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Thread: Strixhaven (Back to School[s of Magic] this April)

  1. #21

    Re: Strixhaven (Back to School[s of Magic] this April)

    Quote Originally Posted by FTW View Post
    Good thing no deck at all could profit off playing 12 Forces and become Tier 1. And that 80-card control has no chance of beating glass cannon combo by maindecking 7-8 Forces.
    Yes, but unironically.
    I even checked the latest challenge for 12 force...

  2. #22

    Re: Strixhaven (Back to School[s of Magic] this April)

    Hot take: gb command could revitalize BUG delver. The problem with the deck has always been lack of reach and this is the first legacy playable lightning helix (shitty as it may be) in those colours.

  3. #23

    Re: Strixhaven (Back to School[s of Magic] this April)

    Quote Originally Posted by FourDogsinaHorseSuit View Post
    Yes, but unironically.
    I even checked the latest challenge for 12 force...
    Heís talking about turbo Tibalt, which ran 4 fow 4 fob 4 misdirect before being banned.

  4. #24
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    Re: Strixhaven (Back to School[s of Magic] this April)

    Quote Originally Posted by Reeplcheep View Post
    Hot take: gb command could revitalize BUG delver. The problem with the deck has always been lack of reach and this is the first legacy playable lightning helix (shitty as it may be) in those colours.
    Collective Brutality disagrees in the strongest possible way.

    The problems BUG Delver had was that it's discard suite was worse than Probe/Therapy, into UR Delver was spamming PoP, into RUG Delver had Dreadhorde + Wrenn or Oko. So what they really need is to wake up and realize that life gain (Cling to Dust) is how they need to address their primary problem: enemy Bolts. Thoughtseize is the fundamental deckbuilding error.

  5. #25
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    Re: Strixhaven (Back to School[s of Magic] this April)

    Brutality always trades even though where this Witherbloom Command should usually 2-1. That being said, it being a Sorcery is a real hinderance still.

    I think it is definitely potentially playable, but I think we'll have to see how the meta looks to say if it is really good or just another fair option. If Miracles shapes up to be a real force, I am not sure this is where BUG wants to be to fight it, for example.
    "The Ancients teach us that if we can but last, we shall prevail."
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  6. #26
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    Re: Strixhaven (Back to School[s of Magic] this April)

    There's also a large number of Delver pilots playing the legacy has-been YP. At no point will this new card take a slot before Golgari Charm (which also hits B2B and Moon). You don't want to cast this new card anywhere near a Delver mirror.

  7. #27

    Re: Strixhaven (Back to School[s of Magic] this April)

    Quote Originally Posted by FTW View Post
    Good thing no deck at all could profit off playing 12 Forces and become Tier 1. And that 80-card control has no chance of beating glass cannon combo by maindecking 7-8 Forces.
    The issue is that obnoxious greed and catch-all countermagic aren't punished enough. The CMC1 uncounterable Elf is a step in the good direction but we need way, way more printings of the kind so that blue players actually think before automatically jamming 8+ cantrips and 6+ forces in their deck. Uncounterable Chalice or uncounterable Thalia would be a nice start. But knowing Wizards if we get that it'll probably be in blue lol

  8. #28

    Re: Strixhaven (Back to School[s of Magic] this April)

    Quote Originally Posted by Fox View Post
    There's also a large number of Delver pilots playing the legacy has-been YP. At no point will this new card take a slot before Golgari Charm (which also hits B2B and Moon). You don't want to cast this new card anywhere near a Delver mirror.
    Rebuy a wasteland, kill a young peezy is a crazy blow out in the mirror. Or win the goyf battle plus shock face. The fact that it also answers problematic permanents like vial, mox diamond, exploration, wishclaw talisman and can go face is gravy.

    W6 literally got banned for being too good in delver and this is 2 immediate W6 activations for the same price. How can it be unplayable?

    I tried to play collective brutality but itís so bad vs counter magic it is unplayable without gy/madness synergies. Like therapy in the post-probe era.

