Page 85 of 105 FirstFirst ... 357581828384858687888995 ... LastLast
Results 1,681 to 1,700 of 2090

Thread: [Deck] Suicide Black

  1. #1681

    Re: [Deck] Suicide Black

    My current deck (which I am thinking of taking to a local tournament coming up soon).

    4-Sarcomancy
    4-Vampire Lacerator
    4-Carnophage
    3-Skittering Skirge
    4-Priest of Gix
    4-Phyrexian Negator

    4-Duress
    2-Unmask

    3-Diabolic Intent

    4-Hatred

    4-Dark Ritual

    4-City of Traitors
    2-Lake of the Dead
    14-Swamp


    A few notes and findings:

    -I tested Culling of the Weak quite a bit, but ended up opting not to run it (and instead running the land based mana accelerants) in order to keep down on the number of creature sacrifice effects required. This allows a somewhat less creature heavy design to be used than otherwise would be necessary, which in turn allows the use of Duress and Unmask in the maindeck. I have found this to be just enough disruption to give you the edge you need in many matchups.

    -Priest of Gix. In my testing so far, this guy is surprisingly powerful. With him plus the full suite of 1cc 2/2 zombies and lacerators, an opening hand with dark ritual in it can be pretty broken. Following up a turn 1 swamp with a turn 2 City of Traitors+Priest of Gix+whatever else you have in hand is not bad either.
    I will be testing him more, but so far he seems to be adding a lot to the deck. In many cases it now seems as fast as (or even faster than) many Zoo decks I have seen lately.
    Another benefit of using Priest of Gix is that it seems to help a bit with the “double black mana/City of Traitors” problem that I mentioned a couple posts back. For this reason Skittering Skirge is tentatively back again in the main deck.

    -Diabolic Intent used almost exclusively to fetch Hatred (and thus win the game in short order). In this role it functions similar to Demonic Consultation in the days of yore (albeit not quite as powerfully). Three seems to be the correct number for this build so far.

  2. #1682

    Re: [Deck] Suicide Black

    Quote Originally Posted by Robert the Bruce View Post
    My current deck (which I am thinking of taking to a local tournament coming up soon).

    4-Sarcomancy
    4-Vampire Lacerator
    4-Carnophage
    3-Skittering Skirge
    4-Priest of Gix
    4-Phyrexian Negator

    4-Duress
    2-Unmask

    3-Diabolic Intent

    4-Hatred

    4-Dark Ritual

    4-City of Traitors
    2-Lake of the Dead
    14-Swamp


    A few notes and findings:

    -I tested Culling of the Weak quite a bit, but ended up opting not to run it (and instead running the land based mana accelerants) in order to keep down on the number of creature sacrifice effects required. This allows a somewhat less creature heavy design to be used than otherwise would be necessary, which in turn allows the use of Duress and Unmask in the maindeck. I have found this to be just enough disruption to give you the edge you need in many matchups.

    -Priest of Gix. In my testing so far, this guy is surprisingly powerful. With him plus the full suite of 1cc 2/2 zombies and lacerators, an opening hand with dark ritual in it can be pretty broken. Following up a turn 1 swamp with a turn 2 City of Traitors+Priest of Gix+whatever else you have in hand is not bad either.
    I will be testing him more, but so far he seems to be adding a lot to the deck. In many cases it now seems as fast as (or even faster than) many Zoo decks I have seen lately.
    Another benefit of using Priest of Gix is that it seems to help a bit with the “double black mana/City of Traitors” problem that I mentioned a couple posts back. For this reason Skittering Skirge is tentatively back again in the main deck.

