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Thread: [Deck] Suicide Black

  1. #1821

    [Deck] Suicide Black

    i've been working on a monoblack aggro-control deck but i would not call it suicide black really

    main
    18 snow-covered swamp
    4 wasteland
    4 dark ritual
    4 phyrexian arena
    4 hymn to tourach
    4 go for the throat
    2 withering wisps
    4 nantuko shade
    4 bloodghast
    4 hypnotic specter
    4 vampire nighthawk
    4 gatekeeper of malakir

    the sideboard is still in the works but it plays quite well. i like arena over confidant. i also like withering wisps a lot with bloodghast you can keep it in play. i may add thoughtseize main deck but i'm not sure what i would cut for it. the object is play arena. draw a bunch of cards, remove there hand, then their threats and then them. its slow but effective

  2. #1822

    Re: [Deck] Suicide Black

    I do really like your mono black aggro/control list necrowil! It's not really Sui, but it looks pretty darn solid. The only things I would change if I was building it would be to swap the 2 Withering Wisps out for 2 Damnation since it seems a bit more efficient and less self damaging if mass removal is what you're after and swap the Arenas for Confidants since you have no way to get rid of the Arena but Confidants can be easily removed. It just seems to me like in a control deck that looks more towards the late game that putting yourself on any kind of clock to win by might not be the best idea. Also, I'd probably drop the Dark Rituals for Thoughtsieze or Inquisition of Kozilek since this deck looks like more of a late game focused deck that isn't particularly tempo driven.

    Those are just my thoughts though, and having never played the particular deck in question I'm just going on theory where as you've been actually playing with it so I could be totally off the mark here.


    Back on the topic of Sui-Black I did finally get all the cards I needed for my Sui list and played it in a 26 (I think? It was 20-something at least) person Legacy tournament on thursday. For reference, here's the list I played...

    =========
    Suicide Black
    =========

    [24 Creatures]
    4 Carnophage
    4 Sarcomancy
    4 Wretched Anurid
    4 Flesh Reaver
    4 Nantuko Shade
    4 Phyrexian Negator

    [8 Spells]
    4 Dark Ritual
    4 Snuff Out

    [8 Enchantments]
    4 Unholy Strength
    4 Bad Moon

    [20 Lands]
    4 Wasteland
    16 Swamp

    ~~~~~~~
    Sideboard
    ~~~~~~~
    3 Phyrexian Revoker
    3 Yixlid Jailer
    3 Diabolic Edict
    2 Forsakan Wastes
    4 Mindbreak Trap


    I ended up going 2-2, which I was okay with for my first shot and testing an new deck in a well developed metagame. My 2 wins were against ANT and Affinity and my 2 losses were to Hate Crimes (that B/W Vial list from the recent Star City tournament) and Reanimator. The win against Affinity was hard fought but manageable after boarding in Phyrexian Revoker and Diabolic Edict to increase my removal and give me a way to shut off Cranial Plating. Against ANT it was just a matter of out racing him Game 1 and then boarding in 4 Mindbreak Trap and getting one in my opening hand on Game 2, so pretty easy stuff there.

    The wins weren't the interesting part though, what was of real interest to me were the losses since those taught me a good bit about how to improve my deck. The first big thing I learned was that I'm going to be waaaaay better off running 4 Cursed Scroll in the spot that the 4 Bad Moon are in. During game 2 in both the Renanimator and Hate Crimes matchups I found myself in a position where I either had a Bad Moon on the board or in my hand and lost, but could have won if that Bad Moon had been a Cursed Scroll instead.
    In the Reanimator matchup it came down to me getting him to 4 life before he reanimated Blazing Archon one turn and then Iona the next. At that point I was holding a Bad Moon and a Swamp in my hand, had 4 lands and a bunch of creatures on the board, and couldn't attack due to the Archon and couldn't play anything black due to the Iona. If that Bad Moon was a Cursed Scroll I could have won.
    In the Hate Crimes match it was just a matter of him having a bunch of little 1 and 2 toughness dudes (Mother of Runes, Tidehollow Sculler, Confidant, Phyrexian Revoker, Stoneforge Mystic, etc.) that I couldn't always kill with Snuff Out due to some of them being black and Mom giving the others pro-black. I got enough land to the point that I could have been using 2 Cursed Scrolls at once but alas, what was sitting on the board was 2 Bad Moon which only made his creatures kill me faster. That was a situation in which I really needed some colorless and reusable removal and I'm quite certain I could have won the matchup if my Bad Moons were Cursed Scrolls.