  9. #29

    Re: Strixhaven (Back to School[s of Magic] this April)

    Quote Originally Posted by chunderbucket View Post
    The issue is that obnoxious greed and catch-all countermagic aren't punished enough. The CMC1 uncounterable Elf is a step in the good direction but we need way, way more printings of the kind so that blue players actually think before automatically jamming 8+ cantrips and 6+ forces in their deck. Uncounterable Chalice or uncounterable Thalia would be a nice start. But knowing Wizards if we get that it'll probably be in blue lol
    Cantrips and forces are just the best thing to be doing in a vacuum. But without the ridiculous card advantage engines blue decks are quite beatable. D&T, nic fit, lands, gaak, TES all hard punish decks full of counters in their own way (at the cost of horrible combo mus)

  10. #30
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    Re: Strixhaven (Back to School[s of Magic] this April)

    Quote Originally Posted by Reeplcheep View Post
    Rebuy a wasteland, kill a young peezy is a crazy blow out in the mirror. Or win the goyf battle plus shock face. The fact that it also answers problematic permanents like vial, mox diamond, exploration, wishclaw talisman and can go face is gravy.

    W6 literally got banned for being too good in delver and this is 2 immediate W6 activations for the same price. How can it be unplayable?

    I tried to play collective brutality but itís so bad vs counter magic it is unplayable without gy/madness synergies. Like therapy in the post-probe era.
    Most of the functions offered by this new card are covered by Trophy or Decay. With the banning of Astrolabe, it's one corner case evaporated: it would have been better than Decay/Trophy at cleaning up an Astrolabe and an Ice-Fang.

    A critical mistake in approaching BUG Delver is to think your deck is relevant to the point that doing something harder matters at all. The main problems were *strategic* meaning they cannot be overcome. The strategy of BUG Delver is to jam 1 card combos; so when someone is jamming more and better 1-card combos (i.e. Probe/Therapy, Wrenn/Oko/DHA) you lose by default. These strategies are banned.

    The last problem is *tactical* - you lost DRS's lifegain and started dying to Delver with Bolt +/- PoP [primarily UR]. This new card fails to correct this tactical deficit (does not address UR Delver's onboard damage sources). Playing Thoughtseize inflames this deficit further.

    Reach does not matter. Fighting Lightning Bolt out of Delver is the single most important aspect to address for any potential new additions. This new BG card was dead on arrival, and the existence, without use, of Collective Brutality told you all you need to know.

  11. #31
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    Re: Strixhaven (Back to School[s of Magic] this April)

    Why are people comparing the new BG command with Brutality? This one can generate card advantage, Brutality can only generate card parity. This seems rather silly to compare (as I don't give a fuck about Delver), even if both can drain life or kill creatures.

  12. #32
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    Re: Strixhaven (Back to School[s of Magic] this April)

    Quote Originally Posted by Fox View Post
    Most of the functions offered by this new card are covered by Trophy or Decay. With the banning of Astrolabe, it's one corner case evaporated: it would have been better than Decay/Trophy at cleaning up an Astrolabe and an Ice-Fang.
    Once you consider that the metagame is no longer just Snow Island + Snow Forest.dec, there are a lot of relevant 2-for-1 cases

    vs D&T: Kill Vial + Mom/Thalia/Flickerwisp

    vs Esper Vial: Kill Vial + Soulherder/Flickerwisp/Recruiter/Strix

    vs Goblins: Kill Vial/Chalice + Lackey/WInstigator/dork or return Wasteland @ Caverns

    (remember Aether Vial now has text beyond "T: Attack for 3", and a single card that answers both Vial and Cavern does a lot for blue to swing the Vial matchups)

    vs Maverick: Kill Mom/mana dork/Hexdrinker/Thalia/Arbor + Sylvan/Jitte

    vs Delver: Kill unflipped Delver/Borrower/YP + return Wasteland/fetch (kill threat and don't lose the mana battle)

    vs Thalia Stompy: Kill Chalice/Suppression Field + Thalia

    vs Doomsday: Win the game. Then gain 2 life.

    vs Storm: Kill Wishclaw/LED/Grid/Carpet + Hope/Xantid OR return Wasteland (any of those plays does a lot vs their anti-blue plan)

    vs BG Depths: return Wasteland + Go above 20 life = Time Walk

    in BG Depths: return Depths/Stage/Urborg/Bayou + put opponent below 20 = Time Walk

    Many others I couldn't think of.