    -Diabolic Intent used almost exclusively to fetch Hatred (and thus win the game in short order). In this role it functions similar to Demonic Consultation in the days of yore (albeit not quite as powerfully). Three seems to be the correct number for this build so far.
    ok to date, we have not a sideboard from you. its important because, its how the deck wins and loses. more games are played with the sideboard then without so, here is my version at the moment

    hatred

    land
    18 swamp
    2 lake of the dead

    spells
    4 dark ritual
    4 duress
    4 hatred
    3 unmask
    2 diabolic intent
    1 culling the weak
    1 spinning darkness
    1 kaervek's spite

    creatures
    4 sarcomancy
    4 vampire lacerator
    4 dauthi slayer
    4 phyrexian negator
    4 skittering skirge

    sideboard
    4 gatekeeper of malakir
    4 extirpate
    3 umezawa's jitte
    2 cursed scroll
    2 perish

    i have to say again extirpate is my favorite graveyard destruction card. not only is it an instant at split second speed i can cast at the end of my opponents turn, it lets me see if they have anything to stop me casting hatred or kaervek's spite. and btw, playing one kaervek's spite allows me to tutor for it with diabolic intent and finish my opponent off.

    while priest of gix can be explosive, it is still a 2/1 for 3. he is not a true fix to your mana issues. add a swamp. you will be surprised at the difference between 14 and 15. i guarantee you won't miss one city of traitors if you cut one. also, lake has to hurt in your deck when you play it at times. you sacrifice a swamp and if city of traitors on the board, you sacrifice that was well all for a temporary advantage. this is the 1st time i have seen them in the same deck.

    keep in mind diabolic intent is a tutor so you can play 1 of's in the deck like tutoring for kaervek's spite to kill your opponent. demonic consultation could not do that as you needed multiple copies. also, if i'm playing lakes, i want a lot of swamp if i'm going to start sending them to the graveyard 1 and 2 at a time.

    also if you are running priest of gix you should consider culling the weak again. you can get up to 6 mana on turn 2 with city of traitors and priest of gix.

  3. #1683

    Re: [Deck] Suicide Black

    My sideboard is currently:

    4-Perish (Comes in against Zoo, Elves, etc. Either Phyrexian Negator or Diabolic Intent are usually sided out for them.)
    4-Gatekeeper of Malakair (Comes in versus non-green aggro, and anything that plays a few large threats (such as Aggro-Loam). Usually some combination of Skittering Skirge, Phyrexian Negator, and/or discard spells is sided out for them).
    3-Extirpate (Trying this out. Comes in versus graveyard dependent strategies such as Loam. Usually replaces discard spells)
    3-Umezawa’s Jitte (Comes in versus decks like Goblins and Merfolk. Hatred, Diabolic Intent, and/or discard spells are generally sided out for them).
    1-Unmask (Comes in versus control or combo).
    I tried Tombstalker in the sideboard for a while too, in place of the Jittes. Sometimes he is great, but other times you simply do not fill your graveyard quickly enough for him.


    I have cut Lake of the Dead from the deck for the time being. The reason is that I have found that your chances of beating a modern aggro deck (particularly Zoo) hinge on getting as many guys into play as you can on turns 1 and 2. The mana acceleration from Lake of the Dead will not kick in until turn 3 at the earliest, which is sometimes a bit too late. Against other, less aggro-oriented decks it can still be quite good, but this is sometimes offset by it’s being a huge wasteland target.
    My manabase is currently:
    3-City of Traitors
    17-Swamp

    The single copy of Kaervek’s Spite in the main deck looks interesting. May try that out too.

  4. #1684

    hatred

    hey guys,

    well i finally think i decided on a build i'm happy with now. seems to do quite well against the field now too. basically what happened was i decided to test out cabal therapy which i like may more then duress. then i started to run extirpate main deck which seemed silly. both are strong sideboard cards. i dropped duress and unmask as i was kind of unhappy with them. therapy and extirpate are different and more effective in some ways and less in others. basically i wanted 8 spells like that. i finally decided to main deck a lot my sideboard cards i bring vs aggro. the result is something like 5 color black. don't know if you remember that deck but it has a lot of creatures with come into play effects. the result does very good against aggressive decks. very, very good i might add. for control i just side in the therapy and extirpate and call it day. that seems to work pretty well too. the only card i was not sure about and am still not sure about is the 15th sideboard card.

