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Thread: [Deck] Suicide Black

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    [Deck] Suicide Black

    With some relative success it seems appropriate to begin some discussion on the deck and the archetype. There have been many mono-black aggro threads in recent memory (I just did a search for them), but none actually seemed to go the route of Suicide Black instead opting for more a black weenie strategy or a Confidant based approach ala Deadguy Ale.

    The deck is based around using very powerful creatures to finish off your opponent using disruption as means to that end. The main difference between this deck and the decks that have been discussed in mono-black threads is that the creatures in this deck by and large can end the game all on their own. This deck is tempo-driven by this I mean it wants to play something that will affect the game immediatedly as possible. While draw spells are always important and helpful, this deck cannot spend the precious early turns of a game trying to generate card advantage. It simply doesn't win because it has more cards in hand but rather because its disruption has allowed its creatures to seal the deal.

    I played the following deck to a 9th Place Finish at the most recent StarCity Duel for Duals -

    //Disruption
    3 Pithing Needle
    4 Hymn To Tourach
    4 Sinkhole

    //The Legion of Doom
    4 Wretched Anurid
    4 Nantuko Shade
    4 Hypnotic Specter
    4 Phyrexian Negator

    //Removal
    4 Vendetta
    4 Diabolic Edict

    //Mana
    4 Dark Ritual
    4 Wasteland
    17 Swamps

    Let's go over each section to explain the way the deck works.

    Disruption

    Pithing Needle - I decided to play Pithing Needle over Duress because I wanted to improve my game against Goblins and other aggro decks where Duress is either very poor or just outright dead. At this tournament Pithing Needle ended up being different levels of effectiveness - amazing against aggro but much worse against combo and control. I think this is mostly a metagame call, but currently I'm favoring Duress over this card but boarding Needle can be a very good choice.

    Hymn to Tourach - One of the best ways to disrupt your opponent is to pull two random cards from his hand on turn 2. This card acts like the best Duress (pulling the two most relevant cards) or like a double Sinkhole (pulling two lands) or often just a good mixture. The card is amazing against combo, control, and aggro.

    Sinkhole - There's nothing like robbing tempo from your opponent when on your third turn you untap and play your third land, but your opponent only has 1 in play because you played a turn 2 Sinkhole. Its that window of opportunity that a deck like this lives and thrives off of.

    The Legion of Doom
    Okay I like my creature base in this deck so much that I've gone so far as to give them a name - The Legion of Doom (based on the old cartoon Super Friends). I was also given the suggestion Cowboys From Hell (Pantera album) on Saturday (thanks Asher) which I find pretty cool as well.

    Wretched Anurid - He's a recent addition and substitution for Flesh Reaver. While I love the Reaver's power and speed but against decks playing creatures he just often turns himself off by by losing so much life. Anurid can also cause a great deal of lifeloss (and uncontrollable I might add), but he's much better about being chump blocked. I'm still not certain which one is best in the current metagame, but both are powerful 3/3s and 4/4s for 2 mana.

    Nantuko Shade - While not the best turn 2 play, he's definitely amazing often swing for 5 damage starting on turn 3. He ends the game unblocked within a few turns. He makes all of your post third turn rituals into giant growths. He eats other creatures for a living.

    Hypnotic Specter - You might think he doesn't end the game quickly because he's a 2/2, but in fact he does end the game just as fast as the other creatures, because he makes it so that your opponent has to top-deck the answer since he shrinks your opponent's hand very quickly. He is one of the few ways the deck can actually generate card advantage.

    Phyrexian Negator - Negator in a format with creatures! Must be a mistake! No mistake at all. In fact the mistake is that people think he's terrible in this format because Goblins exists. To be fair I thought he would be terrible against Goblins myself, but I've beaten Goblins with him so many times I know he is good against Goblins. A 5/5 on turn 1 is nuts that's all you need to know. There is no other deck in this format that can boast that. I would never play this deck without Phyrexian Negator.

