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Thread: [Deck] CounterTop Thopter

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    grahf's Avatar
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    [Deck] CounterTop Thopter

    Pippo84's New and Awesome Thopter Foundry Primer, v1.1:
    edited and maintained by me, Grahf

    This primer will not give you a sample list, or a sideboarding guide. This primer is about how to build the core of a good CounterTop-Thopter list and give you an idea of how the deck works.

    Index
    What is CounterTop Thopter?
    Building CounterTop Thopter
    Card Analysis
    Why should I play this deck?
    Topics to Discuss
    History
    Match-Ups (to come)


    What is CounterTop Thopter?


    CounterTop Thopter is a deck that wants to get to the long game, and win by swarming the opponent with a bunch of 1/1's. The deck uses the well known Counterbalance + Sensei's Divining Top soft lock to gain the control of the match and then uses the Thopter Foundry + Sword of the Meek combo to win. How does it work? When both cards are in play you can pay 1 mana and sacrifice the sword to create a 1/1 artifact creature with flying and gain one life. Since a 1/1 enters the battlefield the sword's ability triggers and the sword comes back to play equipped to the token. You can go on as long as you have enough mana. This deck is also very different from the other CounterTop lists because there are no creatures here, except from the token ones.

    Building CounterTop Thopter

    The core of the deck builds itself. It's commonly agreed that these cards must be played:

    
Artifacts:


    
4 Sensei's Divining Top
    
2 Thopter Foundry



    
1 Sword of the Meek
    1 Engineered Explosives

    Enchantments:
    

4 Counterbalance 

    1 Moat or Humility

    

Instants:
    

4 Brainstorm

    4 Enlightened Tutor
    
4 Force of Will
    4 Swords to Plowshares

    

Planeswalkers:
    

2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

    22 Lands: In addition to the usual fetch/dual suite, this deck can support a high basic land count, and it's recommended to do so. (6-8 Islands and 2 Plains is not uncommon)

    This leaves 7 open slots.


    Core Card Analysis:

    4 Brainstorm: One of the best blue spells in the format, an automatic 4 of.
    4 Force of Will: Probably the best counter ever printed.
    4 Swords to Plowshares: the best removal of the format.
    4 Enlightened Tutor: This 1 mana instant card is what gives the glue to the deck. It can grab most cards in the deck and therefore gives more consistency. You can get the 1 ofs that are played (eg. Moat) or the missing piece of the combo. Enlightened tutor is also very synergistic with Counterbalance because you can tutor the correct casting cost card in response to a spell: a 1 mana hard counter! A few lists have used Intuition instead of E Tutor, making for a deck with a slightly different play style - it's a little slower but doesn't create card disadvantage.

    4 Counterbalance: This creates a soft lock that gives virtual card advantage and helps during the whole game. Nothing more to be said about it, every one knows what it is and how it works.
    4 Sensei's Divining Top: Excellent card to check the top cards for Counterbalance and to acheive card quality during the whole game. It also works well with Thopter Foundry: you can tap the Top to draw a card and sacrifice it to Thopter Foundry (paying 1 mana). This gives you 1 card, 1 life and 1 token, tech!
    1 Moat: Some people prefer Humility in this slot. It is really a meta call, but it's necessary. Moat is better against Tribal decks and Humility is better against decks with Qasali Pridemage or against Reanimator. I actually prefer Moat because if you don't find answers you can die from many 1/1's.
    1 Engineered Explosives: A tutorable removal against most of the things out there. It can easily do a 2 for 1 or a 3 for 1. It's an out against so many cards, very versatile.
    2 Thopter Foundry: The question here could be why just 2? People usually play the 2/1 split or the 3/2 split between Thopter Foundry and Sword of the Meek. You can use the Enlightened Tutors to get the missing piece of the combo and playing a lower number opens some slots for versatility.
    1 Sword of the Meek: The minimum necessary. If it's in the GY you can sacrifice another artifact to Thopter Foundry and make it come back (remember, the ability triggers when a 1/1 enters the battlefield under your control). Multiple Swords in hand aren't nice to have.
    2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor: This planeswalker is just the nuts! It wins the game alone and behind a Moat or with a CB+Top in play he will be likely to stick there and your opponent will stop playing because of the +2 ability. Try him if you're not sure!

