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Thread: Ashiok Lantern

  1. #1

    Ashiok Lantern

    Hi guys! After reading this article on Zac Elsic's Legacy Lantern deck, toying around with my Dragon Shredder deck (which is actually really good) and some great advice from some members here on the forum I came up with an interesting idea.

    Although it appears that Lantern decks in Legacy have been played in the past, it seems they haven't really been able to stick around in the top 8 notch. My idea comes from Zac Elsic's basic shell, Energy Field + Rest in Peace soft lock, and Rest in Peace + Helm of Obedience win con, but with Ashiok, Dream Render / Opposition Agent synergies.

    Since some of you (FTW / Reeple) were recommending Scheming Symmetry in my Dragon Shredder deck because of it's synergy with Codex Shredder and after some excellent advice from my co-brewer and best bud Schlieb. I across the idea that we could really abuse Scheming Symmetry by adding more cards to support it such as Ashiok, Dream Render.

    Combine all this with Terminus (recommended by my bro) and we have what appears on paper to be a potentially decent Legacy Lantern deck. The icing on the cake is that Ashiok creates dead cards, fetchlands and tutors. Dead cards are great with Lantern of Insight and Codex Shredder on the table and makes controlling your opponent's top deck that much easier. Not to mention, all of these cards with the exception of a couple are great on their own such as Ashiok and Leyline of the Void. The only reason I'm not wanting to run Opposition Agent instead of Ashiok is that he is a nombo with Terminus.

    I would love some help developing this deck. As you can see, there are a ton of synergies here. This is my proposed list, and yes of course it isn't tuned at all:

    Ashiok Lantern 60

    Top Deck Control: 12
    4x Lantern of Insight
    2x Field of Dreams
    4x Codex Shredder
    2x Pyxis of Pandemonium / Ghoulcaller's Bell

    Win Con: 6
    4x Leyline of the Void
    1x Rest in Peace
    1x Helm of Obedience

    Soft Lock: 3
    3x Energy Field

    Utility / Search / Removal / Synergy: 19
    3x Ashiok, Dream Render / Opposition Agent
    3x Scheming Symmetry
    4x Brainstorm
    4x Ponder
    3x Terminus
    2x Oblivion Ring

    Mana Sources: 20
    3x Ancient Tomb
    4x Flooded Strand
    1x Marsh Flats
    4x Polluted Delta
    4x Underground Sea
    4x Tundra

    Some other cards I would like to see in this deck. Counterbalance, Mystic Sanctuary and Force of Will
    "WaaaauuugghhhaaaauuugghhhaauuugghhhaaauuugghhhW" -Chewbacca

  2. #2

    Re: Ashiok Lantern

    Another idea. Unlike Codex Shredder, cards like Pyxis of Pandemonium and Ghoulcaller's Bell aren't that great with with Scheming Symmetry. Casting Scheming Symmetry and tutoring up a card and then using Ghoulcaller's Bell really only forces both players to mill whatever cards they searched for. But what if we play a singleton card that is better in the graveyard. The first thing that came to my mind is Hogaak, Arisen Necropolis. I also thought of Bridge from Below but we're essentially creatureless. Thoughts?

    [EDIT] Oh wait. That has bad synergy with Leyline of the Void.

    [EDIT] Oh wait again. I don't think Ashiok will work. He says spells and abilities "opponent's control" can't cause their controller to search their librarys. So maybe Op Agent instead.
    "WaaaauuugghhhaaaauuugghhhaauuugghhhaaauuugghhhW" -Chewbacca

  3. #3

    Re: Ashiok Lantern

    Okay, so I played a more correct variant of this deck last night and had really good results. I will also point out that it might be thee most fun I've ever had playing Magic. We weren't keeping track of our results but I had great match ups against Esper Vial, Sharkstill and Delver. I think the route I was trying to go with when creating this deck was to abuse Scheming Symmetry + Terminus / Codex / Opposition Agent / Ashiok. The original thread, when I was writing it, had Op Agent. Then I realized he had bad synergy with Terminus. So I looked for an alternative and changed it last minute to Ashiok, Dream Render. After I posted the thread I realized he didn't work either.

    I wish I would have waited before posting because I actually discovered what I think I was looking for the entire time, and that is Psychic Surgery. This card is nuts here and just gets even crazier when multiple copies hit the board. It's almost as if it was created just for this deck. It not only has crazy synergy with Scheming Symmetry it will make your opponent think twice before they fetch a land or even tutor for anything as it really makes your job of stacking their top deck with shitty cards even better.