    i also reluctantly added wastelands as certain lands in the game were giving the deck a hard time. also i know the deck is vs control combo game 1. the sideboard is strong against control/combo.

    hatred

    sideboard
    4 cabal therapy
    4 extirpate
    3 umezawa's jitte
    3 perish
    1 nevinraal's disk/diabolic intent/spinning darkness/kaervek's spite

    main
    16 swamps
    4 wasteland
    2 lake of the dead
    4 dark ritual
    4 hatred
    2 diabolic intent
    4 sarcomancy
    4 vampire lacerator
    4 dauthi slayer
    4 gatekeeper of malakir
    4 phyrexian negator
    4 shriekmaw
    4 skittering skirge

    so anyway, that's it really. i was surprised i actually like diabolic intent. aggainst aggro you should be in pretty good shape. against control game 1, just go for hatred. i'll post some tournament reports.

  5. #1685

    Re: [Deck] Suicide Black

    I'd run smother over edicts to help your game over zoo and the like.

  6. #1686

    Hatred

    yeah i think we tested both edict and smother and decided its not worth it in hatred

    i think you are referring to diabolic intent

    Diabolic Intent

    Sorcery, 1B (2)
    As an additional cost to cast Diabolic Intent, sacrifice a creature.

    Search your library for a card and put that card into your hand. Then shuffle your library.


    we are using 2 or 3 of these to search for hatred.

  7. #1687

    Soul Spike

    only change i made was to the main deck and added 1 Soul Spike to replace Kaervek's Spite.

    Card type: Instant

    Casting cost: 5BB

    Card text: You may remove two black cards in your hand from the game rather than pay Soul Spike’s mana cost.

    Soul Spike deals 4 damage to target creature or player and you gain 4 life.

    the main difference is that Kaervek's costs BBB which is harder to cast and Soul Spike costs only 2 black cards

    where this makes a difference is combo decks like Ad Nauseum Tendrils. typically they will combo down to 5 or less life with Ad Nauseum. against us they have nothing to worry about right? wrong. this card is black direct damage as an instant. it's also good for finishing an opponent off without counters off.

    but the real advantage is it makes Hatred no longer a dead card. say you're opponent's health is higher then yours so you can't cast Hatred and you have multiples. throw them to Soul Spike.

    lastly, Soul Spike works well with Diabolic Intent. after you have swung with all your guys and your opponent has 4 life or less, just Diabolic Intent for the 1 Soul Spike in your deck and kill them. game.

    I would actually like to add another to the deck but i don't think there is room.

    i'm using 1 spinning darkness in the board instead.

    oh and lastly my favorite thing that soul spike does is kill Planeswalker cards quickly before the become a problem.

    this is like a slightly more expensive black fireblast. more expensive in that you are sacrificing black cards instead of land. but i think 1 is definitely worth it, 2 probably as well, maybe 3, and 4 probably not.
    Last edited by necrowil; 01-13-2010 at 12:35 AM.

  8. #1688

    City of Traitors

    i have no love for this card in this deck. turn 3 is good enough to kill on. first, if you kill on turn 3 with lake of the dead, you can actually have 6 mana allowing you to leave an extra mana for daze or actually duress your opponent before you cast hatred.

    personally, i don't think with negator in the deck you can really afford to lose permanents with only 20 real land in the deck. also, with Diabolic Intent you can't kill them before turn 3 anyway.

    Turn 1: You dark ritual out two creatures
    Turn 2: You attack and then sacrifice one creature to Diabolic Intent to get your missing combo piece for Hatred
    Turn 3: You cast Hatred with Lake and/or Dark Ritual.

    If you have a City as your 2nd land drop and you need to drop another to Duress them then, you have to cast Hatred in your main phase which may not be optimum either.