    The 22 land configuration usually has enough basic lands to support Back to Basics and also plays:
    1 Academy Ruins: The only land in the deck that produces colorless mana. It's very useful to return your artifacts on top of your library: a countered/answered Thopter Foundry or a EE recursion.
    1 Seat of the Synod: This slot is still not sure, it's a tutorable land if you're screwed (but you should have mulliganed then) and it's useful to sacrifice it to Thopter Foundry. It's a common choice in many successful lists.

    Cards to fill the flex slots:

    Counter magic: Counterspell, Daze, Spell Snare, Spell Pierce, or the new Mental Misstep are all possibilities.

    Counterspell: This is a controversial slot. Some people prefer Daze in it's place. For UU, Counterspell is not the easiest spell to cast, but having a stable manabase helps. The real advantage over Daze is that the opponent cannot play around it (leaving 1 mana open) and can counter everything on the long game (and most games will be long). After saying this the deck is quite mana hungry and you want to reach 4/5 mana asap, so missing a land drop is not so good.

    Daze: Interacting in the early game is good, but slowing our mana development is not so good.

    Mental Misstep: The new kid on the block. Promises to stop Lackies and Vials even better than Daze did, without bouncing an Island. Time and testing will tell what is the correct number to play.

    Board Control:
    Ensnaring Bridge: Since this deck is currently lacking a draw engine (but creates virtual CA through CB) the opponent's creatures aren't likely to attack with ES in play.
    Oblivion Ring: A 3 CC tutorable drop for Counterbalance that's an answer to almost everything.
    Vedalken Shackles: Another 3 CC tutorable spell. It can steal an opponent's creature and this is always very nice. The deck runs plenty of islands to support it. Some players say it's too slow, but it can be gamebreaking.
    Ghostly Prison: Slows down the opponent's creatures. Probably sideboard material.

    More Removals: Having removals is always nice! Path to Exile or Wrath of God would be the obvious choices, or perhaps Firespout if red is splashed. However most lists seem to prefer permanent-based answers.

    Other Tutorable Answers:
    Pithing Needle: A tutorable answer for Wasteland, Vial, Planeswalkers, Qasali, Mishra and so on. There are always plenty of targets to choose.
    Tormod's Crypt/Relic of Progenitus: A tutorable GY hate in maindeck. It can be useful against Reanimator, Dredge, Loam and so on.
    Back to Basics: The deck has a very stable manabase to support it. It can be a good MD call if you expect many non-basic lands. It's a great sideboard card anyways.

    Draw engine?:
    Predict: A suggestion from Hanni. It works well with Brainstorm, Jace 2.0 and Sensei's Divining Top. It allows you to mill a card and draw 2, so you can look at 3 new cards with top the next turn. Good for card advantage and card quality at the same time. The hard part is fitting it in - does it take the place of countermagic, board control, or combo pieces?

    Why should I play this deck?

    This deck is really fun to play and controls the match enough to lock the opponent and win. An advantage is that it has no creatures, so all the opponent's removal are useless. This deck is also strong against aggro because if you have the combo down you have almost infinite chump blockers and gain life in the mean while. A positive point of the deck is that it's so versatile that you can get out of any situation and have many answers to everything.

    Topics to Discuss.

    a) The most important thing to discuss is the color to splash. The MD is almost (if not entirely) UW. What advantages does each other color bring?
    b) Humility or Moat main?
    c) After your testings do you prefer a 3/2 or a 2/1 Thopter Foundry/Sword of the Meek split?
    d) What are the best cards in the open slots and why?
    e) What type of sideboard cards are needed?
    f) What weaknesses does the deck have, and how can they be addressed?

    History.

    This deck was born after the printing of Thopter Foundry (Alara Reborn) and had a huge success in the old Extended Format. Legacy players were more skeptical about it, but it's done quite a few placings in big tournaments. The first big result is probably from Carlos Santiago that was Undefeated Day 1 at GP Madrid. (see below for his list)

    Match Ups.

    To come.

