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Thread: [Deck] Suicide Black

  1. #1801

    Re: [Deck] Suicide Black

    Can't believe no one mentioned this yet. Have you guys seen the new creature in New Phyrexia?

    Phyrexian Canceller
    BBBB
    Mythic
    Creature - Horror
    Trample
    Whenever a source deals damage to Phyrexian Canceller, that source's controller sacrifices that many permanents
    5/5

    Insane for mono black. It's a reverse Negator. Granted, it still dies to swords, but I'm super stoked about it.

  2. #1802

    Re: [Deck] Suicide Black

    I'm pretty stoked about the Canceller as well!
    His mana cost is pretty stiff at "BBBB", but aside from that he seems like hands down the most aggressive black creature ever printed for 4 CMC or less.
    I do have my concerns about him messing with the curve of the deck (almost all previous non-Hatred builds have curved out at 3 CMC) and not being castable without a turn 2 or 3 Dark Ritual though. Most Sui-Black builds run anywhere from 12 to 17 Swamps so the odds of assembling BBBB mana in a quick time frame during any given game are pretty slim without a Dark Ritual. Don't get me wrong though, I'm not saying that it's not do-able, but if we were to run the new Canceller I'm thinking a set of Chrome Mox might be in order to give us the consistent ability to power out something that costs 4 CMC of all black mana during the first couple turns.

    The dude is one serious house though, and I have a feeling that dropping him early is going to be GG against most any deck that isn't packing white. If they don't have Swords there's just not many ways to deal with him that don't end up sweeping their own board in the process. I too am greatly looking forward to testing this new beast in my Suicide build! =D
    Sligh : Winning with bad cards since 1996
    Pox : Enjoy the crisp refreshing taste of your opponent's suffering

  3. #1803

    Re: [Deck] Suicide Black

    for suicide, and i would say Jin15's deck list is a classic solid suicide build, the question becomes what would you cut in your deck to fit in Phyrexian Canceller? your list is pretty tight main deck. maybe play it in the sideboard as additional creatures on top of the ones you aready have. but honestly i think it belongs in a mono black control build which runs arena and the like. i don't think its beatdown. someone wrote for a creature to be even considered beat down its power has to be equal to or greater then its casting costs. its a good card, but i don't think its a suicide card imho

  4. #1804

    Re: [Deck] Suicide Black

    Quote Originally Posted by necrowil View Post
    someone wrote for a creature to be even considered beat down its power has to be equal to or greater then its casting costs.
    It is. With trample and another obviously sickening ability.

  5. #1805

    Re: [Deck] Suicide Black

    guess we will have to see about canceller. but right now vial affinity is the fastest deck in the format as far as aggressive builds and i can't see waiting for BBBB to play canceller. by turn 3 or 5 usually you are dead or close to it. which is leading me to my current hatred build which is testing very smoothly now. i think the deck is playable, just needed an update.

    i added signal pest main deck which has made the shadow creatures really ill. before yeah i would say they were subpar. a 2/2 shadow creature who cares really. but signal pest not only pumps them up but also has evasion itself. so now your shadows are 3/2 or even more at times. the evasion of signal pest allows you to cast hatred on it which is an ideal hatred target. pest is way better then the zombies. i'm also going to be testing ornithopter and putrid imp in the deck since they both fly and have evasion as well. will also be looking for any other creatures i may have overlooked like signal pest. if you can swing every turn and not get blocked and get pumped up, that is some kind of tech in hatred. also signal pest allows you to pay less life for hatred leaving you in a slightly less vulnerable spot.

    main deck phyrexian revoker also gives the deck game vs Jace, Sensei's Divining Top, Aether Vial, Isochron Scepter, Cranial Plating, Arcbound Ravager and Vedalkan Shackles as well as any annoying equipment like Jitte.

    lastly, mesmeric fiend is proving incredibly strong in the current format. i can't tell you how many times i have killed opponents by casting hatred on turn 3 with mesmeric fiend. people laugh sure, but they are dead. after you see their hand, you just kill them. i got the idea from a guy i tested with ages ago named BEEFED. here is the old thread. BEEFED also recommended putrid imp in this thread as well.

    http://forum.tcgplayer.com/showthrea...e-Black/page4&

    the negators are gone. the main reason i ran them is the deck needed more damage, now signal pest has answered that so, no need really.