    Additional testing after the tournament against other aggro decks like Zoo, Merfolk, and Aggro Elves confirmed to me once again that the Moons are coming out for Scrolls. They lower the mana curve and give my Sui list a heck of a lot better matchup against other aggro decks I think. Control and combo decks are generally very good matchups for Sui, but other aggro decks (and even midrange decks that pack a decent number of creatures) can be very difficult for my Sui list to deal with and the Scrolls go a long way towards improving these more difficult matchups.

    Lastly, I've come to the definite conclusion that Pithing Needle will be taking the sideboard slot of Phyrexian Revoker and Planar Void will be replacing Yixlid Jailer. I found the Revokers to be too vulnerable to removal in situations where I absolutely had to shut off an artifact if I wanted to win (such as a Jitte or Cranial Plating for example). Sure, the Revokers can beat as well as hate, but the situations where I find myself boarding them in are ones where I will almost surely lose the game if I don't shut off whatever it is that's causing me trouble, and in those situations I want my hate to be as impervious to removal as possible. Planar Void will be replacing Yixlid Jailer for the simple reason of it being more versatile. It can come in against Zoo and aggro Loam to shut down Tarmogoyf and KotR, works effectively against Reanimator, and can hate on Dredge as well. Where as I think the only thing the Jailer is really effective at hating on is Dredge and Breakfast and that's pretty much it. Versatility + a lower mana cost is a good thing I think :)


    Which brings me to the matter of Necrowil's suggestion of Bloodghast! He's is a cool dude for sure and I love him in Pox. Even though his power doesn't exceed his mana cost the fact that in absence of graveyard hate he's pretty much immortal is rather awesome. However, since I am going to be running Planar Void as my graveyard hate of choice I think I'm going to pass on Bloodghast and keep running Wretched Anurid for the time being. There is a new creature from New Phyrexia though that I think could potentially replace Wretched Anurid and may be more effective. That being the phyrexian white mana creature Porcelain Legionnaire. Getting a 3/1 first strike creature for 2 generic mana and 2 life seems pretty solid to me and would probably result in less life loss of the course of most games than the Anurid. And when coupled with Unholy Strength I think a 5/2 first strike creature could be pretty tough for a lot of opponents to deal with if they don't draw the Swords. On the downside though he's a bit more vulnerable to burn spells.

    Anyhoo, I've babbled on long enough for now so I'll leave you with my current and post-tournament updated list with the changes made that I feel will improve the deck's overall performance in the next tournament I attend...


    =========
    Suicide Black
    =========

    [24 Creatures]
    4 Carnophage
    4 Sarcomancy
    4 Wretched Anurid
    4 Flesh Reaver
    4 Nantuko Shade
    4 Phyrexian Negator

    [8 Spells]
    4 Dark Ritual
    4 Snuff Out

    [8 Artifacts/Enchantments]
    4 Cursed Scroll
    4 Unholy Strength

    [20 Lands]
    4 Wasteland
    16 Swamp

    ~~~~~~~
    Sideboard
    ~~~~~~~
    3 Pithing Needle
    3 Planar Void
    3 Diabolic Edict
    2 Forsakan Wastes
    4 Mindbreak Trap
    Sligh : Winning with bad cards since 1996
    Pox : Enjoy the crisp refreshing taste of your opponent's suffering

  3. #1823

    Re: [Deck] Suicide Black

    I probably miss sth. here. You mentioned your Combo MU is good, how can that be.
    Your goldfish win is probably turn 3-4 leaning towards 4-5. You have 0 disruption for combo in the main and only 4 Traps in the side.
    I like the idea of Scroll btw.