    ------ END PRIMER ------

    Grahf's Original Thopter Foundry Post: (for historical purposes and so the first few posts make sense. The list I brewed up with Standstill and Gifts is crap, don't play it.)

    Hello everyone. This is the first thread I've bothered to make here on The Source. I'd like to talk about the Thopter Foundry / Sword of the Meek combo, in a Countertop Control shell.

    I could have sworn there was a thread dedicated to Thopter Foundry already, but I couldn't find it. There are other decks which use the combo, but look substantially different:

    Punishing Gifts, focusing more on a Gifts toolbox and the Punishing Fire / Grove of the Burnwillows combo.
    Tezzeret Foundry, using heavier mana acceleration to power out Tezz and other artifacts.

    I'm particularly inspired by the following list which went undefeated on Day 1 of GP Madrid (see here):

    2 Academy Ruins
    4 Flooded Strand
    2 Island
    1 Plains
    3 Polluted Delta
    1 Seat of the Synod
    1 Tropical Island
    3 Tundra
    3 Underground Sea

    4 Dark Confidant

    4 Brainstorm
    4 Counterbalance
    3 Daze
    1 Engineered Explosives
    4 Enlightened Tutor
    4 Force of Will
    2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
    4 Sensei's Divining Top
    2 Spell Snare
    1 Sword of the Meek
    4 Swords to Plowshares
    2 Thopter Foundry
    1 Vedalken Shackles

    Sideboard:
    2 Counterspell
    1 Engineered Explosives
    2 Engineered Plague
    1 Ethersworn Canonist
    3 Krosan Grip
    2 Path to Exile
    2 Perish
    1 Planar Void
    1 Tormod's Crypt

    Now that's all very nice, and doing so well in such a big tournament is not an achievement to diminish in any way, but I'm going to transform the list a little to reflect my personal biases and card availability. The cards I'm not convinced about are Dark Confidant, Jace the Mind Sculptor and Vedalken Shackles (I happen to not own any of the three either, how convenient). I can see how Confidant's lifeloss would be offset by the lifegain of Thopter Foundry, but he has the drawback of being a magnet for the opponent's otherwise-blanked spot removal. I'm sure Jace 2.0 can do fun stuff, but I'm just not excited to tap 4 mana at sorcery speed for questionable gain. Nor should we need the pseudo-lifegain of soaking up an attack. (nor pay ~$100 for just two of him, but that's a different problem entirely). And Shackles, a lot of people are saying it's too slow for the current Legacy meta. I've never played with the card so I couldn't say for sure, but the argument seems reasonable. Maybe it's a sideboard card.

    Basically, this deck is Landstill with the Thopter/Sword combo instead of Landstill's traditional bombs:

    // 22 land
    4 Mishra's Factory
    2 Academy Ruins
    4 Flooded Strand
    4 Tundra
    2 splash color blue fetch
    1 splash color blue dual
    2 Island
    1 Snow-Covered Island
    1 Plains
    1 Snow-Covered Plains

    // 13 draw
    4 Brainstorm
    3 Standstill
    4 Sensei's Divining Top
    2 Gifts Ungiven

    // 10 counters
    4 Counterbalance
    4 Force of Will
    2 Spell Snare

    // 10 white cards
    4 Swords to Plowshares
    4 Enlightened Tutor
    1 Argivian Find
    1 Humility

    // 4 artifacts
    2 Thopter Foundry
    1 Sword of the Meek
    1 Engineered Explosives

    1 Open Slot

    // sideboard: I don't know yet, but let's assume it will be fairly similar to the original.

    thoughts on the land:
    I didn't like how the only route to victory in the original list was Thopter/Sword, so I added Mishra's Factories to mitigate that somewhat. Two Academy Ruins seems reasonable in a deck so dependent on artifacts. The basic/snow covered split is for Gifts, so we can get both if need be. I haven't decided about the splash color: keep black like the original list, go for red like my Landstill list, or no splash at all. Originally just 20 lands total, it's now 22; I think the slightly higher count is appropriate in a Landstill-style shell. There are more colorless lands, but the color splashes are smaller, so the manabase should be stronger overall.

    thoughts on the rest:
    Standstill seems like a reasonable substitute for Confidant. We can play Factories and make Thopters under it just fine. Squeezed for space, I went down to three. We can find it with E Tutor if necessary, an option that Confidant does not provide.