  9. #1689

    Re: City of Traitors

    Quote Originally Posted by necrowil View Post
    personally, i don't think with negator in the deck you can really afford to lose permanents with only 20 real land in the deck. also, with Diabolic Intent you can't kill them before turn 3 anyway.
    Uhm... if you can't lose permanents because of Negator isn't City of Traiters better than Lake of the Dead??? Lake of the Dead is a non-basic lands wich costs you at least 1 swamp and a second to use it.
    City of Traitors only cost you one land at max. I like Traitors to because it allows a second turn Phyrexian Negator. Lake of the Dead doesn't come online until turn 3.

    - Benie

  10. #1690

    City of Traitors

    i'll try them out in my current build and see what happens

  11. #1691

    Tournament Report vs Belcher

    i didn't really expect to see this deck in a tournament as it can easily be stopped by force of will can't it? i guess the board in therapy or something. this was on magic-league.com

    game 1: i play some creatures and have him down to 5 or so before he can go off and play belcher and kill me. of note is the tinder wall did slow down my zombies a bit which bought him enough time to find his combo.

    0-1

    board in
    +4 cabal therapy
    +4 extirpate
    -4 gatekeeper of malakir
    -4 shriekmaw

    game 2: swinging most of the game with vampire, skirge and sarcomancy. 1st turn with dark ritual i take goblin charbelcher and lions eye diamond with cabal therapy sacrificing a skirge. he draws cave in to clear my side of the board and gets belcher out, but i am able to finish him with hatred after dropping a sarcomancy.

    1-1

    game 3. again i take charbelcher early on and zombie and skirge. he is able to find another though and uses lions eye diamond to go off.

    1-2

    only thing i can think of differently is to mulligan until i see a piece of my combo as he was doing. live and learn

  12. #1692
    Bear Cub > Tarmogoyf

    Join Date

    Jul 2007
    Posts

    775

    Re: Tournament Report vs Belcher

    Quote Originally Posted by necrowil View Post
    i didn't really expect to see this deck in a tournament as it can easily be stopped by force of will can't it?
    Not only that but Spell Pierce and Daze. Three Swamps and Dark Rit is Dazeable. Two Swamp and Lake is Pierceable.

    Smaller Hatreds combined with lifelinkers is pretty neat, but Path/Swords/Bolt in response to Hatred sucks as it's always sucked, and the critters are small enough to fold to pretty much any removal.

    Hatred in this deck is like Berserk in Stompy: the big, highly disruptable play that wins out of nowhere. I wonder if analyzing that deck could help us gain some insights and/or make a hybrid out of the two.
    Most people blindly suggest new cards for decks. True contributors also suggest what to remove. It's not about what's good, but rather what's better than the current selections.

  13. #1693

    City of Traitors/Soul Spike/Faerie Macabre

    guys,

    well you guys are right of course about city of traitors. Entomb is now the defining card in the format. I can’t believe they unbanned that card. First turn iona is basically scoop for us. Fortunately there is a sideboard answer. We have one thing in our favor. Black has always been a strong color or play when the format is broken in terms of discard like unmask and graveyard destruction, black is the best.

    sideboard

    4 faerie macabre
    3 umezawa’s jitte
    3 perish
    2 reckless spite
    2 soul spike
    1 spinning darkness

    Faerie macabre is pretty much the only and fastest way to stop 1st turn graveyard abuse. You play it for free in response to reanimate or dread return or whatever. Extirpate was fine, but now even 1 black may be not fast enough, after all, we are tapping out for creatures. I was going to test withered wretch but its probably too slow.

    Soul spike is an unusual but great utility card. I continue to find new uses for it. Like today I learned, its good vs dredge when they cast Dread return to kill your own guy and remove their bridges from the game.

    Also, soul spike is one of the few ways to kill annoying planeswalkers.