  4. #1824

    Re: [Deck] Suicide Black

    Rituals stay in any black deck out there in my opinion. Legacy is a format you need to be fast. You want to go Dark Ritual, Arena, go with this deck and the bottom line with putting yourself on a clock is this. If you are drawing more cards then your opponent is and can’t win, then you or your deck suck. That philosophy goes all the way back to Dennis Bentley’s Necrodeck which ran 4 copies of Necropotence and no way to get rid of it. And in his deck you wanted to go Ritual, Necropotence, Pay 4 to 5 life, go. I removed Go for the Throat in favor of Thoughtseize. And the deal with Withering Wisps is another win condition with Bloodghast. Wisps is also in there to damage any Planeswalker’s out there like Jace. I want to put in Promise of Power for even more card drawing so I can use Soul Spike.

    I find it interesting that you were able to race Affinity and win. I’m sure it was close. That is a tough matchup for me, but my creatures are smaller then yours.

    I don’t like Planar Void for the simple reason if they already have their cards in the graveyard they need to kill you then they don’t care. If you cast it and in response they pitch Iona, you are still screwed. Currently, there are a lot of combo decks in the format that abuse the graveyard. It comes this, my entire board is vs graveyard abuse decks and other creature decks bigger then mine. You may not have the 2nd problem. I run 6 cards for graveyard hate and the reality is it may not be enough. If you don’t draw it in your opening hand, do you mulligan? My deck is trying to kill them by turn 3, and I’m seeing now I need to be able to kill them by turn 2. This is why I don’t care that Hatred loses to stuff like Burn. Grand Prix Providence is coming up. You may find a Burn deck in the Top 8, but more then that? I seriously doubt it. Just look at recent tournaments and see how many are in Top 8 at starcitygames.com. I run this for graveyard hate.

    2 Surgical Extraction
    2 Faerie Macabre
    2 Extirpate

    Six cards for combo decks in the Sideboard, plus main deck Mesmeric Fiends is all I can afford really. That’s 10 cards. If I can’t shut down combo decks with 10 cards and win by turn 3 or 4 then my deck sucks basically. Legacy is defined by combo decks, then aggro control and aggro.

    As far as the deck is concerned you can focus on a balance of Hand Destruction, Graveyard Hate and Removal. If you skip one of those, well your deck better be so aggressive that it doesn’t matter what is in their hand or graveyard or what creatures they play.

    I think you should check out Bloodghast over Anurid for the following reasons.

    Bloodghast no care about being destroyed by Smother
    Bloodghast no care about Edict, Innocent Blood and the like
    Bloodghast no care about Counterspells
    Bloodghast will win you games you should not win
    Bloodghast allows me to use cards with Sacrifice effects like Culling the Weak and Diabolic Intent and Smallpox with little Drawback

    The card has one me so many games that I am looking to run Entomb main deck to make sure I get them every game and Putrid Imp to make sure I can dump them if I draw them. They are effectively a free creature just because I played a land. And yes, I’m going to add fetches just to ensure I can always put a land in play. The haste aspect is an added bonus late game especially because many rely on sorcery speed spells for removal.

    I have been in many situations online recently vs decks like Counter Top where they had no way to deal with Bloodghasts. Sure they run Path to Exile and Swords but they have to find one of those cards. Or Humility or Moat. None of the other cards in their entire deck can really effectively answer it well.

    If you really are not sold try out Rotting Giant or Sangrophage. Both have drawbacks that are not as bad as Anurid. I’ve also seen people run 1 Giant and 1 Sangrophage and 2 Anurid also. You should also check out Drekavac. You could play one of each to not be abuse by the effects of any one of them, but personally I’d play Bloodghast.

    Snuff Out is one of the best removal cards black has to offer. The problem is there are still a lot of black creatures out there that people will play.

    What do you use Forsaken Wastes against? Control? Most combo decks don’t care about it. And what do you side in Pithing Needle against. If you are using it vs CounterTop or Pernicious Deed and the like then I would argue again that Bloodghast is a better card. I used to run Revoker but honestly the format is so fast, he became irrelevant.

    Cursed Scroll is a really great card but it is not the answer for everything. 2-4 is a good number.

