacy clocks, yet they also don't help interact with the board state enough. I would play Cloak SB to protect pieces against targetted removal, but not MD.

    Bitterblossom is too slow outside control MUs.

    The 4 drops are also a bit slow.

    Enforcer is no Goblin Lackey, but it did help have more interaction earlier and more "lord" synergy effects.

    The BB costs are hard, but if any are played Nighthawk Scavenger is worth it.

    Edited list above
    Last edited by FTW; 02-22-2021 at 07:33 AM.

  2. #22

    Re: [Brainstorming] Rogue Stompy / Steal Stompy

    Yah I agree that our 1 drops aren’t impressive. The weird thing is we have tons of good 2 drops so we don’t need a ton of fast mana...

    Maybe we should try gemstone caverns over dark ritual? It’s sort of chrome mox 5-6. Alternatively we could run field of ruin/wasteland to disrupt once we have 3 mana.

    What disruption was needed? That’s why I wanted to splash blue since notion thief in early turns just wrecks most decks. Thorn seems like the best option otherwise.

    Borrower also gives more interaction.

  3. #23
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    Re: [Brainstorming] Rogue Stompy / Steal Stompy

    Quote Originally Posted by Reeplcheep View Post
    Maybe we should try gemstone caverns over dark ritual? It’s sort of chrome mox 5-6. Alternatively we could run field of ruin/wasteland to disrupt once we have 3 mana.
    It's just so bad OTP. Too many colorless sources make it too hard to cast the BB guys. Maybe SB?

    Quote Originally Posted by Reeplcheep View Post
    What disruption was needed? That’s why I wanted to splash blue since notion thief in early turns just wrecks most decks. Thorn seems like the best option otherwise.
    T1 lockpiece. Otherwise the deck just falls too far behind by the time it plays its 4-drop or gets to tutor, especially vs a deck like Delver where Wasteland + Daze will keep you off 4 mana disruption or Bolt can answer you for 1 mana.

    The problem is the early Rogues (Enforcer, Oona, Bitterblossom, Blackbloom) can be ignored for a while. It takes a few turns before their interaction with the game state really matters, so they are bad tempo. Meanwhile the opponent gets to goldfish the first few turns. That's crippling vs any fast decks. Rogues needs more early plays that are interactive. Lock pieces help slow down the game. Maybe even just Eliminate.

    In Turbo Muxus, the early plays like Lackey/WInstigator are the opposite. They're the most tempo you can get from a T1 body, asking "answer me now or you fall far behind". There's just no early Rogue with equivalent pressure, so the first play should be slowing them down.

    Dark Ritual might be better than Enforcer just to threaten more T1 Agent, maybe 3sphere.

  4. #24

    Re: [Brainstorming] Rogue Stompy / Steal Stompy

    Dark ritual plays poorly with cavern unfortunately. Cut all the non-disruptive lords for max disruption, which means dropping mill sub theme.

    Draft list:

    4 Ancient Tomb
    2 City of Traitors
    4 Cavern of Souls
    4 Darkwater Catacombs
    4 Underground Sea
    1 Swamp

    4 Blackbloom Rogue
    4 Chrome Mox
    2 Lotus Petal

    4 Chalice of the Void
    2 Cloak and Dagger
    4 Thorn of Amethyst
    4 Oona‘s Blackguard
    4 Opposition Agent
    4 Vaggaroth, Bloodsky Sire
    4 Notion Thief
    4 Anowon, the ruin thief
    1 Entreat the Dead


    This list should t1 thorn or chalice most games, or cloak into uncounterable agent/thief. Deck should have lots of late game gas. Basically every card is a must answer, making the cloak mdable as a 2 of imo.

    Petals over drit to help with splash and to not require cutting cavern. Kept anowon and Blackguard because they have ca in addition to being lords. Entreat is to make top deck vaggaroth a bomb by himself. Cut all BB guys for UB guys, can’t run both (darkwater catacombs vs urborg)

    Land base is 6 sol lands, 13 untapped coloured lands, 4 utility lands, 6 acceleration, ~18 blue sources. This was my best guess at a manabase for a lower to the ground stompy list.

  5. #25
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    Re: [Brainstorming] Rogue Stompy / Steal Stompy

    Lotus Petal's a good idea for Moxes 5-6.

    The max disruption plan looks good. I ended up cutting my Stinkdrinkers as well, too winmore as uninteractive lords that require a winning board state. MD Cloak seems fine as a way to protect key pieces and add pressure, now that each creature is more impactful.

    I wonder if Notion Thief is too slow to matter MD. Against non-Brainstorm decks, it has no text. Against Brainstorm decks, if you don't resolve a lockpiece then Thief comes down a bit too slow (or dies too easily or gets prevented by Wasteland), and if you do have Chalice/Thorn then there's anti-synergy because there are fewer cantrips to prey on. I was finding my 4 drops slow and didn't want too many, especially when you need to Boast Varragoth or face mana denial.