    The original list (above), was just theoretical. I had some stupid cards in there such as Ancient Tomb / Ashiok etc but I think I have the beginnings of an actual really good list. I know that nobody responded to my original first two posts so if nobody responds to this one I'll just let the thread die and continue working on this deck on my own. However, I'm hoping that some of you will collaborate and help me tune this deck.

    Two things I need help with. I need a good secondary win con. And I need / want to abuse Psychic Surgery even more than I already am. Right now I feel confident about the RiP / Helm win con. Helm is even decent on it's own being that it's another Codex Shredder (albeit an expensive one to cast) but the deck needs a secondary win con in the event it fails / gets countered / Thoughtsiezed etc.. You can actually just deck your opponent with Codex Shredder, which I did a few times without the help of any other cards. But this route makes for extremely long games.

    Right now, for the lack of a better win con I'm running Court of Cunning. I am loving this card here! Sadly though, since we aren't running creatures my opponent can easily become the monarch and we don't want that. So I'm thinking that there HAS to be another / better win con out there. Preferable one that forces our opponent to shuffle so that we can abuse Psychic Surgery even more and preferably one that is not a creature or planeswalker. Planeswalkers are easily killed since we don't run creatures to block with. Creatures are bad because of the Terminus nombo. So what I think we're really looking for is either an enchantment or artifact. And again, preferably one that makes the opponent shuffle so we can abuse Psychic Surgery even more than we already are.

    I began to look up cards that can force my opponent to shuffle every turn. One I found, that I forgot about, is Soldier of Fortune. He's not a great win con, but wow! He's crazy good with Psychic Surgery! Sadly though, he's both a creature and he's off color.

    Another one I thought of was Words of War. It is an enchantment which is what we want but not only is it off color it also doesn't preferably force our opponent to shuffle.

    Other than that I thought of Sphinx's Tutelage / Teferi's Tutelage etc.. but another problem I have with cards like this and Court of Cunning is that they mess with my opponent's top deck. This is a problem because while playing the deck, you are working hard to control that.

    We have two open flex slots for another win con in place of Court of Cunning. What should it be??

    Here's a list of just some of the synergies and combos:

    Scheming Symmetry + Psychic Surgery (force opponent to search / shuffle thus triggering Psychic Surgery and exile whatever they searched for)

    Scheming Symmetry + Codex Shredder (tutor up what you want, shred opponent's search to the yard)

    Scheming Symmetry + Terminus (put Terminus on the top of your deck and cast it for it's Miracle cost: W)

    Shuffle effects + Psychic Surgery (they fetch their land/card but we get top deck manipulation)

    Our shuffle effects + Lantern of Insight / Field of Dreams (top deck control)

    Lantern of Insight + Codex Shredder / Pyxis of Pandemonium (top deck control)

    Rest in Peace + Energry Field (soft lock)

    Rest in Peace + Helm of Obedience (win con)

    Rest in Peace = Grave Hate

    Anyway, here is the proposed list. And by the way this deck is an absolute blast to play!! And it's actually really really strong!

    Psychic Lantern: 60 cards

    Lock down / Disruption: 12 Cards

    4x Lantern of Insight
    2x Field of Dreams
    4x Codex Shredder
    2x Pyxis of Pandemonium

    Removal / Control: 17 Cards

    4x Psychic Surgery
    4x Rest in Peace
    3x Energy Field
    2x Terminus
    2x Ensnaring Bridge
    2x Seal of Cleansing (this could be Oblivion Ring etc..)

    Search and Destroy: 10 Cards

    4x Brainstorm
    2x Ponder
    3x Scheming Symmetry
    1x Search for Azcanta

    Win Con: 3 Cards

    2x Court of Cunning
    1x Helm of Obedience

    Mana: 18 Cards

    4x Flooded Strand
    4x Polluted Delta
    2x Scalding Tarn
    4x Tundra
    4x Underground Sea

    Sideboard:

    ???
    ???
    ???


