A quick deck I made last night
4 Carnophage
4 Carrion Rats
4 Diregraf Ghoul
4 Gravecrawler
4 Bloodghast
4 Vampire Lacerator
4 Sewer Rats
2 Unholy Strength
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Raven’s Crime
4 Dark Ritual
4 Funeral Charm
18 swamp
I actually think Carrion Feeder would be an solid addition to your list, Hardcore. I would consider your list to have the full suite of support in playsets of Gravecrawler & Bloodghast. Geralf's Messenger is a good match at well, but looks like it would be too high on the curve.
I notice a lack of fetchlands, which compliment Bloodghast and deck-thinning. Do you feel you're at a threshold of life loss already?
"The best weapon against an enemy is another enemy."
-Friedrich Nietzsche
no, i just saw no need for them.
honestly, if you are going to play a deck that fast, you might want to look at hatred. I know many people here are not fans. suicide is limited by the fact it takes a certain amount of turns to win. hatred decks usually don’t go beyond 5 turns. if they do, they will probably lose. this is what i am currently running now. i’m pretty happy with it.
I took out 3cc cards from the deck as they slow it down way too much. also you make want to run 1 soul spike as a finisher. if you get them to 4 life you can throw your cards at them.
also i know that sarcomancy is a much better card the carrion rats. its pretty easy for them to ensure they do no damage.
also, predator’s gambit does the same thing unholy strength does, but more. no reason to play strength over gambit now. unless you want to play both. those are my thoughts.
you may want to play some 2cc creatures also. chalice for 1 will wreck your deck.
you also may want to consider bitterblossom.
this is my current hatred deck list. once i have some tournament results. i'll post them here.
hatred
sideboard
4 cursed scroll
4 massacre
3 perish
2 forsaken wastes
2 umezawa's jitte
main
13 swamp
4 crystal vein
1 phyrexian tower
4 dark ritual
4 predator's gambit
4 hatred
1 spinning darkness
1 soul spike
4 sarcomancy
4 diregraf ghoul
4 blood pet
4 mesmeric fiend
4 dauthi horror
4 dauthi slayer
4 skittering skirge
you may be wondering why i don’t have graveyard hate in the deck. haven’t found I need it and it deludes the decks speed to much. would rather race them.
in general i think suicide and gate are just too slow for the current environment where delver/tarmogoyf are defining cards of the format. this leaves all out speed suicide as the main viable alternative.
peace.
necrowil
I have seen the true path. I will not warm myself by the fire—I will become the flame.”
—Lim-Dûl, the Necromancer
Suicide Hatred
So Suicide is back but not in the way we have been discussing it here. I guess technically speaking this would be called Suicide Brown vs Suicide Black because of the artifacts in the deck, but really the artifacts only exist here primarily to speed the deck up and make it more deadly. And it is very fast with them in here. I threw Hatred in as well but often the deck will kill long before you get to 5 mana. Basically its in here primarily to ensure the game ends and you definitely want the game to end with this deck. As we know the longer the game goes on with Suicide, the weaker our deck becomes so this deck excels at having an aggressive start.
In most situations you can get the opponent down to ten life or less. If that happens, casting Hatred for ten is easy. It really doesn’t hurt even if they have an answer which they probably won’t. For the simple reason in all likelihood they will have used any removal they have or Counters they have to get rid of your 5/5 killers.
I have also listed this build under new and developmental decks. Now before anyone jumps up and down saying there is White in here. It is important to note this is simply because of all the artifacts in the deck that you want to speed up the deck. The White in here is for the most part inconsequential.
Suicide Hatred
Sideboard
4 Darksteel Citadel (Pernicious Deed is an issue, that is why these are here)
4 Cursed Scroll (way to win if they stop your creatures)
4 Massacre (we hate Maverick and this is the answer)
3 Perish (see above)
Main
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Vault of Whispers
4 Ancient Den
4 Glimmervoid
4 Chrome Mox
4 Mox Opal
4 Dark Ritual
4 Tidehollow Sculler
4 Porcelain Legionnaire
4 Hypnotic Specter
4 Phyrexian Negator
4 Geralf’s Messenger
4 Phylactery Lich
4 Phyrexian Obliterator
4 Hatred
It is possible I may move the Citadels main deck, but they are really not needed unless you play vs Deed. And there is not that much Deed in the format right now but it does exist. If that happens I may add Ethersworn Canonist to the board to help deal with combo decks.
Again the artifacts are to speed the deck up and it is highly effective at doing that allowing you to easily play around Daze and Spell Pierce. The deck also doesn’t care about Chalice and most decks running it will not be casting Chalice for 3.
Phyrexian Negator is nice in the deck as well with so many Legendary lands and artifacts it is easy to sacrifice a few, not to mention Geralf’s Messenger. Messenger is primarily in here for Liliana of the Veil.
This deck often gets Hypnotic Specter and/or Tidehollow Sculler out on the first turn. The Moxes make it kind of ridiculous in combination with Dark Ritual.
Check it out. Its a beating.
Peace.
Necrowil
I have seen the true path. I will not warm myself by the fire—I will become the flame.” —Lim-Dûl, the Necromancer
The artifacts seem primarily to be there for the Lich. Since you already run Dark Ritual, you can also run Grim Monolith (another artifact) and power up to Grave Titan and Kokusho, the Evening Star (Lifegain is always good for Hatred). And then Cavern of Souls sounds reasonable, too. But why don't you have any protection like 1cc discard (maybe even Cabal Therapy)? They enable tempo plays. And last but not least, if you have Kokusho, you could also go the next step and add Recurring Nightmare, and turn the deck completly into a pile of bombs.
part of the issue with discard spells now is the fact that there are so many anti-discard spells like spell pierce and the like. the other issue is by playing a creature like sculler he's a potential hatred target. often i can play sculler turn 1 and ritual hatred turn 2. who cares about kokoshu then or recurring nightmare? and that's what suicide is about, reducing the life total to 0 as fast as possible. this deck does that. the artifacts enable you to play threats faster. made some changes after some further testing.