    4 Catacombs also seems like asking to lose to Wasteland. It can fix UB off Tomb/City, but if they kill your Tomb then you get 2-for-1d and have no mana. Catacombs seems too goldfishy. A regular UB dual seems better, at least tapping for mana on its own.

    Without Catacombs, I already had multiple games with awkward sequences vs Wasteland. E.g. you have City + colored nonbasic (Caverns, Blackbloom). They Waste your colored source. Your only colored source in hand is Blackbloom but it ETB tapped, so to get colored mana you have to sacrifice City without using it... This is already a vulnerability in the manabase, and adding Catacombs makes the Wasteland 2-for-1 potential even worse.

  6. #26

    Re: [Brainstorming] Rogue Stompy / Steal Stompy

    Quote Originally Posted by FTW View Post
    Lotus Petal's a good idea for Moxes 5-6.

    The max disruption plan looks good. I ended up cutting my Stinkdrinkers as well, too winmore as uninteractive lords that require a winning board state.

    I wonder if Notion Thief is too slow to matter MD. Against non-Brainstorm decks, it has no text. Against Brainstorm decks, if you don't resolve a lockpiece then Thief comes down a bit too slow (or dies too easily or gets prevented by Wasteland), and if you do have Chalice/Thorn then there's anti-synergy because there are fewer cantrips to prey on. I was finding my 4 drops slow and didn't want too many, especially when you need to Boast Varragoth or face mana denial.

    4 Catacombs also seems like asking to lose to Wasteland. It can fix UB off Tomb/City, but if they kill your Tomb then you get 2-for-1d and have no mana. Catacombs seems too goldfishy. A regular UB dual seems better, at least tapping for mana on its own.

    Without Catacombs, I already had multiple games with awkward sequences vs Wasteland. E.g. you have City + colored nonbasic (Caverns, Blackbloom). They Waste your colored source. Your only colored source in hand is Blackbloom but it ETB tapped, so to get colored mana you have to sacrifice City without using it... This is already a vulnerability in the manabase, and adding Catacombs makes the Wasteland 2-for-1 potential even worse.
    When are you casting anything in this deck off of just an usea? You can use mana from your moxen to filter. Perhaps cut to 3 just to lower the chances of drawing 2? Catacombs is very important if you have 8 colourless lands (lets you cast notion thief off city plus tomb) but perhaps with only 6 it’s less important. We could consider going to a fetch mana base to protect from wasteland.


    Conservative 2c rogues: 4 Tomb 2 city 3 Sea 1 Swamp 1 Island 4 delta 4 cavern
    6 sol lands ~18 untapped sources of each colour ~7 ways to get basics

    Edit: on the slowness of notion thief: narset is slower out of urza decks and is fine disruption there. Perhaps the nonbo with chalice thing is an argument to running only thorn and 3ball not chalice?

  7. #27
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    Re: [Brainstorming] Rogue Stompy / Steal Stompy

    That manabase looks a lot smoother vs an interactive meta. And I expect a lot of Wasteland now that Astrolabe is banned.

    We should test that first and see if it's good enough to cast the UB Rogues. Mox imprinting a gold card fixes both colors. Cavern fixes both colors. Add Catacombs back if the deck struggles with UB, but it may not be needed with all the ramp already present.

  8. #28

    Re: [Brainstorming] Rogue Stompy / Steal Stompy

    Do you think this mana base could support 1UU? TNN and borrower could be strong pickups.

  9. #29
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    Re: [Brainstorming] Rogue Stompy / Steal Stompy

    Quote Originally Posted by Reeplcheep View Post
    Do you think this mana base could support 1UU? TNN and borrower could be strong pickups.
    Maybe. Worth testing. TNN is very strong with Cloak and Oona's Blackguard. It also makes prowling Earwig Squad even easier out of the board.

    Quote Originally Posted by Reeplcheep View Post
    Edit: on the slowness of notion thief: narset is slower out of urza decks and is fine disruption there. Perhaps the nonbo with chalice thing is an argument to running only thorn and 3ball not chalice?
    In my test games, it was a combination of the slowness and nonbo. When I had Chalice or even Thorn or 3ball, opponent is resolving many fewer Brainstorms, so there are fewer scenarios where it's worth leaving 4 mana open vs casting something on mainphase or boasting Varragoth. When I didn't have a prison piece, the blue player can too easily cast spells to efficiently interact with 4-mana plays. Vs nonblue decks it would be dead. Maybe Thief in the board?

    In those Urza decks Narset isn't just disruption, it's "win the game" off Echo. It also digs. Narset has text in all matchups, while Thief has no text in most nonblue matchups. If we aren't running something like the Hull-Day combo, it's not comparable.