    I really want / wanted to make space or test the following cards, but couldn't find the room:
    Enlightened Tutor
    Force of Will
    Counterbalance
    Misinformation
    Agonizing Memories
    Scroll Rack
    Ancestral Knowledge
    Lim Dul's Vault
    Bane Alley Broker
    Eternal Scourge
    Misthollow Griffin

    [EDIT: I had Sea Gate Wreckage then realized it doesn't work because we have no sources of colorless mana. I added Search for Azcanta in it's place. Firstly because I never used Sea Gate Wreckage even once while testing (not even for mana). I think we're safe at 18 land. And secondly, Search for Azcanta, even if it never gets flipped is the perfect fit for controlling my top deck.
    "WaaaauuugghhhaaaauuugghhhaauuugghhhaaauuugghhhW" -Chewbacca

  4. #4

    Re: Ashiok Lantern

    Really liking this list, but not really sold on the cantrips and the alternate wincon that isn’t Helm.

    In all honesty, I think running Sorcerous Spyglass or Pithing Needle in those slots puts you in a better position to keep your opponent from breaking your lock. Planeswalkers are devastating to you, so making any planeswalker who isn’t Karn nearly useless is a big difference maker for you. I would even consider speeding up your deck with Lotus Petals or Mox Opals because dumping your hand and going hellbent would serve you better than neary any other deck out there.

  5. #5
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    Re: Ashiok Lantern

    I like where this is going.

    I was playing a similar UW RipHelm list before, only with more UW control cards where you have the Lantern combo. My version had 3 ETutor, but Symmetry is filling that role for you already. Since most of your deck is enchants and artifacts though, maybe you could just run ETutor instead and then not need black mana. Do you need black for anything else?

    Lantern combo has potentially really good synergy with RipField because you can use it to protect the lock, and then the lock does the rest. That's sort of what the Modern deck does with Bridge, only RipField is a better version of that.

    Counterbalance would be amazing at protecting your lock and you have great topdeck control tools to enable it. I would play at least 3 Counterbalance main.

    +3 CB
    -3 Psychic Surgery

    Psychic Surgery has some neat interactions with the deck, but over a long game it won't extract that many cards and you're spending a full card slot on it. I'm not sold on it. Was it that good in your games? If you run ETutor instead of Symmetry then you need Surgery even less. Just play Counterbalance and then you can counter half the things they draw.

    Jace, the Mind Sculptor can also fateseal their top card. Seems much better than Surgery and can double as another win condition. Jace is good again now that Oko is banned. You're a bit weak to creatures, but Bridge and Terminus protect him.

    Instead of 2 Seal of Cleansing, maybe 1-2 Detention Sphere to hit more things. I also like Unexpectedly Absent for X=0, which is very strong when they shuffle or with your topdeck mill, and it can also be used to protect a combo piece from removal or turn on Counterbalance.

    Manabase could use some work to beat nonbasic hate. If staying 3 colors maybe
    -2 Tundra
    -2 USea
    +2 Island
    +1 Plains
    +1 Swamp

    If you cut Symmetry and go to UW then
    -2 Tundra
    -4 USea
    +3 Island
    +2 Plains
    +1 Karakas

    You might want the 19th land too.
    Last edited by FTW; 03-08-2021 at 03:43 PM.

  6. #6

    Re: Ashiok Lantern

    Hi guys! I'm super glad that someone decided to respond to this thread. This thread is a mess and I rushed it out too soon. I've been doing a lot of brewing since I originally posted this and the deck has improved immensely! However some of your recommendations have made me want to test some other options. Pithing Needle and Counterbalance. I will be testing against some top tier decks on Friday and will keep you guys posted. I will also test any of your recommendations. FYI, it's hard to goldfish a deck like this but from the play testing it feels super smooth. So lets gets started.

    Quote Originally Posted by mistervader View Post
    Really liking this list, but not really sold on the cantrips and the alternate wincon that isn’t Helm.
    Thank you Mistervader! Yes, I agree. Court of Cunning is a shitty win con. At the time I was looking for a win con that was not a creature. I don't want to Terminus my win con to the bottom of my library and also I don't want my opponent's removal spells to finally have a target. I did however find a win con that I feel is correct. There could be something better but I think Mechanized Production is it.

    Mechanized Production + Lantern of Insight / Codex Shredder. Enchant either Lantern or Shredder with Mechanized Production and you can pretty much completely lock your opponent out. Pick apart your opponent's deck by casting it on Lantern with Psychic Surgery in play. Use it's copies' secondary ability to force your opponent to shuffle thus dissecting their top deck every turn. Or, cast it on Codex Shredder and get multiple Shredders over the next few turns. The more Shredders the more control. Win with it by either hard lock decking your opponent or by it's 8 artifacts rule.