    Removal
    This is part of the deck that I really had to work on for Legacy. Older Suicide Black decks were often based in non-creature formats (ie Type 1). So I figured I needed to dedicate some of the main deck to removal. This would serve two purposes - Kill my opponents creatures, but more importantly force my creatures through which is what the deck needs to be able to do win games.

    Vendetta - There are many 1cc removal spells, but none are as versatile as Vendetta in this deck. Sure the lifeloss is an issue, but the important thing is that you can play this card on turn 1. Having an answer for Goblin Lackey as well as being able to hit almost any creature (black creatures being the obvious exception).

    Diabolic Edict - As a secondary removal spell it has impressed me time after time. While it seems terrible against aggro decks the main benefit of this card its the least likely to be dead. Suicide Black has no draw as currently constructed so it has to make it least likely for it to draw a dead card. Diabolic Edict is dead so infrequently it makes for a very good card in this deck. Its often even useful against combo decks (Spring Tide, Salvager's Game, Belcher, etc.)

    Mana

    Dark Ritual - This is another reason to play this deck. It allows for you to generate so many busted openings that this card is integral to the deck. People often think that you need this card to win, but that just isn't the case. If constructed correctly Dark Ritual only increases your tempo and doesn't rely on it exclusively.

    Wasteland - Another disruptive element that both generates tempo and disruption all in one card. It complements the Sinkhole strategy very nicely and often allows for generating so much tempo by your opponent missing multiple land drops that you win because of it.

    Swamps - The reason to play 17 is to make sure you hit your second swamp on turn 2. I can't stress this enough. The surest way to lose tempo is to not be able to play your spells on the turns on which they are suppose to be cast. I've tried running 18 but I have not seen no major improvement in hitting the right amount of lands.

    Matchups

    Goblins 40/60 Preboard - When I first put this list together I thought my game against goblins would be terrible. To be fair this was last summer before Goblins really took off, but I was suprised to find that this wasn't the autoloss. Preboard games are difficult, but very winnable. You want at least 1-2 to creatures in your opening hand and hopefully a removal spell as well. If you are running Duress - hope you don't draw it since its the most dead card in the main deck. Post board games get much easier with boarding Infest and Pithing Needle. The reason no Engineered Plagues in the board is that this deck can't reliably find 2 Plagues because it lacks draw. Instead you Infest their team and drop a creature and swing in for the win.

    Threshold (Gro) 50/50 Preboard - The different flavors make a big difference. The black version is most favorable for you because they're removal is often dead. The white version is pretty close, but often they just drop Mystic Enforcer and you lose (unless you have the Edict!). The red version also sounds difficult because bolt on a Negator is a never a good thing, but in actuality you can protect your Negators with Duress, Hymn, and Sinkhole. Going after their manabase can often be a successful strategy. The game usually goes to which player can get his creatures to stick. While Sui's creatures are better in the early game and Threshold's creatures are better in the mid game it becomes quite a battle to see which creatures make it through.

    Solidarity 70/30 Preboard - While this may seem like an auto win it is not. While you are heavily favored you can often lose because they can go off through your 1 or 2 disruption spells. Remand has been a huge help to Solidarity in this matchup. But you usually win because you have disruption plus a fast clock. Your creatures will never look as good as they look in this matchup. Sui still loves to see Mono-blue decks!

    Rifter unsure - I haven't tested enough to really have a sense of how the matchup goes. When I did test against Wombat it was slightly favorable perhaps about 60/40, but Lightning Rift itself can be quite the problem, but again the manabase is more open to disruption. Its hard to say at the time of this writing exactly what that matchup is.
    Last edited by AnwarA101; 04-18-2006 at 01:44 AM.

  2. #2
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    Re: [Deck] Suicide Black

    What sideboard did you run up there, and how did it do against the field?
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    Re: [Deck] Suicide Black

    From the archived section of this board.