    Chalice is too good to give up. If it's a choice between Thief and Chalice, Chalice should win.

  10. #30

    Re: [Brainstorming] Rogue Stompy / Steal Stompy

    Hmm maybe we trim the notion thief. Even stronger than tnn with cloak and dagger is cold-eye selkie if we can afford to cast it.

  11. #31

    Re: [Brainstorming] Rogue Stompy / Steal Stompy


  12. #32
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    Re: [Brainstorming] Rogue Stompy / Steal Stompy

    Can't tell what the Reddit deck is trying to do. OP first needs a more focused plan.

    As we discussed earlier, Thieves' Guild Enforcer is a huge nonbo with Dauthi Voidwalker and Leyline of the Void. Enforcer is not good enough to play based on its mill alone as a vanilla 1/1, only if the mill makes it a 3/2 deathtouch. Either Enforcer or Voidwalker, not both together. The deck needs to pick a direction.

    In the current meta, Voidwalker seems better (DRC, Murktide, Uro, Loam, Reclaimer+Knight, combo). Starting shell:
    4 Dark Ritual
    4 Dauthi Voidwalker
    4 Opposition Agent
    4 Thoughtseize
    4 Hymn to Tourach
    0 Thieves' Guild Enforcer

    Then the deck needs removal if it plans on playing as a fair deck vs all these Ragavans and Murktides. 4-7 slots of some mix of Fatal Push, Eliminate, Sudden Edict and/or Snuff Out.

    For the remaining slots it depends if OP wants to focus on Tribal, discard, Stompy, Deadguy?

    For the tribal plan, Oona's Blackguard, Bitterblossom, Earwig Squad...

    For a discard plan, Tinybones is OK but really depends on having a repeatable discard outlet. Oona's Blackguard isn't enough. Liliana of the Veil's +1 would help fuel Tinybones. Or you could just play Dark Confidant instead of Tinybones (if you play Bob, reduce other life loss cards).

    Maybe something like this
    //Creatures: 18
    4 Dauthi Voidwalker
    4 Dark Confidant
    2 Tourach, Dread Cantor
    4 Opposition Agent
    4 Grief

    //Spells: 20
    4 Dark Ritual
    4 Inquisition of Kozilek
    3 Fatal Push
    2 Reanimate
    4 Hymn to Tourach
    3 Sudden Edict

    //Artifacts: 2
    2 Umezawa's Jitte

    //Lands: 20
    4 Wasteland
    2 Castle Locthwain
    14 Swamp


    Jitte's lifegain and Inquisition over Thoughtseize because of Bob's life loss. GriefReanimate because why not?
    Last edited by FTW; 10-27-2021 at 06:41 PM.

  13. #33
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    Re: [Brainstorming] Rogue Stompy / Steal Stompy

    Scheming Symmetry is an excellent card along Thieves' Guild enforcer imo.
    Tutor for your wanted card and mill their choice with Enforcer.

    Scheming Symmetry is even better with Opposition Agent out.

    To have reliable milling effects I use Nightveil Specter ( can be ritualed out T1 ) and Codex Shredder

    Nighthawk Scavenger and maralen round out the core cards in my deck.

    I'm thinking of making this BR so I can add Kolaghan's Command ( excellent vs chalice, Vial, Urza land artifact etc and fills the GY for Enforcer and Scavenger. )
    and Blood Sun ( makes all fetchlands dead draws, stops Wasteland and Urza Land and to your advantage stops the damage from any painlands, like Ancient Tomb)

  14. #34
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    Re: [Brainstorming] Rogue Stompy / Steal Stompy

    That sounds like a coherent strategy, without the Voidwalkers. It just seemed bad next to Voidwalker + Leyline.

    Red splash also adds useful tools for mana denial and killing artifacts. You could push that exploit even further with Ragavan, Nimble Pilferer... (further invalidating Symmetry while also adding to the mana dominance plan)


    //Creatures: 21
    4 Ragavan, Nimble Pilferer
    4 Thieves' Guild Enforcer
    4 Dark Confidant
    4 Opposition Agent
    4 Nighthawk Scavenger
    1 Maralen of the Mornsong

    //Spells: 18
    4 Dark Ritual
    4 Lightning Bolt
    3 Inquisition of Kozilek
    3 Scheming Symmetry
    2 Kolaghan's Command
    2 Snuff Out

    //Artifacts: 1
    1 Umezawa's Jitte

    //Lands: 20
    4 Wasteland
    4 Bloodstained Mire
    2 Prismatic Vista
    4 Badlands
    4 Swamp
    2 Mountain

    //Rough Sideboard: 15
    2 Blood Moon
    1 Pyroblast
    1 Red Elemental Blast
    2 Grief
    1 Cabal Therapy
    1 Earwig Squad
    1 Liliana, the Last Hope
    2 Plague Engineer
    2 Faerie Macabre
    2 Leyline of the Void


    You could go -4 Dark Confidant +4 Oona's Blackguard for tribal synergy, but I suspect Bob is just better. Nighthawk lifegain does a lot to offset Bob.