    Another option is Cursed Scroll. Getting hellbent as you mentioned isn't that difficult. It can also wipe out pesky bears and deal some damage to planeswalkers.

    Quote Originally Posted by mistervader View Post
    In all honesty, I think running Sorcerous Spyglass or Pithing Needle in those slots puts you in a better position to keep your opponent from breaking your lock. Planeswalkers are devastating to you, so making any planeswalker who isn’t Karn nearly useless is a big difference maker for you.
    Good call. Spyglass or Needle should be in the 75.

    Quote Originally Posted by mistervader View Post
    I would even consider speeding up your deck with Lotus Petals or Mox Opals because dumping your hand and going hellbent would serve you better than neary any other deck out there.
    I originally wanted to run some ramp. Sadly, there's not enough artifacts to support Mox Opal. Mox Diamond is out because there isn't enough land. Chrome Mox and Lotus Petal could work but room in this deck is really tight. I finally gave up on ramp after looking at Zac Elsic's rampless build which he did really good with.

    Quote Originally Posted by FTW View Post
    I was playing a similar UW RipHelm list before, only with more UW control cards where you have the Lantern combo. My version had 3 ETutor, but Symmetry is filling that role for you already. Since most of your deck is enchants and artifacts though, maybe you could just run ETutor instead and then not need black mana. Do you need black for anything else?
    I think one of the reasons I originally wanted to run Scheming Symmetry is that I really liked the idea of running 6x Terminus, and of course that I can grab any card I need. Another reason is that I originally wanted to run Op Agent to create dead cards. After I found Pyschic Surgery I decided to move forward with this idea. You are right though, I'm only running black for Scheming Symmetry. Not sure if this is correct but grabbing any card from the deck and 6x Terminus in a creatureless deck feels really attractive to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by FTW View Post
    Counterbalance would be amazing at protecting your lock and you have great topdeck control tools to enable it. I would play at least 3 Counterbalance main.

    +3 CB
    -3 Psychic Surgery
    This is my thought exactly! I'll be testing this deck against some decent decks in the gauntlet in a couple of days. If my Psychic Surgery + Scheming Symmetry idea doesn't work too well then this exactly the route I will go.

    Quote Originally Posted by FTW View Post
    Psychic Surgery has some neat interactions with the deck, but over a long game it won't extract that many cards and you're spending a full card slot on it. I'm not sold on it. Was it that good in your games? If you run ETutor instead of Symmetry then you need Surgery even less. Just play Counterbalance and then you can counter half the things they draw.
    I haven't really tested this idea yet but I'm curious. I'm really attracted to trying to think outside of the box and trying to get something new into Lantern. Who knows though. It might just suck. It does seem that it would be nice to drop this turn two to punish fetchlands, but the best part about Psychic Surgery is that it does exactly what this deck wants to do, which is pick apart my opponent's top deck.

    I also have a lot of ways to force my opponent to shuffle and the new list has 12x cards that do just that:

    4x Portent This in place of Ponder from the original build. Same card except you can target your opponent and either arrange their top deck or force them to shuffle, thus activating Psychic Surgery. Aaand you still get to draw your card.

    4x Scheming Symmetry 4x Vampiric Tutors is awesome! Having 6x Terminus is the icing on the cake. Plus it makes them shuffle.

    4x Lantern of Insight As long as I have a Field of Dreams or another Lantern in play, each duplicate Lantern can force the opponent to shuffle with it's secondary ability.

    I actually considered running Soldier of Fortune over Pyxis of Pandemonium. Neither is super awesome with Lantern but both are decent. The downside to Soldier of Fortune is that it is a creature and that turns on all of your opponent's removal spells. Also it's bad with Terminus. How sweet would it be if it was an artifact though???

    Quote Originally Posted by FTW View Post
    Instead of 2 Seal of Cleansing, maybe 1-2 Detention Sphere to hit more things. I also like Unexpectedly Absent for X=0, which is very strong when they shuffle or with your topdeck mill, and it can also be used to protect a combo piece from removal or turn on Counterbalance.
    I'm currently running Oblivion Ring and Banishing Light. Perhaps Detention Sphere is better. I should probably be running that instead. Unexpectedly Absent is what Zach Elsic was running. Looks dope! Especially in the Miracles list.