    Gifts Ungiven instead of Jace, Mind Sculptor is probably the biggest change. It's like a Fact or Fiction that always finds what you need. The Argivian Find was added to make better Gifts piles: one of Foundry, Sword, Ruins, Find will get the whole combo straightaway.

    Humility should be very strong here. Oh, our thopters lose flying, oh noes. In exchange, a vast number of things that would have scared the thopters, no longer do. Only one is necessary because we can find it with E Tutor when and if needed.

    That open slot could be a lot of things. The 4th Standstill, Path to Exile, Counterspell, Muddle the Mixture (jank?), another Sword or Foundry, or a wedge for fitting Daze back in.

    Things that are lacking:
    The Dazes from the original list didn't survive my translation. Dropping them may not be correct, but I feel that I want to hit 4 mana as soon as possible, to start making lots of thopters and casting Gifts or Humility if necessary. I'm not sure what I'd cut to get them back in, either.

    There is not a single card at the 3 casting cost slot for Counterbalance. This is actually a glaring omission, and on further reflection, is probably the primary reason that Shackles was in there. I'd welcome input on this; is acquiring a Shackles the best option? Any 3cc card I do add ought to be an artifact or enchantment, so that it's fetchable with E Tutor when Cbalance is on the table.

    Lastly, I haven't played this deck against real people yet, but I'm thinking about taking it to a local tournament later this month if it works out well.
    Last edited by grahf; 04-22-2011 at 04:11 PM. Reason: New Primer written by Pippo84, with a bit of editing by me

  2. #2

    Re: CounterTop Thopter

    Two Academy Ruins seems like a bad idea. Just toss in Tolaria West so you can tutor for Ruins or EE when you happen to draw it.

    Gifts Ungiven seems like a really poor card choice when you're already running the full set of Tops and three Standstills. You don't need more draw, and Enlightened Tutor provides tutoring and shuffle effects and the like. It also meas you can cut Argivian Find, which leaves you with four empty slots to stick better things in.

  3. #3
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    Re: CounterTop Thopter

    Quote Originally Posted by grahf View Post
    2 Academy Ruins
    4 Flooded Strand
    2 Island
    1 Plains
    3 Polluted Delta
    1 Seat of the Synod
    1 Tropical Island
    3 Tundra
    3 Underground Sea

    4 Dark Confidant

    4 Brainstorm
    4 Counterbalance
    3 Daze
    1 Engineered Explosives
    4 Enlightened Tutor
    4 Force of Will
    2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
    4 Sensei's Divining Top
    2 Spell Snare
    1 Sword of the Meek
    4 Swords to Plowshares
    2 Thopter Foundry
    1 Vedalken Shackles

    Sideboard:
    2 Counterspell
    1 Engineered Explosives
    2 Engineered Plague
    1 Ethersworn Canonist
    3 Krosan Grip
    2 Path to Exile
    2 Perish
    1 Planar Void
    1 Tormod's Crypt
    I agree with you with Dark Confidant being a bad idea MD. But it could be fine in SB. I would replace it MD with Bitterblossoms. As HPB_Eggo, I think that Tolaria West is better than the second Academy Ruins.
    I don't like Daze in a control deck with no mana denial. According to me it's completely irrelevant in such a deck.
    I also think that Jaces are bad (at least MD). They would be nicely replaced with 1*Humility and 1*Moat. They are gg against a lot of decks MD and even if you don't want them both in play, you can use the combo to lock out the opponent, develop and they outrace him with Thopters. Humility is combo with Plague in SB. And they are both answers to 4CC spells through ET with counterbalance into play. Humility is also a great protection against most MD anti-artifact/enchantment (Qasali and Trygon Predator).
    The SB does not justify a G splash neither.
    Shackles is probably a bad call I agree. It forces the deck to play a lot of dual lands although it could keep a strong mana base. (the colour requirement is not that terrible in first turns, only UU). It has to be replaced with a 3CC artifact/enchantment though. I'd propose Words of Wind which is awesome with top (activate top to draw, pay 1 to replace draw with bounce, bounce top. For 2 you bounce 1 permanent from the opponent. How ever it may be even slower than Shackles. Oblivion Ring is also a good option for the 3CC slot.
    I would play 1 Umezawa's Jitte to equip those thopters and faeries and maybe 1 Sword of Fire and Ice.