    hatred

    sideboard
    4 cursed scroll
    4 dystopia
    2 umezawa's jitte
    2 faerie macabre
    2 extirpate
    1 bojuka bog

    main
    13 swamp
    4 crystal vein
    4 wasteland
    1 bojuka bog
    4 dark ritual
    4 hatred
    1 diabolic intent
    1 grim tutor
    4 vampire lacerator (may drop this for ornithopter or putrid imp for evasion, still testing)
    4 signal pest
    4 phyrexian revoker
    4 mesmeric fiend
    4 dauthi horror
    4 dauthi slayer
    4 hypnotic specter

    it is funny how strong pest is in this deck. even if they kill it, it doesn't matter really. even if you just swing for 1 turn with it, the damage is done. its unreal. i expect to see it in other aggressive decks as well beyond affinity. the deck is really fast. once i have some tournament results i will post them here.

    also for those who are running phylactery lich you may want to add signal pest and phyrexian revoker for additional phylactery targets. if i were running lich i would also run jitte and cursed scroll main deck. i doubt i can squeeze lich into this deck. no need really. and it doesn’t have evasion anyway.

    peace.

    necrowil

    “I have seen the true path. I will not warm myself by the fire—I will become the flame.”
    —Lim-Dûl, the Necromancer

  6. #1806
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    Re: [Deck] Suicide Black

    It's not exactly hard to get Canceller out early. You would have to change the deck significantly to do it, however. Obviously, it's easy enough to pump him out Turn 2 if you're playing Rituals which you should be as this is bloody Sui Black. Getting him out Turn 1, however, would require the use of more Mana Accel. Chrome Mox works well for this (and I don't mind the card disadvantage if I've got a Turn freaking 1 Canceller), but I'm personally partial to Mox Diamond. Yes, you would need to run quite a few Swamps, but that allows you to make your yard bigger fairly quickly and thereby get a big fat Tombstalker out earlier.

    You know what, never mind all of this for Sui. Canceller doesn't belong in it. This sounds like the making of a midrange monster.
    Quote Originally Posted by Pinder View Post
    Now, how can you be sure it's rape when there's no way to tell if a barnacle is consenting or not? For all we know it was actually two first time lesbian barnacles who signed a release for the footage to be used in the newest installment of Barnacles Gone Wild: Seafoam Splash.

  7. #1807

    Re: [Deck] Suicide Black

    After doing a bit of testing I've come to the distinct conclusion that the new Phyrexian Obliterator just doesn't fit in a traditional heavily aggro Suicide Black build. It's partially because he requires all black mana, but mainly because he costs 4 and the deck doesn't seem to play very smoothly with anything over 3 CMC in it. For more midrange and controlling mono black decks like The Gate I can see him being very good, but for Sui-Black I think his mana cost is a bit too restrictive.

    On a completely different note, I've actually been trying some re-worked versions of Sui-Black lately and I'm not sure exactly which I like better. My original tested list...

    ===============
    Legacy - Suicide Black
    ===============

    [24 Creatures]
    4 Carnophage
    4 Sarcomancy
    4 Nantuko Shade
    4 Flesh Reaver
    4 Phyrexian Negator
    4 Hypnotic Specter

    [16 Spells]
    4 Dark Ritual
    4 Thoughtseize
    4 Hymn to Tourach
    4 Sinkhole

    [20 Lands]
    4 Wasteland
    16 Swamp

    ~~~~~~~
    Sideboard
    ~~~~~~~
    2 Pithing Needle
    3 Planar Void
    3 Diabolic Edict
    3 Perish
    4 Snuff Out

    Or this new more heavily aggro list I've been toying with...


    =====================
    Legacy - Beatdown Suicide Black
    =====================

    [24 Creatures]
    4 Carnophage
    4 Sarcomancy
    4 Nantuko Shade
    4 Wretched Anurid
    4 Flesh Reaver
    4 Phyrexian Negator

    [7 Artifacts / Enchantments]
    4 Unholy Strength
    3 Cursed Scroll

    [8 Spells]
    4 Dark Ritual
    4 Snuff Out

    [21 Lands]
    4 Wasteland
    17 Swamp

    ~~~~~~~
    Sideboard
    ~~~~~~~
    3 Pithing Needle
    3 Yixlid Jailer
    3 Dread of Night
    2 Forsaken Wastes
    4 Mindbreak Trap
    The more I play the second list the more I've come to like it. The basic principle was to remove anything from the deck that didn't serve the express purpose of killing the opponent or removing blockers and replacing them with things that did. I think this harkens back to something pro tour player David Price said a long time ago... "While there are wrong answers, there are no wrong threats."
    So I took out the 4x Sinkhole, 4x Thoughtseize, and 4x Hymn to Tourach since they didn't help kill the opponent nor were they guaranteed methods of getting rid of blockers and replaced them with 4x Snuff Out, 4x Unholy Strength, 3x Cursed Scroll, and 1x additional Swamp. Also the Hypnotic Specters were removed in favor of Wretched Anurid, since he has a better power & toughness of 3/3 rather than 2/2 and costs one less mana to cast to boot. This goes along with the whole ideology of this deck, which is to kill the opponent as quickly as possible with the biggest black creatures available for their casting cost. Nothing more and nothing less.