    And Mindbreak Trap, how does that work for you vs a Deck like ANT?

  5. #1825

    Re: [Deck] Suicide Black

    Obliterator Hatred

    Sideboard
    4 Hymn to Tourach
    4 Duress
    2 Surgical Extraction
    2 Sadistic Sacrament
    2 Extirpate
    1 Hecatomb

    Main
    10 Swamp
    2 Bloodstained Mire
    2 Verdant Catacombs
    2 Polluted Delta
    2 Marsh Flats
    4 Dark Ritual
    4 Cursed Scroll
    3 Umezawa’s Jitte
    3 Hatred
    4 Sarcomancy
    4 Vampire Lacerator
    4 Stromgald Crusader
    4 Nantuko Shade
    4 Bloodghast
    4 Hypnotic Specter
    4 Phyrexian Obliterator

    In this deck, I like Phyrexian Obliterator a lot. Game one is designed to beat other aggressive decks. I would say most of the field is some type of aggressive deck. If I need to beat a combo deck well, I side in 14 or 15 cards. 4 Duress, 4 Hymn, 2 Sadistic Sacrament at the minimum. Sacrament is also great vs any deck using Emrakul as a kill card. You just take them from the deck. The Hecatomb is for decks that shut down creatures decks with Moat and Humility. You just sacrifice your creatures to the Hecatomb and kill them with your lands.

    By the way, Cursed Scroll is a good way for our decks to deal with Planeswalkers. Since the deck does not really run removal. Obliterator replaces removal in the deck. Eventually they will have to block it.

    Between your Jitte, Obliterator and other creature rush, they should have a fairly empty hand so you can cast Hatred. Often I would just leave Obliterator to block. No one wants to have Tarm blocked by Obliterator and I would swing with the flyers in the deck. Crusader is really good for the fact it is a Zombie for Sarcomancy, it’s a pump knight that flies so you are often doing 3 or 4 damage with him and it has Protection from White which is some good.
    Last edited by necrowil; 05-15-2011 at 03:50 AM.

  6. #1826
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    Re: [Deck] Suicide Black

    I have this very straightforward suicide deck that has been performing fairly well lately. Bitterblossom and Bad Moon have been applying so much pressure resolved that most decks cannot handle them.


    Creatures (20)
    4 Carnophage
    4 Nantuko Shade
    4 Dark Confidant
    4 Gatekeeper of Malakir
    4 Tidehollow Sculler

    Spells (8)
    4 Dark Ritual
    4 Vindicate

    Enchantments (12)
    4 Sarcomancy
    4 Bitterblossom
    4 Bad Moon

    Lands (20)
    4 Wasteland
    4 Scrubland
    4 Marsh Flats
    4 Verdant Catacombs
    4 Swamp

    Sideboard (15)
    3 Umezawa's Jitte
    4 Phyrexian Revoker
    4 Ethersworn Canonist
    4 Withered Wretch
    Do you know what assuming does? It makes an ass out of you and me.
    Get it...? Ass, u, me?

    ... ffs I was trying to be funny...

  7. #1827
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    boneclub24's Avatar
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    Re: [Deck] Suicide Black

    Quote Originally Posted by Qweerios View Post
    I have this very straightforward suicide deck that has been performing fairly well lately. Bitterblossom and Bad Moon have been applying so much pressure resolved that most decks cannot handle them.


    Creatures (20)
    4 Carnophage
    4 Nantuko Shade
    4 Dark Confidant
    4 Gatekeeper of Malakir
    4 Tidehollow Sculler

    Spells (8)
    4 Dark Ritual
    4 Vindicate

    Enchantments (12)
    4 Sarcomancy
    4 Bitterblossom
    4 Bad Moon

    Lands (20)
    4 Wasteland
    4 Scrubland
    4 Marsh Flats
    4 Verdant Catacombs
    4 Swamp

    Sideboard (15)
    3 Umezawa's Jitte
    4 Phyrexian Revoker
    4 Ethersworn Canonist
    4 Withered Wretch
    IDK, I'm glad you are doing well, but if you are splashing white, it feels like you are just running an inferior Deadguy Ale.
    "If you're playing Storm in Legacy, you need to believe that what your deck does is better than what their deck does."