    Code:
    Lands: 20
    4 Flooded Strand
    4 Polluted Delta
    1 Academy Ruins
    1 Tolaria West
    3 Island
    2 Plains
    1 Swamp
    1 Seat of the Synod
    1 Tundra
    1 Underground Sea
    1 Scrubland
    
    Tokens: 6
    3 Bitterblossom
    3 Thopter Foundry
    
    Usual Control Package: 24
    4  Brainstorm
    4  Counterbalance
    4  Force of Will
    2  Spell Snare
    2  Spell Pierce
    4  Swords to Plowshares
    4  Sensei's Divining Top
    
    Toolbox:  10
    4 Enlightened Tutor
    1 Engineered Explosives
    1 Humility
    1 Moat
    1 Sword of the Meek
    1 Umezawa'sJitte
    1 3CC artifact/enchantment spell

  4. #4

    Re: CounterTop Thopter

    I also put together this deck, but instead of a Jace (don't have the card) I run Tezzeret. He works pretty good as well. Id run one Tezz even if i had Jaces.
    Needs more goyfs.

  5. #5
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    Re: CounterTop Thopter

    i know there was a thopter combo list that made the top 8 at the indeanapolis 5k

    heres the list

    1 Chalice Of The Void
    3 Chrome Mox
    3 Engineered Explosives
    1 Pithing Needle
    1 Sensei's Divining Top
    2 Sword Of The Meek
    3 Thopter Foundry

    Creatures
    2 Trinket Mage

    Instants
    1 Fact Or Fiction
    4 Force Of Will
    2 Gifts Ungiven
    3 Path To Exile
    3 Spell Snare
    1 Swords To Plowshares
    4 Thirst For Knowledge

    Planeswalkers
    2 Tezzeret The Seeker

    Sorceries
    1 Wrath Of God

    Artifact Lands
    1 Ancient Den
    1 Seat Of The Synod

    Basic Lands
    10 Island
    2 Plains

    Basic Snow Lands
    1 Snow-covered Island

    Lands
    4 Flooded Strand
    1 Tolaria West
    1 Tundra

    Legendary Lands
    2 Academy Ruins

    Sideboard:
    1 Meekstone
    1 Relic Of Progenitus
    1 Tormod's Crypt
    1 Vedalken Shackles
    2 Trinket Mage
    3 Stifle
    2 Oona, Queen Of The Fae
    2 Vendilion Clique
    2 Wrath Of God

  6. #6

    Re: CounterTop Thopter

    The deck did in fact make top 8 I believe. The deck actually made a feature match on Sunday in which it destroyed Saito's Storm list piloted by Jeremy Seroogy. Jeremy thought that deck was prolly the most groundbreaking and perhaps the best deck on the day in terms of raw strength. He said he simply couldn't get a step in edgewise to really compete agaisnt it due to the decks high amount of flexibility and versatility.

  7. #7
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    Re: CounterTop Thopter

    Interesting. Has anyone actually tested this out in their meta or anything? It sounds pretty good, not to mention surprising.

  8. #8

    Re: CounterTop Thopter

    I have not tested out this version of ThopterSword although I have tested it in various others shells including Staxx and Gifts. Both of those shells have illustrated the degenerate power of that combo. I will be getting around to testing this deck (hopefully this week). I will let you know how the testing goes.

  9. #9
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    Re: CounterTop Thopter

    I'll put this together and test it.. I've got a few ideas as well, like Leyline of the Void and Helm of Obedience out of the SB.
    Quote Originally Posted by TheInfamousBearAssassin View Post
    This isn't the game of holding hands and friendship. This is a competitive game, and if we all sit around singing kumbaya and sucking each other's dicks, then a lot of people are going to go to a tournament and lose because their pile of 61 jank isn't the special unique snowflake that everyone on the Source says it was.