    Overall I feel these changes do make the deck a great deal more aggressive and consistent. I'm sure I'll get some weird looks for the inclusion of things like Unholy Strength, which is clearly card dis-advantage, but repeated testing has shown it to be effective for me at getting in for at least 4 extra damage each game. It also helps the little zombies (Carnophage and Sarcomancy) continue to be relevant and effective at fighting through the mid game if the opponent starts playing some blockers.

    The only thing I'm still uncertain about for this new list is the 3x Cursed Scroll and 1x extra Swamp. I've been seriously considering replacing them with 4x Bad Moon since that would help get extra damage in and unlike the Scrolls it's never a dead draw when you draw multiples of them. On the flip side, I do really like having 7 forms of creature removal in the deck (4x Snuff out & 3x Cursed Scroll) and the deck does empty it's hand fast enough to make the Scroll useful.
    I'm also still not fully decided on the sideboard. I rarely see other mono black decks in my meta, but when I do get matched up against one (The Gate usually) I'd really like to have some effective removal other than Snuff Out handy to deal with their creatures. Because of this I'm thinking that Diabolic Edict may take the 3x slot in the sideboard that Dread of Night is currently in.

    To Necrowil and others, what are your thoughts on my new list and the overall philosophy of removing some "answers" for more "threats"?
    Sligh : Winning with bad cards since 1996
    Pox : Enjoy the crisp refreshing taste of your opponent's suffering

  8. #1808

    Re: [Deck] Suicide Black

    Quote Originally Posted by Jin15 View Post
    After doing a bit of testing I've come to the distinct conclusion that the new Phyrexian Obliterator just doesn't fit in a traditional heavily aggro Suicide Black build. It's partially because he requires all black mana, but mainly because he costs 4 and the deck doesn't seem to play very smoothly with anything over 3 CMC in it. For more midrange and controlling mono black decks like The Gate I can see him being very good, but for Sui-Black I think his mana cost is a bit too restrictive.

    On a completely different note, I've actually been trying some re-worked versions of Sui-Black lately and I'm not sure exactly which I like better. My original tested list...




    Or this new more heavily aggro list I've been toying with...




    The more I play the second list the more I've come to like it. The basic principle was to remove anything from the deck that didn't serve the express purpose of killing the opponent or removing blockers and replacing them with things that did. I think this harkens back to something pro tour player David Price said a long time ago... "While there are wrong answers, there are no wrong threats."
    So I took out the 4x Sinkhole, 4x Thoughtseize, and 4x Hymn to Tourach since they didn't help kill the opponent nor were they guaranteed methods of getting rid of blockers and replaced them with 4x Snuff Out, 4x Unholy Strength, 3x Cursed Scroll, and 1x additional Swamp. Also the Hypnotic Specters were removed in favor of Wretched Anurid, since he has a better power & toughness of 3/3 rather than 2/2 and costs one less mana to cast to boot. This goes along with the whole ideology of this deck, which is to kill the opponent as quickly as possible with the biggest black creatures available for their casting cost. Nothing more and nothing less.

    Overall I feel these changes do make the deck a great deal more aggressive and consistent. I'm sure I'll get some weird looks for the inclusion of things like Unholy Strength, which is clearly card dis-advantage, but repeated testing has shown it to be effective for me at getting in for at least 4 extra damage each game. It also helps the little zombies (Carnophage and Sarcomancy) continue to be relevant and effective at fighting through the mid game if the opponent starts playing some blockers.

    The only thing I'm still uncertain about for this new list is the 3x Cursed Scroll and 1x extra Swamp. I've been seriously considering replacing them with 4x Bad Moon since that would help get extra damage in and unlike the Scrolls it's never a dead draw when you draw multiples of them. On the flip side, I do really like having 7 forms of creature removal in the deck (4x Snuff out & 3x Cursed Scroll) and the deck does empty it's hand fast enough to make the Scroll useful.
    I'm also still not fully decided on the sideboard. I rarely see other mono black decks in my meta, but when I do get matched up against one (The Gate usually) I'd really like to have some effective removal other than Snuff Out handy to deal with their creatures. Because of this I'm thinking that Diabolic Edict may take the 3x slot in the sideboard that Dread of Night is currently in.