    I think most of the discussion there still applies. I just thought I would throw out a link to the last time that suicide was considered decent. There are a lot of outdated concepts, too. Like we thought Chalice of the Void was a good card. Oh, and I ran Graveborn over confidant because confidant wasn't invented yet.

    The match against rifter isn't exactly all that great. I have found that haunting echoes is the card that makes the matchup winnable. Also, you will need Dystopia to kill Humility should it drop.


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    Re: [Deck] Suicide Black

    Quote Originally Posted by FakeSpam
    There are a lot of outdated concepts, too. Like we thought Chalice of the Void was a good card.
    Actually, Chalice is still a decent card for Sui. It can power it out quickly, and it's rock solid against Thresh, Burn, and Storm combo.

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    Re: [Deck] Suicide Black

    Kk. I can understand the burn and high tide matchup. You really need to explain to me it's use in thresh, though.
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    Re: [Deck] Suicide Black

    Quote Originally Posted by FakeSpam
    Kk. I can understand the burn and high tide matchup. You really need to explain to me it's use in thresh, though.
    Nearly half their deck is in the 1cc range. Does it really need further explaining?

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    Re: [Deck] Suicide Black

    Quote Originally Posted by GodzillA
    Actually, Chalice is still a decent card for Sui. It can power it out quickly, and it's rock solid against Thresh, Burn, and Storm combo.
    I agree. I wished I had sided Chalice at Kadilak's Dual Land Draft. It disrupts so many decks, mainly because Legacy seems to have a large focus on cheap threats and early "velocity" (as Flores put it), most of which are 1cc cards.

    Hypothetically speaking, if you played Chalice of the Void in Sui-black (maindeck or board), it would make sense to run Snuff Out instead of Vendetta, since you will almost always want to set the Chalice to one.

    Edit: Ever consider a Tomb of Urami or two as a potential extra finisher? Your Legion of Doom is probably adequate threat, but it's a thought.

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    Re: [Deck] Suicide Black

    I ran Chalice back when I played Sui and loved it. Also, when I saw your list, I think my head exploded because I didn't see Duress.

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    Re: [Deck] Suicide Black

    Honestly, I'm wondering why Dark Confidant isn't in this list. Yes, I know that it was already in a similar list, but 'draw 2 cards a turn' is awfully ridiculous. It doesn't even necessarily mean that you have to give up the current focus of your deck - if you have Bob Maher online, you're just going to draw into more animals to bash them with.

    I'd want to board Perish against Threshold, Haunting Echoes against W/R Control, Engineered Plague against Goblins, and additional hand disruption against High Tide.

    Is there a reason that you're not playing with a full set of Chrome Moxen?

    Have you considered the 8 Zombies from Tempest block? They aren't quite big enough to punch through a Nimble Mongoose, but they certainly can't be killed while trying to block a Goblin Lackey and they're nice things to defend a Phyrexian Negator against a Lightning Bolt with.

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    Re: [Deck] Suicide Black

    Why not Rotting Giant over Anurid?

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    Re: [Deck] Suicide Black

    Rotting is less effective, because of the possibility that you will have to hold back with him. Any time you are holding back with a creature, you are not going to be in a winning position. In addition the life loss of the Anurid is to so much that you cannot manage. After all, the deck is called Suicide Black.

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    Re: [Deck] Suicide Black

    Just to make some promotion and maye inspire you to some ideas here is the article about the "suicide-deck" I am running.It does not play like suicide any more but the game plan is quite similiar.

    Slumpy

    My list is not that dependant on Ritual and I did not like Negator in a meta full of bolt,rifter,FTK,Mogg Fanatic,Gempalm,Grim Lavamancer,Cursed Scroll etc..