    Main deck

    12 swamp
    4 city of traitors
    4 wasteland
    4 dark ritual
    4 duress
    4 sinkhole
    4 hatred
    2 diabolic intent
    2 soul spike
    4 sarcomancy
    4 vampire lacerator
    4 dauthi slayer
    4 phyrexian negator
    4 skittering skirge

    I would like to add one more swamp to the main deck. One of my issues with city of traitors was the deck needs wastelands. You have to have an answer to deep depths, maze of ith, volrath’s stronghold, mishra’s factory. Because you are no longer running lake of the dead, you don’t need as many swamps. So 13-14 land is fine. 12 is pushing it. but since people use path to exile another spinning darkness would be nice for red decks.

    Reckless spite is actually really good in this deck with all the life gain here. It’s also a reason I want one more spinning darkness in the deck.

    As far as sinkhole, well I began to notice how much time I gained by using wasteland on my opponents 1st few lands especially if they went to fetch them. Sinkhole basically buys you a turn to set up. If you draw them late you can save them for soul spike.

    The deck plays like a land destruction deck with hatred in it at times. The extra turns help a lot with the deck.

  14. #1694

    Re: [Deck] Suicide Black

    12 Swamps with Sinkhole, Slayer and Skirge isn't good enough. You won't find Dark Ritual every game... My Most colourless manabase was 15 Swamp, 4 Wasteland, 3 City of traitors. With that I barely managed the double black( and I played only Slayer and Hatred with double black.)

    - Benie

    EDIT: PS. why are we discussing the Hatred build? Isn't it just worse than the normal build, which isn't tier 1/2 either?

  15. #1695

    Suicide Black

    Quote Originally Posted by Benie Bederios View Post
    12 Swamps with Sinkhole, Slayer and Skirge isn't good enough. You won't find Dark Ritual every game... My Most colourless manabase was 15 Swamp, 4 Wasteland, 3 City of traitors. With that I barely managed the double black( and I played only Slayer and Hatred with double black.)

    - Benie

    EDIT: PS. why are we discussing the Hatred build? Isn't it just worse than the normal build, which isn't tier 1/2 either?
    yes. i agree about the swamps of course. that's why i stated it above.

    hatred has proven to be good in the past when the field is mostly control/combo oriented. it can kill on turn 2 and 3 which alone imo makes it worth considering.

    whatever you mean by the normal build i would say no its not worse if you have the right build.

    and tier 1/2 is subject to debate. unless there is a site somewhere i don't know about. you could look at top 8 lists sure. but that is how hatred became a top deck. people came playing others and the few who were playing hatred won a lot of matches.

    my play experience is any deck in the hands of an experienced or good player can do well. i have found its more about the player then the deck. lot's of players copy the top decks and play them to dismal finishes. it depends on playstyle as well. regardless of the field, you usually found dave price playing an extremely aggressive deck.

    just look at b/w pikula as well. no one at the time would have said that was tier 1/2 deck before the tournament he won with it. but the fact is he has played since the 90s on pro tour circuit. maybe i'm biased because hatred got me into nationals. but isn't that what discussion is for. to find the right build if one exists.

    if not, play something else

  16. #1696

    Re: [Deck] Suicide Black

    I have to disagree with Necrowil on most points.

    I've tested near every build of suicide black, and I do believe the hatred builds to be worse. They're damn fun to play, because Hatred is an exciting card. But they're worse, even against control and combo builds.

    While there is no strict definition of what tier 1 and tier 2 is, several sites including this one, attempt to help the community define this using various standards. The decks which are included in the DTB forum have all met an objective standard more concrete than the elusive terms of tier 1/tier 2. Suicide black doesn't meet The Source's objective standard, much less any other standard I've seen for Legacy's top tier's of decks. Even if I look at all reported Top 8 deck lists on deckcheck.net for Legacy under Suicide or MBA, it's near impossible to find a deck that runs Hatred. I think it's fairly safe to state that Suicide, and particularly so, Hatred builds of Suicide are not tier 1/tier 2 decks.