  10. #10
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    Re: CounterTop Thopter

    The following list won Italy´s "D-Day" tournament, 178 players were attending.

    List:

    GIANI FRANCESCO

    4 Force of Will
    4 Daze
    4 Brainstorm
    4 Counterbalance
    4 Sensei's Divinig Top
    4 Enlightened Tutor
    4 Swords to Plowshares
    3 Thirst for Knowledge
    3 Thopter Foundry
    2 Sword of the Meek
    1 Engineered Explosives
    1 Catene Vedalken
    3 Chrome Mox
    4x Flooded Strand
    1x Polluted Delta
    2x Mysty Rainforest
    3x Tundra
    2x Tropical Island
    2x Underground Sea
    2x Island
    1x Plain
    1x Sede del Sinodo
    1x Academy Ruins

    SIDE

    2x Path to Exile
    3x Engineered Plague
    1x Harmonic Convergence
    2x Krosan Grip
    1x Engineered Explosives
    2x Tormod's Crypt
    1x Relic of Progenitus
    1x Pithing Needle
    1x Ethersworn Canonist
    1x Humility

    All other T8 lists of the tournament can be found here:

    http://www.tipo1.it/forum/viewtopic.php?t=16217

  11. #11
    Don't ping the hydra
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    Re: CounterTop Thopter

    Quick! Change the deck's name to Counter-thopter before it gets popular!

  12. #12

    Re: CounterTop Thopter

    I played against this on MWS and found it to be pretty strong - wouldn't surprise me if this goes on to big things. Its a shame anyone packing graveyard hate against Reanimator/Dredge can hurt you incidentally (I'm thinking Faerie Macabre & Leyline).
    Playing: Merfolk, Dredge
    Working on: G/W Aggro, MBC
    Learning: Pact SI
    In storage: Enchantress

  13. #13

    Re: CounterTop Thopter

    The worst graveyard hate is, by a long shot, Leyline. It prevents the Sword from ever hitting the graveyard.
    Any other graveyard hate can be somewhat played around, by saccing other artifacts in response, so you can save your sword. Planar Void is almost as bad as Leyline.

  14. #14

    Re: CounterTop Thopter

    Quote Originally Posted by hjalte View Post
    The worst graveyard hate is, by a long shot, Leyline. It prevents the Sword from ever hitting the graveyard.
    Any other graveyard hate can be somewhat played around, by saccing other artifacts in response, so you can save your sword. Planar Void is almost as bad as Leyline.
    Except Extirpate.
    That hurts this deck quite a bit. Your Conterlock has to be set at 1 if your opponent is plaing a deck with black and you suspect it.

  15. #15
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    Re: CounterTop Thopter

    Mini-report! My first ever Legacy tournament too, yay. I think 10 people were in attendance, but it was a pretty mature and varied meta. I saw 2 Merfolk, 2 Zoo, Eva Green, Aggro Loam, Reanimator, Affinity, ANT, and me with the Thopters.

    Round 1: Merfolk

    Game 1: I was doing OK until I walked an StP into Daze, classic noob mistake.
    Game 2: Two wastelands keep me below 4 mana, and by the time I get Elspeth down, islandwalking kills me.

    Round 2: Eva Green

    Game 1: I Oblivion Ring an early Hippie, but he has another. Hymn rips up my hand, but I have Top down. I'm hiding Humility on top of my library, looking for a fourth land, which I eventually find, but I get blown out anyways by Seal of Primordium. He's holding seven cards in hand the whole game, which I was confused about, but later he shows me they were all Snuff Outs and Edicts. Well, at least I scored some virtual card advantage, har-har.

    Game 2: I keep an extremely questionable hand with 2 Factories as my only land, hoping to find more with Top. Of course I never do, as Wasteland eats me alive again. By the time I get a Chrome Mox down and start Plowsharing things, it's too little to late.

    Ugh. In the above two matches, I never had Thopter/Sword going even once, and CounterTop countered maybe one or two cards, which barely mattered. My boarding in both matches was -2 Spell Pierce +2 Path to Exile, and -1 random +Jitte.