    Yes some basic lands would be good in there as well. I have felt comfortable with 18, enough so that I dropped it to 17. Should probably bump that back up though. Anyway, here's what I will be testing on Friday. I will probably make upgrades such as Detention Sphere at a later date. If it doesn't operate the way I'm expecting I'm going to try the Miracles route.


    LANTERN SURGERY: 60 cards


    Control: Board: (14)

    3x Energy Field
    4x Rest in Peace
    2x Ensnaring Bridge
    2x Terminus
    1x Banishing Light
    1x Oblivion Ring

    Control: Top Deck: (16)

    4x Codex Shredder
    2x Field of Dreams
    4x Lantern of Insight
    2x Pyxis of Pandemonium
    3x Psychic Surgery

    Search / Shuffle: (11)

    4x Brainstorm
    4x Portent
    4x Scheming Symmetry

    Win: (2)

    1x Helm of Obedience
    1x Mechanized Production

    Mana: (17)

    3x Island
    4x Flooded Strand
    4x Polluted Delta
    4x Tundra
    3x Underground Sea


    Sideboard (15)

    1x Flusterstorm
    2x Pithing Needle
    1x Planar Void
    1x Spell Pierce
    2x Swords to Plowshares
    2x Eliminate
    2x Meddling Mage
    1x Banishing Light
    1x Oblivion Ring
    1x Peacekeeper
    1x Force of Will
    "WaaaauuugghhhaaaauuugghhhaauuugghhhaaauuugghhhW" -Chewbacca

  7. #7

    Re: Ashiok Lantern

    For ramp, I’ve generally done fine with 10-12 (including the colorless one) artifact lands and 4 of either Mishra’s Bauble or Welding Jar. That generally allowed me to run Mox Opal back when i was playing this deck while frigging Top was legal.

    Is there any new card that does what Leovold does, ie limit card draw? If there’s a 2 or 3 cc card that can do it for you that isn’t Leovold or Chains of Mephistopheles, perfect. I have only been passively keeping up with newer releases. LOL.

    That being said, Mechanized Production is nice, but far from perfect. At 4CC, you need something more impactful. Jace would fit better, as would even Teferi Time Raveler or heck, Big Teferi.

    I’m also wary of the new stuff that didn’t exist when I played this deck: Collector Ouphe and Force Of Vigor. Really need a way to handle that stuff.

  8. #8

    Re: Ashiok Lantern

    Quote Originally Posted by mistervader View Post
    For ramp, I’ve generally done fine with 10-12 (including the colorless one) artifact lands and 4 of either Mishra’s Bauble or Welding Jar. That generally allowed me to run Mox Opal back when i was playing this deck while frigging Top was legal.
    I could possibly pull this off if I ran artifact lands. But the deck is really tight.

    Quote Originally Posted by mistervader View Post
    Is there any new card that does what Leovold does, ie limit card draw? If there’s a 2 or 3 cc card that can do it for you that isn’t Leovold or Chains of Mephistopheles, perfect. I have only been passively keeping up with newer releases. LOL.
    Hullbreacher certainly fits that bill. Could be very interesting! Maybe on the side?

    Quote Originally Posted by mistervader View Post
    That being said, Mechanized Production is nice, but far from perfect. At 4CC, you need something more impactful. Jace would fit better, as would even Teferi Time Raveler or heck, Big Teferi.
    Yeah, it's not amazing but I'm not sure there is something better. Jace is damn good though too as long as we can protect him with Ensnaring Bridge. Also, what were your thoughts on Cursed Scroll? I think it deserve to be tested. You can get hellbent fairly easily even without ramp. Seems to be a great fit here.

    One build I certainly want to try is what FTW was talking about: Counterbalance I know it's not as good as Top but has anyone tried Scroll Rack? I get you can only activate it once per turn, can't use itself to counter 1-mana spells with counterbalance etc... but it interacts decently with both Counterbalance, Terminus and Codex Shredder.

    Here's a rough draft of what I was thinking in that build.