    To Necrowil and others, what are your thoughts on my new list and the overall philosophy of removing some "answers" for more "threats"?
    Go for the Throat in the SB?

  9. #1809

    Re: [Deck] Suicide Black

    You may want to experiment with Soul Spike. Like 1 to 4. Soul Spike is black’s version of Fireblast in my opinion. It’s definitely faster then Cursed Scroll and if you get stuck holding extra Unholy Strengths after they have taken care of your creatures you can just throw them at your opponent. I don’t think Cursed Scroll belongs main deck really. But I would run it over Snuff Out in the main. I would also start Jitte over Scrolls. Snuff main is another reason you may want Soul Spike in the deck. Snuff is potentially a dead card. So you may try

    -4 Unholy Strength
    +3 Umezawa’s Jitte
    +1 Cursed Sroll

    or the like with Soul Spike or Dark Triumph

    I really have not tested Unholy Strength. I can understand how it might be faster. You might also test Sinister Strength as well. I think it costs 1B and gives +3/+1. But I would also investigate main deck Umezawa’s Jitte, like 2 or 3. If only in the sideboard. Yeah, it’s slower, but ritual helps that. The thing is a lot of times if you get Jitte out, they just scoop because some decks cannot deal with it game 1. It also is useful vs other creature decks more then Unholy Strength.

    As far as Obliterator, I have not tested it yet, but I’m sure I will probably agree with your findings. Definitely, you have to change the deck to accommodate it. I would add 3 Culling the Weak and two Lake of the Dead to ensure I can see 4 black mana early. Not that hard to achieve. Keep in mind Obliterator may make a solid sideboard card vs red or creature decks even if it has no place main deck. Or it may be a card you run 2 main, 2 in the board. But yeah, I think it belongs in a more control black deck.

    You might also try Dark Triumph. It’s free and you can sacrifice Negator if you need to it.

    Regarding Hypnotic Specter. As you see, my deck is not running discard spells either like Duress, Thoughtseize and Hymn. Although I may add Hymn because its 2 for 1 usually which helps us. What I run are discard creatures like Mesmeric Fiend and Hypnotic Specter. These cards are really strong in my deck. I can’t tell you how many times I have killed someone with Mesmeric Fiend on Turn 3 after seeing they have no way to stop it on turn 2 with. Specter may not deal a ton of damage, but I guarantee you, removing the cards from your opponents hand will win you many games. I don’t like Wretched Anurid at all. If I played him, I might play 1. No more. If you have 2 out and they play 3 spells… that hurts. Honestly I think Skittering Skirge is a better card.

    Also another card which I love in this deck is Signal Pest. It’s good in my deck because of the fact it cannot be blocked except by creatures with flying to reach and it boosts all of my creatures. It’s a good target for Hatred. If they kill it who cares?

    Also Phyrexian Revoker is good against a lot of decks like Countertop or Vedalken Shacklers or any activated card decks really. I like them a lot in the board.

    Anyway, I know it’s a lot of suggestions, but I hope that helps.

    Peace.

    Necrowil

    “I have seen the true path. I will not warm myself by the fire—I will become the flame.”
    —Lim-Dûl, the Necromancer

  10. #1810

    Re: [Deck] Suicide Black

    Thanks for sharing your thoughts Necrowil! :)

    First off, in regards to Soul Spike I really like it and think it merits testing. It's not as situational as Kaervek's Spite and as you said is very much like having a black Fireblast. I could definitely see running it as a 4 of since it's never bad to draw multiples, since you can just pitch the multiple to the one you cast. I'm going to give it a shot at some point soon and report back with my findings.

    In regards to Unholy Strength and Sinister Strength, while I'm not a big fan of Sinister Strength due to it costing 2 CMC I'd strongly encourage you to give Unholy Strength a try. I know it seems really janky but I assure you it does work quite well in straight up aggro builds. At worst it gives you what amounts to a black Shock and at best it can shorten games by several turns, help run over larger creatures with previously smaller ones, and get in for 4 or more damage in a game from only a single [B] mana. It also works to slap on a little Zombie to draw out a Swords to Plowshares on it so your bigger creatures can get through. When that happens you basically pay [B] to gain 2 life and redirect an opponent's removal to one of your less powerful creatures rather than a more important one. And don't even get me started on the ridiculous turn 1 Dark Ritual plays you can do with it. Land, Dark Rit, Sarcomancy, Carnophage, Unholy Strength. Or Land, Dark Rit, Flesh Reaver, Unholy Strength. Either way your opponent is now on 4 turn clock to deal with your 6 power worth of beaters on turn one, or 3 turns if they fetch twice or if you have a Soul Spike / Kaervek's Spite in hand.
    So yeah, as bad as it might initially seem I think Unholy Strength is just awesome in Suicide Black and I'd highly encourage giving it a try.