    Like Kirdape3 sad Confidant should definatly be in that list.
    Then Vendattas lifeloss might be a bigger issue and you might want to switch to something else(for example I use smother).The 8 one casting cost Zombies are answers to turn 1 Lackey that stay around and they do trade with Piledriver and Chief in the midgame.Also they are win conditions.
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    Re: [Deck] Suicide Black

    I like the idea of Sui black, and the decklist seems ok. Here's what I would (will?) do with my build:

    1) Add Dark Confidant in the Anurid spot. He beats for one less, and won't trade with a 'Goose, but instead of spending life to play other threats, he spends your life to GET other threats. It's a draw engine that doesn't hurt your threat count (in other words, a gift from god). Also, he's a magnet for removal, letting your more powerful beaters live.

    2) Splash a color. I know this deck isn't Pikulas, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't steal his ideas. I don't think it can compete consistintly without a splash. Red seems the obvious choice, but I prefer white. Vindicate (in place of Vendetta or Edict) significantly improves your Threshold, Combo, and Control matchups without really hurting your other matchups. Also, white gives you some SB choices vs. Burn, which is an auto loss otherwise. And it really doesn't kill the mana base. Simply sub 4 Scrubs for Swamps, and 6 fetches for swamps or 3-4 fetches and 2-3 Tainted Field. This also gives you the option to run StP, but I'm not big on it for this deck.

    3) I also agree with the 1 of Tomb of Urami.

    4) Any thought to Hunter Horror? He has savage synergy with Edict (and Vindicate).

    5) I really like Pithing Needle because it can shut down opponents fetches, but I'm not sure it belongs mainboard. I know you made this as a meta choice, but I think threats/removal might have been the better choice. Vindicate shines here because it is all purpose removal that is never dead (unlike Needle) so it allows you to focus the rest of your deck.

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    Re: [Deck] Suicide Black

    Here is a link to my Tournament Report for the Duel for Duals -

    http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showp...2&postcount=28

    Edit: Ever consider a Tomb of Urami or two as a potential extra finisher? Your Legion of Doom is probably adequate threat, but it's a thought.
    Tomb of Urami seems to have bad synergy with both Negator and Shade. No I haven't considered it and I don't think it would work very well.

    Honestly, I'm wondering why Dark Confidant isn't in this list. Yes, I know that it was already in a similar list, but 'draw 2 cards a turn' is awfully ridiculous. It doesn't even necessarily mean that you have to give up the current focus of your deck - if you have Bob Maher online, you're just going to draw into more animals to bash them with.
    The reason is that Dark Confidant isn't a threat. He dies to all removal that is run in this format and he is bad turn 2 drop if you want to win by turn 5 or so. He might draw you into more cards, but those cards won't be in play. You need cards in play to be able to win quickly. This deck won't win by drawing more cards. It just not part of the strategy. This might be suprising, but Dark Confidant doesn't belong in every black deck. This deck is a perfect example of that.

    Is there a reason that you're not playing with a full set of Chrome Moxen?
    I've never tried it but the main problem I see is that eats a business spell and you have no draw to make up for it. Dark Ritual is the best accleration and I'm not sure any other accleration fits in.

    Why not Rotting Giant over Anurid?
    This deck can't reliably put enough cards in its own graveyard to always keep him active especially in the early game.
    Last edited by AnwarA101; 04-18-2006 at 09:21 PM.

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    Re: [Deck] Suicide Black

    Is there a reason to not run a couple of withered wretches maindeck? Possibly for the needles, as this would improve your chances against threshold if it resolves, and makes your threats considerably larger than theres. It also helps against salvagers combo and lftl decks.

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    Re: [Deck] Suicide Black

    Quote Originally Posted by Rambo
    Is there a reason to not run a couple of withered wretches maindeck? Possibly for the needles, as this would improve your chances against threshold if it resolves, and makes your threats considerably larger than theres. It also helps against salvagers combo and lftl decks.
    The main problem I have found with Wretches is that they are not a threat. While I agree that, the needles might not be the best option, wretch is not either. In addition, the wretch's ability is basically useless, becasue there is never a time you want to be removing cards from the graveyard rather then playing threats.

    No, the problem with Sui is not its lack of threats, or its mana base, or anything it runs. What the deck lacks is two things: 1.) Reach, and 2.) A late game plan.