    If a "right" build of Hatred exists which is at the same or at a better competitive level of the more modern builds, than it certainly hasn't shown itself. I'm not trying to spur innovation here, but let's not make Hatred builds into something they're not, at least until they actually prove to be good. In the mean time modern builds of Suicide do put up numbers, even if they are few.

    And while forums are generally meant to discuss improvements to a deck, technically the Established Deck forum is for discussing an "established" deck list. The Hatred build varies considerably from a standard list, but I also have no cause to complain about discussion of this list because the vast majority of the Suicide Black thread already contradicts this principle. It's become the forum just to discuss any general mono-black aggro list, not a single established list. I'm certain I've posted lists that vary so much from the norm that posting them should rightfully go in the New and Development forum.

    Back to Hatred...

    The problems with Hatred are:

    1) You need to have a higher life total than your opponent to use it effectively. Which constrains the deck to an aggressive, low cc creature base for a superior early board position - these creatures are largely considered sub-optimal.

    2) The 5cc cost of Hatred forces the deck to run additional mana-acceleration, which isn't used for anything else, further constraining the deck design with cards that are exceptionally conditional.

    3) There is no guarantee that once you've paid the cost of Hatred, you'll see the effect. Which means Hatred decks are forced to run discard elements with the intended purpose of ensuring that Hatred goes off without hitch.
    The effect of Hatred is awesome, but too conditional, very risky, and it forces bad deck design by opting for creatures, mana-acceleration, and discard effects that are generally considered sub-optimal for supporting a single card that we don't have a good search mechanism to ensure that it's available when needed.

    Furthermore I disagree with the direction the Hatred lists that have been posted are progressing. Old Hatred decks used to run both Duress and Unmask to protect the combo. And back then it had a decent game against control and combo decks largely in part because of this. The latest lists posted have only 4x Duress, which will be rarely enough to disrupt modern combo decks, which are not only faster than combo of old, but also better protected (via orim's chant, force of will, etc.)

    Modern builds of Suicide black which run 8-12 discard effects are, without doubt, far better suited against combo decks. I'd speculate the same holds true for the control matches. In addition Hatred decks were always weakest against aggro decks. In this modern meta, where Zoo and the like are rampant, Hatred builds can't expect to muster early control of the board.

    I've been hoping that Lifelink, which bypasses the issue of having the life advantage, would help improve the aggro match up. But from what I've tested, even if I include Child of Night and Vampire Nighthawk, you still have to actually damage your opponent instead of watching your critters burned to a crisp or blocked. No success.

    I don't see a positive difference any any match-up by adding Hatred and hurting other elements of deck design. At least, not at this point. I'm hoping some more bad-ass life link vamps come out in Worldwake. 'Cause Hatred is still a riot to play. I like risking it all. It just doesn't pay-off enough.

  17. #1697

    Re: [Deck] Suicide Black

    *SPOILER*:

    Is it just me, or does this guy look like he'd be the stone-cold shit alongside Cabal Therapy and a couple additional sac outlets? (Works with Gatekeeper...)

    Abyssal Persecutor

    Creature - Demon
    Flying, trample
    You can't win the game and your opponents can't lose the game.
    6/6
    (http://mtgsalvation.com/worldwake-spoiler.html)

    Me likey...
    Last edited by DukeDemonKn1ght; 01-22-2010 at 05:33 PM.
    Bless your heart, we must consider Blue/White Tempo's strategy and win percentages in an entirely different deck thread. -4eak

  18. #1698

    Hatred :)

    Quote Originally Posted by Galroth View Post
    I've tested near every build of suicide black, and I do believe the hatred builds to be worse. They're damn fun to play, because Hatred is an exciting card. But they're worse, even against control and combo builds.
    Testing is fine, but its different when you commit to a deck and win tournaments with it. I test on MWS and magic-league.com all the time. I say this because I would have no idea how to play or build or what should be included in a control deck or pure combo deck or how to play it, while it is a fairly simple mechanic to execute, designing a deck is something that comes from playing it for hours to top 8s and finals. Knowing the deck and how to play and what to avoid is essential usually to winning.