    On to the matter of creatures... I love Hypnotic Specter. He's won me several games just by the fact that he forces a random discard every turn. After 2 or 3 hits with him the opponent is in what just about amounts to a soft lock. My problem with him though, and the reason I cut him from my list, is that running six creatures that cost 3 CMC really felt like it was bogging down the deck and muddling up the mana curve. So I came to the conclusion that I needed to pick between Phyrexian Negator and Hypnotic Specter to keep the mana curve smooth, and being a 5/5 trample for [2][B] seemed more in line with the deck's goal of killing the opponent as quickly as possible than a 2/2 flyer for [1][B][B] so I went with the Negator.

    The one creature in the deck I am kinda iffy about though is, as you mentioned, the Wretched Anurid. I really feel like the deck needs 23 or 24 creatures to be an effective aggro deck, and Anurid is really efficient being a 3/3 for [1][B], but he's probably the least impressive of any creature in the deck and quite risky since unlike every other creature that loses you life there's just no way to shut off the life loss from Anurid. With Carnophage you can choose to tap him, with Flesh Reaver you can choose not to attack, and with Sarcomancy you can just play another zombie and the life loss shuts off. But with Wretched Anurid there's just no way to stop the bleeding. On the upside though he does play nicely with Wasteland due to his [1][B] casting cost, can be a 5/4 on turn 1 off a Dark Ritual + Unholy Strength, will shut off life loss from Sarcomancy since he is a Zombie, and is just generally really solid in terms of efficiency being 3/3 for 2 CMC. Still though, the inability to shut off life loss from him is a bit of a concern so I am looking into other potential options to replace him.
    Your suggestion of Skittering Skirge is an interesting one worth consideration, but I do think he's counterproductive to the deck's overall goal of being as aggro as possible since once you play him you can't play any other creatures without killing him. I'm still willing to give him a test though to see how it goes.

    Right now the creature I'm favoring the most to replace Wretched Anurid with is hands down Black Knight. The Knight would certainly be the least efficient creature in the deck, since his power is equal to his casting cost (unlike every other creature who's power is greater than their casting cost or in the case of Nantuko Shade will quickly become greater) but I can't help but feel he'd be pretty awesome in the current format due to having first strike and protection from White. Pro-white in legacy right now means protection from the 2 most commonly played removal spells : Swords to Plowshares and Path to Exile. He also has protection from Vindicate, Lightning Helix, Snuff Out, Ghastly Demise, Vendetta, Doom Blade / Terror, Steppe Lynx, Loam Lion, Quasali Pridemage, Knight of the Reliquary, Serra Avenger, Stoneforge Mystic, the entire deck Death and Taxes, and quite a bit more as well. This makes him a fantastic beater and would be the best target in the deck for Unholy Strength. He blanks removal and cruises past a large number of creatures in the format, and since he has First Strike that means the ones who can block him will likely have to chump rather than trade (especially if he's pumped from Bad Moon or Unholy Strength).

    Alternately the pump knights (Order of the Ebon Hand, Knight of Stromgald, and Stromgald Crusader) could be worth consideration but I think given how tight the mana curve is in the deck and the fact that we're already running Nantuko Shade makes Black Knight just plain better in terms of efficiency. Lastly, not that it's a real factor or anything, but the art and flavor text on the Alpha/Beta/Unlimited/Revised versions of Black Knight are totally awesome lol
    In any case, I will be testing Black Knight in place of Wretched Anurid to see what I think.


    There's a lot more I'd like to talk about, but I've probably babbled on for long enough for I'll leave it at this...
    - You're right, Phyrexian Revoker is perfect for the sideboard. He beats, he hates, he plays nice with Wasteland.
    - Yixlid Jailer is also excellent for hating and beating. Graveyard based combo decks rarely have a way to deal with him in my experience since the removal they usually board in is for artifacts & enchantments.
    - I'm still not sold on Signal Pest, since he can't attack on his own. I might think differently if I played Hatred. Also, Jitte seems too slow and mana intensive to me but I could be wrong.
    - I'm not a fan of running any non-basics other than Wasteland, since that makes you vulnerable to Wasteland in a deck that is already really tight on permanent black mana sources and Wasteland is being played in larger numbers than ever right now.
    - Not firmly sold on Bad Moon yet, but I am trying it since it is much better in multiples than Cursed Scroll and is immediately useful.
    - I've tweaked the sideboard a lot and I'm really happy with it now. It's mostly hate for combo since we flat out win control matches and most aggro matchups are pretty good as well. Diabolic Edict has been added to keep removal handy against other mono black decks and is also useful to deal with Emrakul, Progenitus, and other large creatures in the Sneak & Show matchup.