  8. #1828

    Hatred progress

    Extirpate has become an amazing card for Hatred as you are able to cast it at the end of their turn and then Hatred on your turn or simply before you go off. In all likelihood you are choosing Force of Will in their graveyard. The fact they can’t counter it is cool. Also, Obliterator is neither here not there really. Against some decks its amazing, but other decks not so much. The BBBB often has you waiting which is not good. Apart from that, Reckless Spite seems to be good removal. The key is to play as soon as you can to minimize life loss. Late game, well it sucks. But against creature decks its cool like Affinity when you need to kill more then one dude. The Spinning Darkness mitigates the life loss.

    Hatred

    Sideboard
    4 Phyrexian Obliterator
    4 Dread of Night
    4 Extirpate
    3 Perish

    Main
    8 Swamp
    2 Verdant Catacombs
    2 Bloodstained Mire
    2 Polluted Delta
    2 Marsh Flats
    4 Wasteland
    4 Dark Ritual
    4 Cursed Scroll
    3 Hatred
    2 Umezawa’s Jitte
    1 Spinning Darkness
    1 Kaervek’s Spite
    1 Reckless Spite
    4 Sarcomancy
    4 Vampire Lacerator
    4 Stromgald Crusader
    4 Nantuko Shade
    4 Bloodghast
    4 Hypnotic Specter

    So yeah, there is a plague of Jace decks out there and you just side like the following.

    -2 Reckless Spite
    -2 Umezawa’s Jitte
    +4 Extirpate

    You leaving Spinning Darkness in to target any Mishra’s Factories. You also don’t use your Dark Ritual early if you have Hatred in hand. You cast Extirpate on some random card preferably Force of Will then kill them with Hatred.

    Regarding the Black/White deck yeah, you might ask in the Deadguy Ale thread. Putting white in a black deck just seems somehow wrong. :)

    Necrowil

    “I have seen the true path. I will not warm myself by the fire—I will become the flame.”
    —Lim-Dûl, the Necromancer

  9. #1829

    Re: Hatred progress

    A quick question: Is it peat bog a bad card that no one ever uses it?

    Here's the deck I'm currently building:

    Lands (20):

    13 Swamp
    4 Peat Bog
    3 Wastelands

    Creatures (20):

    4 Hypnotic Specter
    4 Phyrexian Negator
    4 Sarcomancy
    4 Vampire Lacerator
    4 Nantuko Shade

    Instants and Sorceries (16):

    4 Hymn To Tourach
    4 Thoughtseize
    4 Snuff Out
    4 Dark Ritual

    Enchantments (4):

    4 Bad Moon

    Sideboard (15):

    4 Planar Void
    4 Pithing Needle
    4 Faerie Macabre
    3 Engineered Plague


    Any suggestions?
    Also, Nantuko Shade feels like a sub-standard card for my deck. My other prospects for its slot are Bloodghast, Stromgald Crusader, or Flesh Reaver. Which of these should I choose? Or should I cut down on some others spells to include more creatures?

  10. #1830

    Re: Hatred progress

    Quote Originally Posted by jmenz View Post
    A quick question: Is it peat bog a bad card that no one ever uses it?

    Yes. Peat bog is in fact a horrible card that nobody uses.

  11. #1831

    Re: Hatred progress

    Quote Originally Posted by Iare View Post
    Yes. Peat bog is in fact a horrible card that nobody uses.
    ah your right i didnt notice that it comes into play tapped. Sorry. Anyway, should I use bloodghast for my list?

  12. #1832

    Re: Hatred progress

    I've started with the Gate but wound up with what could be considered a Sui Black deck, one that I'm very happy with performance wise...