    COUNTERBALANCE LANTERN: 60 cards

    Control: Board: (14)

    3x Energy Field
    4x Rest in Peace
    2x Ensnaring Bridge
    2x Terminus
    2x Detention Sphere

    Control: Top Deck: (16)

    4x Codex Shredder
    2x Field of Dreams
    4x Lantern of Insight
    2x Pyxis of Pandemonium
    3x Counterbalance

    Search / Shuffle: (11)

    4x Brainstorm
    4x Ponder
    2x Enlightened Tutor
    2x Scroll Rack

    Win: (2)

    1x Helm of Obedience
    1x Mechanized Production, Jace, the Mind Sculptor, Cursed Scroll?

    Mana: (17)

    6x Island
    4x Flooded Strand
    4x Polluted Delta
    4x Tundra

    Sideboard (15)

    1x Flusterstorm
    1x Spell Pierce
    1x Force of Will
    3x Pithing Needle
    2x Hullbreacher
    2x Swords to Plowshares
    1x Eliminate
    2x Nevermore
    1x Detention Sphere
    1x Peacekeeper
    Last edited by Laser Brains; 03-12-2021 at 12:10 AM.
    "WaaaauuugghhhaaaauuugghhhaauuugghhhaaauuugghhhW" -Chewbacca

  9. #9
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    Re: Ashiok Lantern

    I really like the Counterbalance version.

    It doesn't have Top, but with the Lantern combo + cantrips + ETutor + Scroll Rack, this has to be the best Counterbalance engine in Legacy.

    Now using Lantern combo to defend Counterbalance & the RipField lock looks strong. Your primary locks control both the stack and your life total. You just need to mill their few answers to your multiple locks, before you can assemble Helm to win.

    I'd pick Jace for the wincon because of its synergy with both Lantern combo (fateseal if they have a good card) and Counterbalance (brainstorm your own deck).

    I would also make some modifications to your manabase, since you can run more basics in a 2 color deck.

    4 Flooded Strand
    3 Prismatic Vista
    2 Polluted Delta
    2 Tundra
    4 Island
    2 Plains

    15 ways to get blue
    13 ways to get Island
    13 ways to get white
    9 ways to get Plains

    This should give you all the right mana you need, but lose less to nonbasic hate. You can even consider running Back to Basics in the SB.

    Instead of Peacekeeper (which turns on their removal and ties up your mana), Moat or Web of Inertia?

    Instead of Hullbreacher, you probably want Narset, Parter of Veils. Although maybe Hullbreacher is good if they board out removal.

  10. #10

    Re: Ashiok Lantern

    Quote Originally Posted by FTW View Post
    I really like the Counterbalance version.
    I do too! It's not what I was intending originally but I have to agree. The Psychic Surgery idea I still think is cool, but this version looks to be more competitive. I am really still missing the super awesome Scheming Symmetry + Terminus combo. All in all, this does look better, more controllish and easier on the mana base.

    Quote Originally Posted by FTW View Post
    It doesn't have Top, but with the Lantern combo + cantrips + ETutor + Scroll Rack, this has to be the best Counterbalance engine in Legacy.
    Scroll Rack certainly is not as good as Sensei's Divining Top here but it's still really really good with Counterbalance, all of the shuffle effects, Terminus and Codex Shredder.

    Quote Originally Posted by FTW View Post
    I'd pick Jace for the wincon because of its synergy with both Lantern combo (fateseal if they have a good card) and Counterbalance (brainstorm your own deck).
    I like Jace the more I think about it. He does literally everything we want to do, even if he isn't the win con, which he can be. He does need to be protected though which makes Ensnaring Bridge critical.

    Mechanized Production actually doesn't even work in this deck at all. I missed that when I copy and pasted the old list and made changes. It works with the Codex Shredders, but not with the Lantern combo which needs Psychic Surgery.

    Cursed Scroll I personally think should be at least tested. It's very mana intensive and slow though. But late-ish game it might not matter if it's mana intensive.

    However, If you look at Zac Elsic's build, he didn't even run a secondary win con. Helm or decking your opponent are the only two ways to win.

    Quote Originally Posted by FTW View Post
    I would also make some modifications to your manabase, since you can run more basics in a 2 color deck.
    I back this as well. I literally copy and pasted the mana base from my old build. I was just trying to get a rough draft down on paper. Your mana base looks great! I'm going to use this. Karakas should be in the 75?

    Quote Originally Posted by FTW View Post
    Instead of Peacekeeper (which turns on their removal and ties up your mana), Moat or Web of Inertia ?
    I'm sure you knew this as you were typing it. But why not just run another Energy Field instead of Web of Inertia?