    Cue current list...

    =========
    Suicide Black
    =========

    [24 Creatures]
    4 Carnophage
    4 Sarcomancy
    4 Wretched Anurid (might get replaced by Black Knight)
    4 Flesh Reaver
    4 Nantuko Shade
    4 Phyrexian Negator

    [8 Spells]
    4 Dark Ritual
    4 Snuff Out

    [8 Enchantments]
    4 Unholy Strength
    4 Bad Moon (will test Soul Spike in this slot at some future point)

    [20 Lands]
    4 Wasteland
    16 Swamp

    ~~~~~~~
    Sideboard
    ~~~~~~~
    3 Phyrexian Revoker
    3 Yixlid Jailer
    3 Diabolic Edict
    2 Forsaken Wastes
    4 Mindbreak Trap
    Last edited by Jin15; 04-28-2011 at 05:03 AM.
    Sligh : Winning with bad cards since 1996
    Pox : Enjoy the crisp refreshing taste of your opponent's suffering

  11. #1811

    Re: [Deck] Suicide Black

    Yeah, I feel you on the hippy. Negator is beatdown. Hippy is like agro control. Your deck is pure aggro and mine is aggro control combo really so they obviously will be different. A while back, I suggested you replace Carnophage with Vampire Lacerator simply because it’s a better card. Check out Robert the Bruce’s list back on page 85. It’s Hatred but Lacerator is just a better card to run over Carnophage. Robert the Bruce runs both. Definitely over Anurid. Pure agro is really a black sligh deck. I think black knight is slow.

    I’d probably run

    16 swamp
    4 city of traitors

    4 sarcomancy
    4 carnophage
    4 vampire lacerator
    4 flesh reaver
    4 nantuko shade
    4 phyrexian negator

    4 dark ritual
    4 unholy strength
    4 dark triumph
    4 soul spike

    But like I said I have not tried Unholy Strength. And yeah, pest is probably not as good in your deck, but in my deck, my creatures are smaller and have evasion. Evasion is king for hatred. But I don’t think there is a reason not to play Lacerator really.

    Also City let’s you play a turn 2 Negator since you are concerned about 3cc. You could run Wasteland in the Sideboard if needed. But Anurid is a bad card in this deck in my opinion. The only reason I’m suggesting Triumph is for the occasion when you really don’t want to take damage to your Flesh Reaver or your Negator. They sit in your hand til you need them and you can pitch them to Spike.

    Peace.

    Necrowil

    “I have seen the true path. I will not warm myself by the fire—I will become the flame.”
    —Lim-Dûl, the Necromancer

  12. #1812

    Re: [Deck] Suicide Black

    What do you guys think about a Phyrexian Obliterator, Hatred, Dark Ritual build with 3 Lake of the Dead? Lake of the Dead works well when you get enough swamps, so it may require Confidant to feed the Lake. Maybe a couple Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth to turn extra Lakes into swamps. Nantuko Shade would like all the mana from Lake of the Dead, too. Probably too inconsistent to work, though.

  13. #1813
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    Re: [Deck] Suicide Black

    Please forgive my laziness, but I have a few questions about this archetype and I would really appreciate if someone that has followed this deck for a while could answer them, rather than having to dig through 90 pages of discussion.

    First, why no Bob? I understand that most of the creatures Sui Black runs have power > casting cost, but he still swings for 2, and the (non-hatred) curve of the deck is extremely low. It seems like if you could get one to stick around for even a couple turns, you could drastically increase the pressure on your opponent.

    Also, I don't really understand why Obliterator has already been dismissed. Looking at the creatures in recent lists, don't you have problems with the number of low-cost fatties that inhabit the meta now? Even though you can drop potentially 5 2/x creatures by turn 2, Zoo can drop a 3/3 cat and a ~3/4 goyf by then, followed by a 4/4+ knight the turn after that. Even with negator, don't you hit a point of diminishing returns fairly quickly?

    I've been thinking of taking my Deadguy list in a more aggro/sui direction, and just want to get a better understanding of the deck and how it plays out.

  14. #1814

    Re: [Deck] Suicide Black

    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Cheese View Post
    Please forgive my laziness, but I have a few questions about this archetype and I would really appreciate if someone that has followed this deck for a while could answer them, rather than having to dig through 90 pages of discussion.

    First, why no Bob? I understand that most of the creatures Sui Black runs have power > casting cost, but he still swings for 2, and the (non-hatred) curve of the deck is extremely low. It seems like if you could get one to stick around for even a couple turns, you could drastically increase the pressure on your opponent.