    21 Swamp
    4 Dark Ritual

    2 Inquisition of Kozilek
    2 Duress
    2 Cabal Therapy
    3(2) Rite of Consumption
    4 Hymn to Tourach
    4 Go for the Throat

    4 Dark Confidant
    4 Gatekeeper of Malakir
    3(4) Nyxathid
    3 Abyssal Persecutor
    4 Phyrexian Obliterator

    It's still experimental, but the cards work very well together. Culling the Weak, as janky as it sounds, combos really well with Persectuor, Obliterator, and Nyxathid to end the game. So it has 10 very powerful maindeck cards that it combos very well with. The Persecutor likewise works fine as the deck has 13 ways to get rid of it and only runs 3 copies. It also combos with Confidant to gain you life and buy you time all while at the minimum, shocking your opponent.

  13. #1833
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    Re: [Deck] Suicide Black

    Hi I'm new here, and i big fan of Legacy MBC/Suicide Black. I'll be posting my deck and feel free to share your comments and suggestions. Thanks

    Lands: 21

    14 swamps
    2 Urborg tomb of yawgmowth
    4 wasteland
    1 volrath's stronghold

    Creatures: 15

    4Dark Confidant
    4Vampire Nighthawk
    4Phyrexian Obliterator
    3Gate Keeper of Malakir

    Instant/Sorceries: 19

    4Darkritual
    4hymntotorach
    4thoughtsieze
    3Inquisition of Kozileck
    4Go for the throat

    Arifacts: 5

    3Senie divining top
    2Umezawa's Jitte

    Thx

  14. #1834

    Re: [Deck] Suicide Black

    I've never really cared for calling this deck 'Suicide Black' for a couple of reasons. One is that the loss of life isn't really a predominant feature in the deck (especially when cards with life gain are factored in). And two is that there's so many different ways to build this deck. To me this is Mono black aggro/control.

    I've never played the deck myself, but I have been working on a deck list as a little side project I may want to toy around with.

    Also, why are people running Phyrexian Negators over Obliterators?

  15. #1835
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    Re: [Deck] Suicide Black

    Quote Originally Posted by The Big Ragu View Post
    I've never really cared for calling this deck 'Suicide Black' for a couple of reasons. One is that the loss of life isn't really a predominant feature in the deck (especially when cards with life gain are factored in). And two is that there's so many different ways to build this deck. To me this is Mono black aggro/control.

    I've never played the deck myself, but I have been working on a deck list as a little side project I may want to toy around with.

    Also, why are people running Phyrexian Negators over Obliterators?
    We call it Sui-black because in the olden days you would run Carnophage, Phyrexian Negator, Flesh Reaver and other such cards which would have high risks-high rewards attached to them. Obviously with the emergence of 'Goyf/KotR and other such beasties the deck has evolved into aggro control. Rock used to be identified particularly by Spiritmonger and combo-hosing stuff such as MD Therapy and Recurring Nightmare+Eternal Witness/+Cranial Extraction. Obviously the deck has evolved far beyond this but the game plan is very similar to new Rock and the BGW colors are still in tact so we still refer to it as "Rock." Similarly, even though Sui-Black is no longer "suicidal," we accept MBA/Control as the natural evolution of the deck.

    As for Phyrexian Negator>Phyrexian Obliterator I assume the choice is preference for what was once the MVP of the deck as well as the possibility for a T1 Negator. Obviously with the emergence of Obliterator we have a better option and I would rather be delayed 1 turn in casting Obliterator than be set back 3-5 turns sacing permanants to Negator. I would advise people looking to retain the Negator in their deck (because of preference not because of efficiency) to look at Phyrexian Totem.

    Forlorn Egoist
    How to play Belcher:
    Step 1) Draw 7 cards.
    Step 2) Throw said 7 cards onto the table while making a "BLAH!" sound.
    Step 3) Hold up hands quizically and ask: "Do I win?"

    Decks
    Enchantress
    Dragon Stompy
    Rock
    UG Madness/Thresh (Pauper)

  16. #1836

    Re: [Deck] Suicide Black

    Is The Rack any good in this deck?

  17. #1837
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    ForlornEgoist's Avatar
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    Re: [Deck] Suicide Black

    It can be depending on your willingness to build around Rack. Its not really a card that you can just throw in randomly. To optimize "Rack," effects you'd also want to consider doing a red splash for Storm World. I'll send you a decklist as I don't want to waste thread space on a list that ultimately strays away from MBA/C and won't be recieving any mainstream attention at tourneys.