    Once it hits turn 6, and you are not dominating the board, you have Lost. The real problem, is giving up a little bit of consistency, for the reach that the deck needs so desprately. There are cards i.e., moat and Humility that when they come down, Sui Just looses. Suicide needs a way to develop a late game plan, to destroy your opponents.

    Things to look at:

    Tangle Wire: I know this does not solve the late game problem. But it gives soo much tempo, that maybe it is necessary. It basically stunts your opponents while allowing you to keep on swinging.

    Cursed Scroll: Against decks like goblins, getting an active scroll can mean gg. Maybe I am still running in the old Pox mentalty. I think its worth looking at though. Since Sui empties his hand so quickly, it is very effective. Against many control decks it is simply just reoccuring damage.

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    Re: [Deck] Suicide Black

    I don't care about winning turn 5 - I care about winning, period. Dark Confidant, while dying to every removal spell I can think of, will keep you in enough gas if it isn't that you will win the attrition games. I seriously doubt that it's better than Wretched Anurid at actually getting into any sort of creature fight - when they play reinforcements, that guy domes you.

    Also, Chrome Mox allows you to play your 2 drops as effectively one-drops. I wouldn't mind casting Hymn to Tourach on turn 1 on the play.

  18. #18

    Re: [Deck] Suicide Black

    The Problem with confidant, is that he is to weak. We have seen him so many times in Sui. He never takes the offensive, unless your opponent does not have a board. In addition, Confidant lacks the raw power that the other threats have. While he does draw you cards, he is more like a situational draw spell rather then a creature. In my testing, while confidant does help out in some matchups, one cannot justify running him.

    Anurid at least beats in. While he does take life off of you, can fight many creatures and win. Confidant dies to everything. Remember this deck needs to be the most agressive deck in the format. You can't be holding back during the attack step, since many of your creatures are really only good during the early turns.

    Now on the idea of chrome mox in the deck, why would anyone run this when there is dark ritual in the format. Ritual lets you play 3 drops on turn one, and generates such great tempo advantages. While playing a hymn on turn 2 is appealing, it seems like one would rather play ritual hymn. There is nothing wrong with dropping a turn one hymn with a ritual, not to mention the other threats in the deck.

    With chrome mox and ritual in the deck, one will be loosing to many cards, and it seems like that you will have to be getting rid of revelent spells to use the chrome mox.

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    Re: [Deck] Suicide Black

    Quote Originally Posted by kirdape3
    I don't care about winning turn 5 - I care about winning, period. Dark Confidant, while dying to every removal spell I can think of, will keep you in enough gas if it isn't that you will win the attrition games. I seriously doubt that it's better than Wretched Anurid at actually getting into any sort of creature fight - when they play reinforcements, that guy domes you.

    Also, Chrome Mox allows you to play your 2 drops as effectively one-drops. I wouldn't mind casting Hymn to Tourach on turn 1 on the play.
    Winning by turn 5 was just an example of having to win pretty soon. If you care about winning with this deck you need to do it soon. Wretched Anurid doesn't do that much damage to you in the early game your opponent can only drop a creature a turn sometimes two. I'm not discounting Dark Confidant, but I found that against both Goblins and Gro he hardly counts as a threat. He basically can never attack, and if he does survive for several turns then yes I've generated card advantage, but can this deck actually win several turns after a turn 2 confidant. That means a real threat hasn't been played until turn 3 (without Dark Ritual).

    As for Chrome Mox, how would fit it in? What would cut? Lands, seem like a good choice, but that means that often you have to give up a business spell for the acceleration. I'm not sure if that sacrifice is worth it.

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    Re: [Deck] Suicide Black

    I'd absolutely get rid of some lands for a set of Moxen. The ability to jump ahead on the mana curve is a huge one, allowing you to play your expensive spells faster. If you're worried about speed, then the loss of cards is irrelevant and Chrome Mox is a must. If you're worried about card advantage, then you want Dark Confidant even if it never gets to attack.

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