    Edits:
    -1 Hymn +1 KComm
    -1 Bitterblossom +1 Maralen
    Bitterblossom was better with Oona's Blackguard in the deck (and perhaps cards like Cabal Therapy) but gets worse as the deck focus changes away from tribal discard.

    Edit2:
    -3 Hymn +3 Inquisition/Thoughtseize
    This gives more targeted G1 disruption, instead of trying to just grind out random 2-for-1. It's also better tempo to exploit Ragavan and/or leave Enforcer up, at the expense of losing harder to Chalice @ 1.

  15. #35
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    Re: [Brainstorming] Rogue Stompy / Steal Stompy

    Maralen ?
    If she doesn't fit in here, she fits nowhere.
    She's too good to pass up, I think.

    Just 1 Command ?
    I'd go at least two.
    Less Hymns. Dead card vs empty hand.
    Command is never useless.

    Ragavan is just perfect for this strategy.
    I'd advise 4 Symmetries.

  16. #36
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    Re: [Brainstorming] Rogue Stompy / Steal Stompy

    Quote Originally Posted by Borg View Post
    Maralen ?
    If she doesn't fit in here, she fits nowhere.
    She's too good to pass up, I think.

    Just 1 Command ?
    I'd go at least two.
    Less Hymns. Dead card vs empty hand.
    Command is never useless.
    Good points. I guess 1-of Maralen for when you have Opposition Agent (tutorable with Symmetry). More than one seems terrible because it's bad on its own.

    I edited for -1 Hymn +1 Command.

    Attacking their top of library through multiple means is strong. If you just had mill (Enforcer), they can tutor for Uro and punish you for milling them. But if you can also threaten to Dash Ragavan then this decision isn't so easy.

  17. #37
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    Re: [Brainstorming] Rogue Stompy / Steal Stompy

    Quote Originally Posted by FTW View Post
    Good points. I guess 1-of Maralen for when you have Opposition Agent (tutorable with Symmetry). More than one seems terrible because it's bad on its own.

    I edited for -1 Hymn +1 Command.
    Off course, 1 is enough.

    Not 100% sold on the Hymns though.
    I think thoughtseize is more useful to peek into opponent's and remove card of your choice rather than 2 randoms before playing one of your key cards.
    The lifeloss could be made up by the Scavenger and Jitte.

  18. #38
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    Re: [Brainstorming] Rogue Stompy / Steal Stompy

    Yeah, maybe Thoughtseize/Inquisition is better to have more targetted disruption. It helps Ragavan connect and gives better G1 against combo.

    Quote Originally Posted by Borg View Post
    Ragavan is just perfect for this strategy.
    I'd advise 4 Symmetries.
    Symmetry is a very high-risk high-reward card.

    The ceiling is insane (with Opposition Agent) = "B, put Maralen on top of library: exile any card from opponent's library. You may cast it ignoring colored mana requirements. At the beginning of your next precombat main phase, win the game if your life total is above 6".

    But it can backfire. If they Bolt your Opposition Agent, ambush block your Ragavan, or Brainstorm in response to mill... it can go very wrong. I tried to mitigate the downside by running 12 enablers + SB Grief to pitch it. Still, 4 copies seems aggressive. I'd start with fewer, test many matches, and see how it does.

  19. #39
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    Re: [Brainstorming] Rogue Stompy / Steal Stompy

    Quote Originally Posted by FTW View Post
    Attacking their top of library through multiple means is strong. If you just had mill (Enforcer), they can tutor for Uro and punish you for milling them. But if you can also threaten to Dash Ragavan then this decision isn't so easy.
    Nightveil Specter is a 1-off in my deck because he can be ritualed T1 and he can exile the top every turn.
    3cc is a lot though.
    But maybe instead of a 4th Ragavan.

  20. #40
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    Re: [Brainstorming] Rogue Stompy / Steal Stompy

    Quote Originally Posted by Borg View Post
    Nightveil Specter is a 1-off in my deck because he can be ritualed T1 and he can exile the top every turn.
    3cc is a lot though.
    But maybe instead of a 4th Ragavan.
    Ragavan can do the same thing on T1 without needing Ritual, while also making Lotus Petals. It can also be dashed with haste the turn you cast Symmetry, if you need an immediate surprise exile.

    Specter's only advantage is evasion, at the cost of needing Ritual or being slow. But if you don't have to spend a Ritual, you have +1 card to deal with their blocker/removal (Bolt, Thoughtseize, Snuff Out, Grief). So I just maximized 0-1 mana interaction that pushes Ragavan through. That seems to be how to win at Legacy, until they ban it.

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