    Forlorn Egoist
    How to play Belcher:
    Step 1) Draw 7 cards.
    Step 2) Throw said 7 cards onto the table while making a "BLAH!" sound.
    Step 3) Hold up hands quizically and ask: "Do I win?"

    Decks
    Enchantress
    Dragon Stompy
    Rock
    UG Madness/Thresh (Pauper)

  18. #1838
    too poor to play legacy.
    sillyandrew's Avatar
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    Re: [Deck] Suicide Black

    so i've been working on a (still-hypothetical) suicide black/mono black control list for quite a while now, and i have a few questions. i've been stalking the suicide black/the gate/pox threads here on the source for a while now, dragging ideas from all of them, and think the list i'm starting to settle on is definitely more MBC than anything else, but i still figured this is the place to ask my questions.

    1. i can't really decide on the creature base. that's honestly the part of the deck i've had the most trouble with. i've been really attracted to creatures like nantuko shade and hypnotic specter, (ie: creatures that can come down after a swamp -> dark ritual and be a pretty big threat) but i'm wondering how good those creatures actually are, especially in an opening hand that doesn't pack and dark ritual. i'm not a very big black player, but it seems to me like no one really runs these creatures anymore. are nighthawk and gatekeeper their replacements?

    2. i've always been a really big fan of grinning demon, even if he is just a worse juzam djinn. has anyone done any playtesting with either of those creatures? the reason i like grinning demon so much (other than the fact that he's an over budgeted beater) is that fact that he has morph. i'm not sure what that could possibly mean, but i'm sure there has to be a way to abuse that ability, (other than the hella-mediocre/bad swamp -> dark ritual -> morphed grinning demon). i suppose a facedown play mid-game into a swing and flip could result in delaying the two damage drawback is probably the whole reason he can morph in the first place. i'm ranting now. has anyone tried grinning demon or juzam djinn?

    3. all of the mono-black threads here on the source seem to have really weak sideboards. i know there have been dozens of pages of threads discussing them, but i simply want to know which sideboards specifically have been producing the best results. engineered plague and leyline of the void seem like auto-includes to me, but other than that, i'm pretty lost.

    --------

    for reference, he's my (probably sub-par) list:

    4 hypnotic specter
    4 nantuko shade
    4 grinning demon

    4 duress
    4 hymn to tourach

    4 snuff out
    4 innocent blood

    4 flex spot (bottomless pit/phyrexian arena/something else)

    4 lotus petal
    4 dark ritual

    3 peat bog
    4 wasteland
    13 swamp

    --------

    the duress slot could easily be any other discard spell. initially, i think duress does the best all around job of stopping/slowing down combo (without the loss of life from thoughtseize) so it's earned the spot for now. the four lotus petal could easily become two more lands and two of something else, but i simply don't know what, and i really like the idea of explosive early games. i've started with snuff out and innocent blood because they're simply the fastest creature kill around, but i could easily drop innocent blood for go for the throat, or geth's verdict, or something like that. i'm unsure of how much of innocent blood will actually end up hindering my own aggro plan.

    the flex spots could be more discard? more creature kill? some more acceleration in phyrexian arena. i really don't like bob in a list like this, i feel like it only helps the opponents clock, but running bob might make innocent blood better. i'm leaning towards phyrexian arena, convince me against it.

  19. #1839
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    Gui's Avatar
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    Re: [Deck] Suicide Black

    So, in my monoblack homebrew, which I don't know if is suicide or not (but I'm guessing not, I don't run Rituals), I run 4 Nantuko Shade and 3 Arrogant Bloodlord.

    More often than not, Arrogant is the one that wins me the game, and I am comming to believe it's better than Nantuko...

    Anyone else got any tests with it?
    If you fail to explain the reason behind your choice, technically, it's the wrong choice.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tacosnape View Post
    It's one of the ten strongest cards in Legacy. And in truth, in any deck you design, you really need to have a good reason -not- to run Wasteland.
    Zerk Thread -- Really, fun deck! ^^

  20. #1840
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    Re: [Deck] Suicide Black

    @ Gui:

    Arrogant Bloodlord to me runs into the problem of not being able to deal with creature such as 'Goyf (although this can be remedied by equipment/higher-than-average count of removal). While I've long since given up Shade as a viable creature because hes so mana hungry Shade at the very least can compete with 'Goyf when needed.