    Quote Originally Posted by Galroth View Post
    And while forums are generally meant to discuss improvements to a deck, technically the Established Deck forum is for discussing an "established" deck list. The Hatred build varies considerably from a standard list, but I also have no cause to complain about discussion of this list because the vast majority of the Suicide Black thread already contradicts this principle. It's become the forum just to discuss any general mono-black aggro list, not a single established list. I'm certain I've posted lists that vary so much from the norm that posting them should rightfully go in the New and Development forum.
    If you look at deckcheck.net there is a wide variety in Suicide decklists which make Top 8. Suicide has varied over the years and there have always been one goal. Beating the opponent down as quickly as possible usually uses disruptive elements. I would say Hatred falls within that goal. If there is an “established” or “standard” list for suicide black, I have not seen it. If there was one, I would still say its open to change.

    Quote Originally Posted by Galroth View Post
    Back to Hatred...

    The problems with Hatred are:

    1) You need to have a higher life total than your opponent to use it effectively. Which constrains the deck to an aggressive, low cc creature base for a superior early board position - these creatures are largely considered sub-optimal.
    So don’t play with suboptimal creatures. Hatred is not the only way to win in this deck. Many decks still die to ritual negator and disruption. Building a deck that only has hatred as a win condition is just bad deck design. Where possible you should include multiple ways to win in a good deck.

    Quote Originally Posted by Galroth View Post
    2) The 5cc cost of Hatred forces the deck to run additional mana-acceleration, which isn't used for anything else, further constraining the deck design with cards that are exceptionally conditional.
    No one is twisting your arm and saying you must play City of Traitors, Crystal Vein, Lake of the Dead or Culling the Weak. In fact, the two decks with Hatred on deckcheck.net ran none of those. Hatred does not constrain deck design. Whether you play 1 hatred or 4 with 3 tutors, you still don’t have to play those cards.

    Quote Originally Posted by Galroth View Post
    3) There is no guarantee that once you've paid the cost of Hatred, you'll see the effect. Which means Hatred decks are forced to run discard elements with the intended purpose of ensuring that Hatred goes off without hitch.
    Also, the decks that ran hatred did not run Unmask, just Duress and Hymn. I don’t think either design relies on hatred going off. Seeing your opponent’s hand is nice, but not essential in this deck. If they counter it, you should be able to win another way. Hymn on the other hand is card advantage.

    Quote Originally Posted by Galroth View Post
    The effect of Hatred is awesome, but too conditional, very risky, and it forces bad deck design by opting for creatures, mana-acceleration, and discard effects that are generally considered sub-optimal for supporting a single card that we don't have a good search mechanism to ensure that it's available when needed.

    Furthermore I disagree with the direction the Hatred lists that have been posted are progressing. Old Hatred decks used to run both Duress and Unmask to protect the combo. And back then it had a decent game against control and combo decks largely in part because of this. The latest lists posted have only 4x Duress, which will be rarely enough to disrupt modern combo decks, which are not only faster than combo of old, but also better protected (via orim's chant, force of will, etc.)

    Modern builds of Suicide black which run 8-12 discard effects are, without doubt, far better suited against combo decks. I'd speculate the same holds true for the control matches. In addition Hatred decks were always weakest against aggro decks. In this modern meta, where Zoo and the like are rampant, Hatred builds can't expect to muster early control of the board.

    I've been hoping that Lifelink, which bypasses the issue of having the life advantage, would help improve the aggro match up. But from what I've tested, even if I include Child of Night and Vampire Nighthawk, you still have to actually damage your opponent instead of watching your critters burned to a crisp or blocked. No success.