    Round 3: A bye? The person I was supposed to play dropped, so I watch Zoo vs. Reanimator. The Reanimator player names green with Iona, promptly gets it Path'ed, but rips Exhume off the top for the win anyways.

    Round 4: Aggro Loam

    Game 1: Finally some close games. These were all long and a bit blurry. Here, I can't stop Seismic Assault or Chalice at one from getting through, which both mess me up considerably. I make a misplay where I forget to put a loyalty counter on Elspeth, and she gets blown up by Assault too quick to do much. I'm able to make a few Thopters, but EE @ 2 eats my Thopter Foundry and Counterbalance. I get Waste-locked, he draws lots of cards, I can't recover.

    Boarding: -1 Elspeth -1 Chrome Mox -1 Thirst -1 Oblivion Ring / +1 Aura of Silence +1 Relic of Progenitus +1 Tormod's Crypt +1 Crucible. It was tough to decide here because I wanted to bring in at least half my board, but couldnt figure out what to take out. Not sure if I made the right choices.

    Game 2: Notably, this is the only game I won all day, and not coincidentally, the only game where I make a large amount of Thopters. Finding and resolving Gifts helped with that. 9 Thopters race a Seismic Assault for the win.

    Game 3: Tough game. I have a Relic turn one, and Top turn 2. I start eating his yard slowly, but he forces me to sac it when he plays EE @ 1. That was a misplay on my part because I had Spell Pierce floating in my top 3. From that point it's downhill - Ruins gets Wasted, Foundry gets Pulsed (I sac it to itself), and my lone token gets Pulsed as well. I frantically search for StP, don't find it in time, and get punched in the face by a 9/9 Countryside Crusher. This guy went on to win the tournament, beating Zoo in the semis and Reanimator in the finals, congrats to him.

    My rather sketchy list:

    4 Tundra
    4 Flooded Strand
    1 Scalding Tarn
    1 Volcanic Island
    1 Seat of the Synod
    1 Ancient Den
    1 Tolaria West
    2 Mishra's Factory
    3 Island
    2 Plains
    1 Chrome Mox

    4 Sensei's Divining Top
    4 Brainstorm
    3 Counterbalance
    4 Force of Will
    2 Spell Pierce
    2 Gifts Ungiven
    2 Thirst for Knowledge
    4 Enlightened Tutor
    4 Swords to Plowshares
    2 Thopter Foundry
    2 Sword of the Meek
    2 Elspeth, Knight Errant
    1 Oblivion Ring
    1 Humility
    1 Engineered Explosives
    1 Argivian Find

    Sideboard:
    2 Path to Exile
    2 Wrath of God
    2 Aura of Silence
    2 Relic of Progenitus
    1 Tormod's Crypt
    1 Jitte
    1 Engineered Explosives
    1 Meekstone
    1 Ethersworn Canonist
    1 Crucible of Worlds
    1 Something else???

    My scrubby results don't do justice to the potential of this archetype.

    Mishra's Factory was a terrible idea, I was constantly wishing they were basic lands or another Academy Ruins. The singular Volcanic was for EE @ 3, though I never cast it at that number. Tolaria West never messed me up, I used it to find EE once. 21 lands +1 Mox did not feel like quite enough, I would add more land or moxen, however I only own one Chrome Mox right now.

    As you can see I played Thirst instead of Standstill which I was exploring previously. It is probably the best choice of draw spell (not being able to cast Standstill in a losing position is a real bummer), but it still felt awkward, because the artifact count didn't seem quite high enough. In Theory, I could pitch extra Tops, or even the Sword of the Meek, but that never happened, and pitching artifact lands is very "meh" especially when I feel land-light in the first place.

    I'm pretty convinced that Gifts Ungiven is the way to go, as far as searching for the Thopter/Sword combo. Enlightened Tutor underperformed all day, I'm sad to say. This may sound obvious, but E Tutor only gets half the combo, whereas Gifts gets the whole thing. This matters when I don't "draw into" the other half. Also, using E Tutor to stack the top of my library for Counterbalance is a pretty conditional play, and my deck didn't even really have the range of casting costs necessary to exploit that.