    Quote Originally Posted by sillyandrew View Post
    Decklist
    Grinning Demon isn't a horrible creature necessarily but you need to look at with whom he's competing for the "big beater," slot: Tombstalker and Abyssal Persecutor. Both 'Stalker/Persecutor offer evasion which is extremely relevant not to mention they don't continously stack life loss (which if you make some of my suggested changes will become more relevant). If you like Demon as a preference I can make further suggestions but I would say if your lenient pick 1 of the other 2.

    Thoughtseize/Inquisition of Kozilek>Duress. I prefer TS as it can disrupt any threat for a meager 2 life investment but in a more aggro creature-based meta (Zoo/Merfolk) 2 life can't be a lot so IoK can be a suitable replacement. Duress can't hit creatures which can be detrimental. Albeit the average MBA/C runs 8-10 kill spells but its important to capitalize your ability to deal with not only creatures but other threats.

    Hypnotic Specter used to be one of our most feared plays (the first being Rit->Duress+Hymn) but he's lost much favor since his time. In the olden days we could afford to ride a win off the back of Shade/Specter/Negator but since that time new creatures ('Goyf/KotR/etc.) have entered thus making our previous win-cons invalid. Specter provides no clock and himself is unable to deal with superior creatures. Vampire Nighthawk recovers life loss and doubles as a kill spell. If you wish to run Specter he certainly works nicely in The Rack builds but otherwise I would suggest removing him.

    Gatekeeper of Malakir seems like he should be an auto 4-of.

    Lotus Petal is unecessary. This deck isn't aggro, its control. We're similar to Rock in that we want to take the game to mid-game (although we don't have quite so many color fixing issues). As such Petal becomes a dead draw.

    Dark Ritual can make for some amazing early game plays but it may be something you consider dropping as the marginal utility on this card declines as the game progresses. If you're adamant about keeping it theres nothing wrong with such but I prefer to avoid bad topdecks when I'm playing Control with this deck.

    Peat Bog should be removed. Period. You slow yourself down a turn to achieve a whole extra mana of acceleration. I would actually prefer you run Cabal Coffers because then you at least get consistent mana production that can open you up into the 6-mana slot providing old-school creatures like my personal favorite Laquatus's Champion).

    Sensei's Divining Top should be added as a 3-4 of. Although Dark Confidant can be run in addition to Tombstalker, few people are as gosu as me and willing to run them together. With Persecutor its less of a hassel but since you're opting not to run Bob the SDT is necessary to maximize draws esp. since you're playing control and running Rits. Phyrexian Arena is an option but since you're Mono-Black I'm worried about not being able to Vindicate it.

    Here are my suggested changes:

    4 Bloodstained Mire
    2 Marsh Flats
    2 Verdant Catacombs
    4 Wasteland
    8 Swamp

    4 Gatekeeper of Malakir
    4 Vampire Nighthawk
    3 Phyrexian Obliterator
    3 Tombstalker

    4 Thoughtseize
    4 Dark Ritual
    4 Hymn to Tourach
    4 Smother / Go for the Throat
    4 Snuff Out
    3 Sensei's Divining Top
    3 Umezawa's Jitte
    Note that fetches help maximize Top as well as provide food for 'Stalker.

    Its been ages since I played this deck so I'm not sure what would be best for a SB. I remember that when I was playing the deck I ran Extirpate and Dystopia in addition to Leyline and E.Plague. If you wanted to run Abyssal Persecutor which might be better as it provides you with Bob then I would suggested checking The Gate thread.

    Forlorn Egoist
    How to play Belcher:
    Step 1) Draw 7 cards.
    Step 2) Throw said 7 cards onto the table while making a "BLAH!" sound.
    Step 3) Hold up hands quizically and ask: "Do I win?"

    Decks
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