    This brings me to another question. There's a couple of options:

    A). Should we scrap both Ensnaring Bridges for a 1x Moat and 1x Humility mix? Both combo together awesomely and can be tutored up depending on your situation. We are already hogging up our 4 drop slots so I'm thinking no, but worth exploring.

    B). What about thee old Null Brooch + Ensnaring Bridge combo? Our 4 drop slots are pretty high, but a lone Brooch is tempting. It's a little more solid of a lock than Counterbalance but it takes a lot longer to set up due to the cc.

    If we add Moat + Scroll Rack this deck is starting to look a lot like a Parfait meets Lantern meets Miracles. I like this!!
    "WaaaauuugghhhaaaauuugghhhaauuugghhhaaauuugghhhW" -Chewbacca

  11. #11
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    Re: Ashiok Lantern

    Quote Originally Posted by Laser Brains View Post
    Karakas should be in the 75?
    Yeah, you could either make room for it main or SB


    Quote Originally Posted by Laser Brains View Post
    I'm sure you knew this as you were typing it. But why not just run another Energy Field instead of Web of Inertia?
    I assumed Peacekeeper was in the SB to stop "attacks" triggers like Emrakul's Annihilator and Uro's draw. Energy Field prevents damage but not that. I always had a SB tutorable Web of Inertia to stop attacks if needed. Moat stops a lot too, though it doesn't deal with Emrakul. You do already have Bridge though, so maybe this is just a 3rd Bridge.


    Quote Originally Posted by Laser Brains View Post
    A). Should we scrap both Ensnaring Bridges for a 1x Moat and 1x Humility mix? Both combo together awesomely and can be tutored up depending on your situation. We are already hogging up our 4 drop slots so I'm thinking no, but worth exploring.
    Bridge seems better. Humility is much better in a high-curve manland deck.

    Quote Originally Posted by Laser Brains View Post
    B). What about thee old Null Brooch + Ensnaring Bridge combo? Our 4 drop slots are pretty high, but a lone Brooch is tempting. It's a little more solid of a lock than Counterbalance but it takes a lot longer to set up due to the cc.
    Null Brooch can be slow and risky at times. But you could make room for a 1-of Brooch tutorable by ETutor.

  12. #12

    Re: Ashiok Lantern

    Quote Originally Posted by FTW View Post
    Yeah, you could either make room for it main or SB

    I assumed Peacekeeper was in the SB to stop "attacks" triggers like Emrakul's Annihilator and Uro's draw. Energy Field prevents damage but not that. I always had a SB tutorable Web of Inertia to stop attacks if needed. Moat stops a lot too, though it doesn't deal with Emrakul. You do already have Bridge though, so maybe this is just a 3rd Bridge.

    Bridge seems better. Humility is much better in a high-curve manland deck.

    Null Brooch can be slow and risky at times. But you could make room for a 1-of Brooch tutorable by ETutor.
    All great points there! I'm going to skip Karakas for now. You've got me sold on Web of Inertia, and I think we might need a bit more creature control. So I think I'll run one main as the third Ensnaring Bridge in case of Meddling Mage etc.. But yes that was why I was running Peacekeeper. Web is so much better.

    Null Brooch on the side. I think Counterbalance should already fill this roll main deck. I'll be testing this in paper today with some proxies and report my results.

    So here's the list I will be testing. Does this look correct? I cut a Ponder for Web and fixed the mana base.

    COUNTERBALANCE LANTERN 1.25: 60 cards

    Control: Board: (14)

    3x Energy Field
    4x Rest in Peace
    2x Ensnaring Bridge
    1x Web of Inertia
    2x Terminus
    2x Detention Sphere

    Control: Top Deck: (16)

    4x Codex Shredder
    2x Field of Dreams
    4x Lantern of Insight
    2x Pyxis of Pandemonium
    3x Counterbalance

    Search / Shuffle: (11)

    4x Brainstorm
    3x Ponder
    2x Enlightened Tutor
    2x Scroll Rack

    Win: (2)

    1x Helm of Obedience
    1x Jace, the Mind Sculptor

    Mana: (17)

    4x Flooded Strand
    3x Prismatic Vista
    2x Polluted Delta
    2x Tundra
    4x Island
    2x Plains

    Sideboard (15)