    I don't see a positive difference any any match-up by adding Hatred and hurting other elements of deck design. At least, not at this point. I'm hoping some more bad-ass life link vamps come out in Worldwake. 'Cause Hatred is still a riot to play. I like risking it all. It just doesn't pay-off enough.
    Very dismissive. I understand the card is not for you. Interesting idea about life gain, but I can’t recall a time when Hatred was ever concerned about it. Child of Night is obviously terrible and doesn’t belong in even vampire suicide black. Vampire Nighthawk is too slow so on to something else. So I only ask for possiblesolutions. Let’s find what works. Hatred is one card. When you know your opponent is about to go off and win next turn and you need to kill him, and you have the mana, you don’t really want to see any other card.

    Here is one top 8 and one another trial tournament I did well in recently. So I would say that has to mean something. I’m under “greendragon”.
    http://www.magic-league.com/tourname...541&view=decks
    http://www.magic-league.com/tourname...524&view=decks

    Obviously, the mana acceleration and the suboptimal creatures have been cut in favor of ones that have obviously proven themselves in monoblack. Hatred is almost not needed at all in this deck. When you do have to cast it, well if they have not answered your specter or your negator, chances are they don’t have an answer to hatred. While you can’t stop combo control always (the belcher deck that I lost to went off on turn 1), I would say trying to plan and build vs a deck that can beat a deck that can go off turn 1 might be a frivolous pursuit.

    So no mana acceleration ok, 12 disruptive elements you mentioned really 16 if you include wasteland, and obviously higher quality of creatures which like hypnotic specter. Most of the time I cast Hatred was on Hypnotic Specter. If the specter is hitting them, then guess what, they probably can’t stop hatred so I would say specter goes into any build of hatred in the current field. The main deck works really well and every time I have altered it, like add unmask or some other element, I have changed it back. I cut Sarcomancy, but I find it important to be able to play “creatures” with Skirge out and its drawback is nearly negligible with negator. I even tried one more swamp, but even that feels like too much mana. The main issue now is the sideboard which I keep going back and forth with. Now its:

    Sideboard
    4 extirpate
    2 gatekeeper of malakir
    2 withering wisps (for goblins, fish and countersliver)
    2 sickening dreams (for goblins, fish and countersliver)
    2 umezawa’s jitte
    2 perish
    1 spinning darkness

    Wisps is just a very good way to control the board and to finish them off if necessary. Also you can wisps in response to them attempting to bolt kill your negator. It also is nice when they play Moat or something obnoxious like that. However, it may not be fast enough even at 3 mana. I may add more. Engineered Plague doesn’t do enough. Dreams is faster and effective but a lot of card disadvantage. I like it that it damages my opponent as well though. And I’d like to take Jitte out of this deck, but that can leave you in a bad position with no answer.

    So even though I think the advice needed to be more solution oriented, it was very helpful as it got me reexamine the creature base and find the one I am happy with now and include hymn and actually start wining a few.

  19. #1699

    Re: [Deck] Suicide Black

    Quote Originally Posted by DukeDemonKn1ght View Post
    *SPOILER*:

    Is it just me, or does this guy look like he'd be the stone-cold shit alongside Cabal Therapy and a couple additional sac outlets? (Works with Gatekeeper...)

    Abyssal Persecutor

    Creature - Demon
    Flying, trample
    You can't win the game and your opponents can't lose the game.
    6/6
    (http://mtgsalvation.com/worldwake-spoiler.html)

    Me likey...
    The two most obvious ways this card can be utilized is

    Phyrexian Tower

    and

    Fling

    Fling is probably the best for a total beating.

  20. #1700
    Member
    Savo's Avatar
    Join Date

    Sep 2009
    Location

    Rimini, Italy
    Posts

    27

    Re: [Deck] Suicide Black

    Let's take this deck to the next level!

    4x lurking evil
    and
    4x death's shadow, the new 13/13 from worldwake

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)