    Also, I don't really understand why Obliterator has already been dismissed. Looking at the creatures in recent lists, don't you have problems with the number of low-cost fatties that inhabit the meta now? Even though you can drop potentially 5 2/x creatures by turn 2, Zoo can drop a 3/3 cat and a ~3/4 goyf by then, followed by a 4/4+ knight the turn after that. Even with negator, don't you hit a point of diminishing returns fairly quickly?

    I've been thinking of taking my Deadguy list in a more aggro/sui direction, and just want to get a better understanding of the deck and how it plays out.
    Well I can't speak for everyone else, but I can tell you why I don't run Bob. The reason is because, as you pointed out, he's not terribly efficient due to being a 2/1 for [1][B]. This lack of aggressivness is compounded by the fact that once you play him you want to start drawing extra cards every turn so you often find yourself not swinging with him for fear of him being blocked and lost. Also, the amount of life loss you can take before you start losing life at a faster rate than the opponent is a fine line in this deck. I run Carnophage, Sarcomancy, Wretched Anurid, Flesh Reaver, and Snuff Out so I end up losing a lot of life over the course of a game. Most often this life loss is at just a slightly slower rate than the opponent is losing life to my creatures, and the addition of Bob (which I have tested) causes me to end up losing life at a faster rate the opponent more often than not. In pure beatdown builds like mine, which suffer massive life loss during a game, you really need your creatures to be as big and aggressive as possible to insure that you kill the opponent before you end up killing yourself. There's no time to wait, draw some extra cards, and accumulate card advatanage.
    The only focus of the deck is to kill the opponent as fast as possible. No concern for card advantage or trying to control the board here, just killing the opponent as fast as possible without killing yourself first. That's the goal of a beatdown Sui-Black deck like mine, so every card in the main deck is chosen for the purposes of killing the opponent as quickly as possible or removing blocker that might get in your way.

    In regards to the Obliterator, I think it just comes down to his mana cost. If you want to run things like Lake of the Dead and Chrome Mox to increase the consistency of your ability to get him out early than I'd say go for it. I just prefer to stick with Swamps and Wastelands for consistency reasons and I'm pretty happy with the 5/5 trample for [2][B] that I've got. It seems counter productive to me to make the mana base weaker and more vulnerable to Wasteland so I can pay [B][B][B][B] for a 5/5 trample when I can leave things nice and consistent the way they are and pay [2][B] for a 5/5 trample instead.

    In regards to the Zoo issue, there's really only 1 person in my meta who plays Zoo and I've actually never been matched up against him. Against decks like Merfolk and Goblins (which there are a fair number of in my meta, mainly Merfolk) I'm not too concerned since my creatures are always bigger than theirs so I tend to keep the opponent always on the defensive and chump blocking. If there was more Zoo in my meta I might consider alternate choices (like playing creatures with evasion + Hatred like Necrowil) but since my meta is mostly combo & control my creatures choices function very well. I will do some testing against Zoo on thursday (a week from today) and let you know how it goes though. I'm feeling pretty confident that when running Wretched Anurid, Flesh Reaver, Phyrexian Negator, Unholy Strength, and Bad Moon my creatures will be consistently bigger than theirs and still keep them on the defensive, but I honestly won't be able to say for sure until I do some real testing against Zoo. Fortunately the 1 Zoo player in my meta is a friend of mine so getting him to test against me should be pretty easy :)
    Sligh : Winning with bad cards since 1996
    Pox : Enjoy the crisp refreshing taste of your opponent's suffering

  15. #1815

    Re: [Deck] Suicide Black

    so did you check out lacerator?

  16. #1816

    Re: [Deck] Suicide Black

    Quote Originally Posted by necrowil View Post
    so did you check out lacerator?
    I do like the Lacerator, and I own a set as well, but I still prefer Carnophage. The reasoning being is that Carnophage will shut off life loss from Sarcomancy (this is a huge plus to me) and he always gives you the option of whether or not to lose life to him. With Lacerator you have to lose life unless the opponent is at less than 10, where as with Carnophage you can always choose to tap him during your upkeep to shut off the life loss. Mind you this rarely ever becomes an issue, but there are times when it is (especially in my build due to the other creatures I play that lose me life and Snuff Out) and in those times I'm happy to have Carnophage instead.