    The core problem I faced is the deck schizophrenia induced by trying to assemble two separate combos. Removing Countertop would free up a ton of deck space to deal with quick aggro assaults (merfolk and zoo) and the versatility of more search. Gonna get me some Tezzerets and explore that route, I think.

    I keep looking at that SCG Indy list and saying, "wtf!?!" Where's Brainstorm and Humility, why 3/1 Path/Plow split, why only one Wrath maindeck, why Oona in the sideboard? But it's hard to argue with results like that.

    A final note: we now have two threads for the Thopter Combo, this one with CounterTop, and another without: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...Gifts-Thopters If lists with countertop continue to put up results, post them here. The other thread should be for lists without a Counterbalance focus.

  16. #16
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    Re: CounterTop Thopter

    out of curiosity, i keep seing perish in the side board and well i was wondering why the card was threre. i mean i ont really know what id want to board it in aginst

  17. #17
    Meh.
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    Re: CounterTop Thopter

    Natural Order decks, Zoo, Elves, Berserk Stompy, 9 land Stompy, Noble Faerie.dec
    Tusk up.

    Quote Originally Posted by Finn View Post
    Just fucking ban the 600 pound gorilla and be done with it. FFS

  18. #18
    Trample, Haste
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    Re: CounterTop Thopter

    Posted a small tournament report in the "tournament reports" section if someone is interested.
    Team Stimato

    Quote Originally Posted by Julian23 View Post
    He told you a foil from Time Spiral was Summer?
    This man must be a Jedi.

  19. #19
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    Re: CounterTop Thopter

    please critique this list

    1 Polluted Delta
    4 Tundra
    6 Island
    4 Mishra's Factory
    4 Flooded Strand
    2 Plains
    1 Academy Ruins

    // Creatures
    2 Eternal Dragon

    // Spells
    1 Vedalken Shackles
    2 Thopter Foundry
    1 Sword of the Meek
    4 Spell Snare
    4 Brainstorm
    1 Engineered Explosives
    4 Sensei's Divining Top
    3 Counterbalance
    4 Swords to Plowshares
    4 Force of Will
    4 Enlightened Tutor
    4 Spell Pierce

    // Sideboard
    SB: 1 [FD] Engineered Explosives
    SB: 1 [SOK] Pithing Needle
    SB: 1 [SHM] Runed Halo
    SB: 2 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
    SB: 2 [GTW] Path to Exile
    SB: 3 [WL] Aura of Silence
    SB: 2 [US] Back to Basics
    SB: 1 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus

  20. #20
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    Re: CounterTop Thopter

    Quote Originally Posted by obituary 95 View Post
    please critique this list

    1 Polluted Delta
    4 Tundra
    6 Island
    4 Mishra's Factory
    4 Flooded Strand
    2 Plains
    1 Academy Ruins

    // Creatures
    2 Eternal Dragon

    // Spells
    1 Vedalken Shackles
    2 Thopter Foundry
    1 Sword of the Meek
    4 Spell Snare
    4 Brainstorm
    1 Engineered Explosives
    4 Sensei's Divining Top
    3 Counterbalance
    4 Swords to Plowshares
    4 Force of Will
    4 Enlightened Tutor
    4 Spell Pierce

    // Sideboard
    SB: 1 [FD] Engineered Explosives
    SB: 1 [SOK] Pithing Needle
    SB: 1 [SHM] Runed Halo
    SB: 2 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
    SB: 2 [GTW] Path to Exile
    SB: 3 [WL] Aura of Silence
    SB: 2 [US] Back to Basics
    SB: 1 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
    So, first thing you need to add in my opinion is another dual for EE at 3. I would also cut 1 Spell Pierce and 1 Spell Snare for + 1 Sword of Meek and +1 Thopter foundry.
    Why did you add Eternal Dragon? I think I'm missing the point of playing it in this list.
    Btw you really benefit of a 4th Counterbalance if you can add it.
    Another thing to keep in mind when building a deck with counterbalance is to watch the CC curve.
    You currently have 24 drops at 1 and 6 drops at 2. It won't work.Try cutting 1CC spells to add 2CC spells.
    Team Stimato

    Quote Originally Posted by Julian23 View Post
    He told you a foil from Time Spiral was Summer?
    This man must be a Jedi.

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