    1x Flusterstorm
    1x Spell Pierce
    1x Force of Will
    3x Pithing Needle
    2x Narset, Parter of Veils
    2x Swords to Plowshares
    1x Eliminate
    2x Nevermore
    1x Detention Sphere
    1x Null Brooch

    [EDIT]: I feel like I should add another land since I cut Ponder for a 3 cc card. Also considering Porphyry Nodes instead of Web.
    [EDIT]: Maybe 2x Counterbalance is plenty. Cut one and I can run both an extra land and a Web / Nodes.
    "WaaaauuugghhhaaaauuugghhhaauuugghhhaaauuugghhhW" -Chewbacca

  13. #13

    Re: Ashiok Lantern

    Porphyry Nodes seems fine to me.

    Having said that, Cursed Scroll is really a no-go because as kill conditions go, this one's just too slow to make a difference. If you can control your opponent for 10 turns to kill them with this, you probably have all but locked them out of the game already. While I like Humility, Bridge is just that much better, and there are very few relevant creatures where Humility would do something Bridge already couldn't.

    Peacekeeper is always good - from the board. Most decks see Lantern game 1, side out removal game 2, and just d'oh at the sight of PK or Meddling Mage.

    Also, I just remembered: as cool as Hullbreacher is, Narset, Parter of Veils is often just much better.

  14. #14
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    Re: Ashiok Lantern

    I'd keep the 3rd CB. I've had bad experiences with Porphyry Nodes and always ended up cutting it. In my experience, it's 1 turn too slow. They get 1 attack before it triggers. If they have multiple creatures, it may be several turns before it kills the "right" one. In the matchups you need it most tempo matters, and Nodes has bad tempo. You wish it was just another Terminus or Energy Field or DSphere, something that stabilizes immediately.

    The reason I don't like Peacekeeper is the upkeep. It ties up a lot of mana for a 17-land deck. Also it dies to your own Terminus and opponent may still keep in Bolts or Abrades. Web or Bridge seem better. Even if RiP is removed, Web sees their empty GY. Web is vulnerable to enchantment/artifact kill they bring in, but honestly, your whole deck is enchantments and artifacts so they're stretched thin.

    You don't necessarily need Web main because you already have Bridge main to stop Uro and Emrakul. You could put it in the SB and have the 4th Ponder main.

    Otherwise the MD looks tight. +/- a few slots that you'll only be able to tell from testing.

    SB could use some work.
    Eliminate is off color now.
    1 FoW? Usually a SB has 3-4 FoW or 0 FoW because you want it on turn 0. If you don't have the blue count, use Pierce or Fluster or Mindbreak.
    2 StP? Again this is a card you want early when you want it, so maybe 3-4 copies.

    Meddling Mage may be better than Nevermore for curve reasons.

    Edit: You can run Kaheera, the Orphanguard as a Companion for no cost.
    Last edited by FTW; 03-12-2021 at 02:41 PM.

  15. #15

    Re: Ashiok Lantern

    Okay, so I played this list today. It was very underwhelming. I got absolutely wrecked.

    First up I played against Sharkstill featuring Court of Grace, Replenish, Shark Typhoon etc.. It absolutely tore me to pieces. I believe we played either 4 or 5 games. I lost every game. First of all Lantern cannot compete when my opponent drops a second turn Standstill. I have to eventually cast a spell or he cycles Shark Typhoon. This loads his hand with more counter magic, removal, threats, value etc.. Second, Replenish plus Standstills in the yard etc.. He was also running Seal of Cleansing. This was one of his cheaper cc enchantments that helps him enable Serra's Sanctum. It kept recurring. I couldn't keep my lock pieces on the table.

    This deck was really strong though. After I got my ass kicked, I played against it (Sharkstill) with a fairly updated competitive D&T build and he smashed that too. These games were a train wreck.

    Next, I played against Urza Echoes (Artifacts Blue / Emry Stompy). This deck I LOVE, but hate playing against it. We played at least three games and again I lost every round.

    Although Lantern looks really tight on paper, I'm going to have to hang this deck. It certainly isn't it's time to shine and probably will never be a legacy archetype IMHO.

    I played my Dragon Shredder brew after that and won a handful of games! That deck was the one deck out of the session where I won a few games in a row. All in all it was a bad day for Magic.
    "WaaaauuugghhhaaaauuugghhhaauuugghhhaaauuugghhhW" -Chewbacca

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