    That doesn't mean this card will replace Decay overall, but it has relevant 2-for-1s vs a big chunk of the field now that fair creatures and artifacts are playable again. The rest of the time, being modal should be useful.

  13. #33

    Re: Strixhaven (Back to School[s of Magic] this April)

    W6 has shown us how strong rebuying wasteland is in delver when it is on a flexible card. The chance at a 2 for 1 and flexibility is absolutely worth being a bit worse at killing big creatures. No-one in Grixis plays abrade over kcommand because it only deals 2 damage.

    You know what is really good at stabilizing vs UR? Killing their 4/4 sprite dragon with your delver and lightning helixing their face. If getting bolted to the dome is a problem, than the life drain effect is worth almost a full card by itself.

    Saying the command is unplayable because brutality is bad is like saying ravens crime is bad thus Kcommand is unplayable.

  14. #34
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    Re: Strixhaven (Back to School[s of Magic] this April)

    Quote Originally Posted by Reeplcheep View Post
    W6 has shown us how strong rebuying wasteland is in delver when it is on a flexible card. The chance at a 2 for 1 and flexibility is absolutely worth being a bit worse at killing big creatures. No-one in Grixis plays abrade over kcommand because it only deals 2 damage.
    Yeah, being modal shouldn't be underestimated. How many Legacy decks played Shatter or Searing Spear in the last 10 years? How many played Abrade once it was printed?

  15. #35

    Re: Strixhaven (Back to School[s of Magic] this April)

    Lets see other use cases:

    Vs bant-Icles: kill sylvan, mill their terminus (this may be difficult at sorcery speed)

    Vs burn: kill the 2 cmc sulfuric vortex thing plus gain 2 life.

    Vs loam: kill a bob plus a chalice. Oof this one is good.

    Vs show & tell: drain 2 plus rebuy wasteland & clear a brainstorm, not amazing but better than decay.

    Vs gaak: kill your own delver to clear bridge plus destroy altar.

  16. #36
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    Re: Strixhaven (Back to School[s of Magic] this April)

    Disingenuous arguments and spurious comparisons? Legacy really is back baby!

    I can't wait until the card is out and then when it isn't in 100% of top 8 lists, they can say "I told you it wasn't playable!"
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    Re: Strixhaven (Back to School[s of Magic] this April)

    Quote Originally Posted by H View Post
    Disingenuous arguments and spurious comparisons? Legacy really is back baby!

    I can't wait until the card is out and then when it isn't in 100% of top 8 lists, they can say "I told you it wasn't playable!"
    February's Vintage Challenge had 7 Black Lotus in the top 8, so I will accept my apology in the form of an interpretive dance, thank you very much.
    Quote Originally Posted by GreatWhale View Post
    Gross, other formats. I puked in my mouth a little.

  18. #38
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    Re: Strixhaven (Back to School[s of Magic] this April)

    Quote Originally Posted by PirateKing View Post
    February's Vintage Challenge had 7 Black Lotus in the top 8, so I will accept my apology in the form of an interpretive dance, thank you very much.
    Circa-2010 Workshop decks, is that you?
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  19. #39
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    Re: Strixhaven (Back to School[s of Magic] this April)

    These are scenarios that can happen @Reeplcheep, but Delver doesn't really get the option to ignore its main problems for corner case scenarios. This card has no meaningful text against a flipped UR Delver, and that's what matters.

    @FTW that comparison does not work. Abrade had to be not 1cmc b/c of Chalice. Every other card that did the same thing [Shatter] on that cmc had a backup plan that attacked a more fringe resource than a creature (Smash, Grudge).

    For every scenario you listed, we could make small alterations and see the same stuff written for Collective Brutality. None of this modality matters if the card is failing to address the fundamental deficit. The thing about Abrade is that it played precisely because it addresses a fundamental deficit: artifact removal.

  20. #40
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    Re: Strixhaven (Back to School[s of Magic] this April)

    To be fair, there is a higher deckbuilding cost to Collective Brutality compared to the new golgari charm. One requires BG, the other needs spare cards to pitch to gain the same modality. One is a natural 2-for-1, the other has a real cost to getting more than 1 card. The only deck that I saw profitably using Collective Brutality to it's fullest potential was Br Reanimator in the Deathrite Shaman era. This new card is splashable in any BGx deck without any cost other than needing targets for the modes.
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