    I certainly wouldn't advise anyone against playing Vampire Lacerator, since he's definitely one of the best aggressive black 1 drops ever, but for various reasons I do prefer Carnophage. If I wanted more than 8 one drop creatures though I'd definitely run Lacerator as well.
    Sligh : Winning with bad cards since 1996
    Pox : Enjoy the crisp refreshing taste of your opponent's suffering

  17. #1817

    Re: [Deck] Suicide Black

    Well I gave Unholy Strength a try. I really like it. Thanks for the suggestion. And yeah, the deck looks pretty damn janky now but plays well. Usually what ends up happening is I play my creatures 1st and the ones they can’t deal with get pumped up with unholy strength and yeah they end up wasting removal on signal pest and the like. Also I abandoned Wastelands now in favor of Phyrexian Revoker. This card alone shuts down so much that Suicide has trouble with from Maze of Ith, Pernicious Deed, Jace, Sensei’s Divining Top, Grim Lavamancer, Vedalkan Shackles, etc. If you haven’t checked it out, its an awesome sideboard card. My board is

    Sideboard

    4 phyrexian revoker
    4 cursed scroll
    2 faerie macabre
    2 bojuka bog
    2 extirpate
    1 umezawa’s jitte

    The main deck looks plays and feels odd. The tutors are not fantastic but they do help me kill someone faster at times. Where they really shine is game 2. I tutor for any card I need. But again my deck is agro-control-combo so obviously our lists are different. I’m still a fan of using Jitte main over cursed scroll, but I hear you on them being slow, but its still a broken card in most games. I also am play the new Vault Skirge main deck which gives all my creatures evasion so I basically, never get blocked.

    Main

    14 swamp
    4 crystal vein

    4 dark ritual
    4 unholy strength
    4 hatred
    2 umezawa’s jitte
    2 diabolic intent
    2 grim tutor

    4 vault skirge
    4 signal pest
    4 mesmeric fiend
    4 dauthi horror
    4 dauthi slayer
    4 hypnotic specter

    I was kind of surprised how good the card is. Especially with Signal Pest. If both start swing you start gaining mad life, plus Unholy Strength is basically made for it. And finally, I tried out Obliterator and liked it more then I thought I would, but I had to change my mana base to this

    18 swamp
    1 lake of the dead
    4 dark ritual
    3 culling the weak

    This basically guaranteed I could cast it. But its excessive. Its basically 28 possible sources of black. You really don’t want more then 1 lake in a game or more then 3 Culling the Weak, but he’s good. I think it could be a strong card in another deck. Also I can’t use Soul Spike in my deck as I’m running artifacts.

    I think if you built an agro control version of suicide black it could work with discard and sinkhole and optimum creatures, but neither of our decks is pure agro control. Something like

    18 swamp
    4 wasteland
    2 lake of the dead
    4 dark ritual
    4 thoughtseize
    4 hymn to tourach
    4 sinkhole
    4 go for the throat
    4 nantuko shade
    4 flesh reaver
    4 phyrexian negator
    4 hypnotic specter
    4 phyrexian obliterator

    but I’m not interested in that because it doesn’t kill the opponent fast enough. Both of us run faster decks then that.

    Peace.

    Necrowil

    “I have seen the true path. I will not warm myself by the fire—I will become the flame.”
    —Lim-Dûl, the Necromancer

  18. #1818

    Re: [Deck] Suicide Black

    Jin,

    instead of Wretched Anurid, have you tried running Bloodghast? I think it's going to be a stronger card for you since you weren't interested in Lacerator. I'm actually moving to all 1-2 drop guys with Bloodghast also. It's a good card because basically they will have to remove it form the game. Meanwhile it keeps coming back.

    Peace.

    Necrowil

    “I have seen the true path. I will not warm myself by the fire—I will become the flame.”
    —Lim-Dûl, the Necromancer

  19. #1819
    Member

    Join Date

    Dec 2010
    Location

    Canada
    Posts

    64

    Re: [Deck] Suicide Black

    Bloodghast goes well with culling the weak if your actually gonna run that card too.

    Also you mentionned phyrexian revoker, take note it says nonland permanent so it can't name maze of ith (thought I'd post just so you don't get screwed by someone)

  20. #1820

    Re: [Deck] Suicide Black

    So now that Obliterator has entered the equation, which creature better rounds out the deck, Tombstalker or Dark Cofidant?

    If the answer is Dark Confidant, something similar to my approach to The Gate should work quite well...

    4 Vampire Nighthawk
    4 Dark Confidant
    4 Phyrexian Obliterator
    4 Gatekeeper of Malakir

    4 Dark Ritual
    4 Hymn to Tourach
    3 Go for the Throat
    3 Duress
    2 Inquisition of Kozilek
    2 Mental Misstep
    2 Smother
    2 Hypnotic Specter
    2 Umezawa's Jitte

    20 Swamp

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