Sideboard
4 Ethersworn Canonist
4 Cursed Scroll
4 Massacre
2 Perish
1 Umezawa's Jitte
Main
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Vault of Whispers
4 Darksteel Citadel
4 Ancient Den
4 Glimmervoid
4 Chrome Mox
4 Mox Opal
4 Dark Ritual
4 Tidehollow Sculler
4 Porcelain Legionnaire
4 Hypnotic Specter
4 Geralf’s Messenger
4 Phylactery Lich
4 Phyrexian Obliterator
3 Hatred
1 Umezawa's Jitte
Why wouldn't you run vault skirge instead of legionaire? evasion is great with hatred, plus you get all the life back if you can't alpha strike. not to mention it's great with jitte and you might actually be able to cast it without paying life.
I've called my deck Azalin. It feels pretty strong as it is, but suggestions are always welcome.
I don't have a sideboard yet, need some help here.
3 Marsh Flats
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scrubland
3 Swamp
4 Vault of Whispers
4 Chrome Mox
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Cursed Scroll
4 Diregraf Ghoul
4 Gravecrawler
2 Sarcomancy
4 Dark Confidant
4 Gatekeeper of Malakir
4 Tidehollow Sculler
3 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Liliana of the Veil
4 Phylactery Lich
I'm considering 2-4 Carrion Feeders in place of Diregraf Ghouls and/or Sarcomancys. What do you think?
Last edited by eirirlar; 09-18-2012 at 09:25 AM.
The new little creature from RtR could be useful...
Rakdos Cackler, 2/2 and 1-drop Red or Black.
It's not a zombie, but thats the only minus I can see......
Perhaps you should post the list on the Deadguy thread as this deck fits more the nitch of BW midrange control than it does MBA. I had actually built up a brand new BW involving Gravecrawler. Assuming you want white in this build I will message you or respond on the Deadguy thread since I don't wish to derail the MBA Suicide discussion.
If I were to remove the White from this list, here is what I would suggest:
Add Top: You're running a rather high curve with 7 3cc and 15 2cc. Considering you're assuming the role of control, have no way to tutor up Jitte (you're only life gain), and really have very little interaction with the opponent you'll need to be able to fix your draws. Since there's still a great deal of S&T/Maverick/Delver its insanely relevant to draw the cards you require as well as mitigate as much unnecessary life loss as you can. If you don't want Top, then reduce your fetches to around 4-5.
Cursed Scroll and Sarcomancy: Both were legitimate cards for Suicide back before 'Goyf. I recall fondly the days of using these cards. That having been said, they've no place in your build. Scrolls activations are too much of an investment for what they offer. Your mana each turn should either be spent on a threat or reserved to cast a reactive spell (removal) or ability (Top). Investing 3 mana for the CHANCE that you might randomly deal 2 damage is not a justifiable cost. As for Sarcomancy, there is little if any point in running this card. Every creature in the format can answer a 2/2 token, and once said token dies you're at risk of taking Upkeep damage which we ultimately can't negate beyond throwing a Zombie onto the field (considering black really has no Enchantment removal). Remove both of these cards.
Assuming we wish to keep this mono-black, here is how I might compose this list:
3 Marsh Flats
4 Polluted Delta
4 Vault of Whispers
4 Mutavault
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3 Swamp
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Go for the Throat
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Gravecrawler
4 Dark Confidant
3 Phylactery Lich
3 Bitterblossom
4 Gatekeeper of Malakir
3 Liliana of the Veil
3 Chrome Mox
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Umezawa's Jitte
Note that this list is a VERY rough list. Its based on the B/W list I built so I had to compromise a lot of the original list, especially since I'm assuming you want to keep the Lich in the deck.
With this list you have added control elements (IoK/GftT) as well as guranteed aggro (Bitterblossom). The Tops help not only to fix draws but will give you a better chance of digging into the deck for your removal or Jittes.
I added Mutavault because not only is it an extra piece of aggro, it has great synergy with Gravecrawler meaning you can afford to run less Zombies.
I also reduced the Mox count to 3. I assume the game plan was to accelerate out Lich asap however considering the Tier 1 decks atm your biggest concerns for removal are either by StP/PtE, Terminus, and counters, all of which are answers to Indestructible. Mox is a card that works out great when its in your opening 7 but beyond that its a terrible topdeck. Top helps to mitigate bad draws but you still don't want to see a Mox lategame. 3 is sufficient for your needs.
I, myself, prefer to go balls to the walls and opt just to run Thoughtseize over other discard but many people are hesitant to run it, especially with Bob, Bitterblossom, Fetches, as well as against opposing burn. IoK should be suitable for your needs.
Well, I hope these suggestions were in some way helpful.
Forlorn Egoist
I'm just gonna drop this little bundle of fun here for giggles:
4x Gravecrawler
4x Carnophage
4x Vampire Lacerator
4x Rakdos Cackler
4x Sacromancy
4x Bloodghast
4x Nantuko Shade
4x Dark Ritual
4x Bad Moon
4x Smother
2x Snuff Out
18x Swamp
This is a little update of a list I posted here earlier.
I'm just gonna drop this little bundle of fun here for giggles:
4x Gravecrawler
4x Carnophage
4x Vampire Lacerator
4x Rakdos Cackler
4x Sarcomancy
4x Bloodghast
4x Nantuko Shade
4x Dark Ritual
4x Bad Moon
4x Smother
2x Snuff Out
18x Swamp
This is a little update of a list I posted here earlier.
Diabolic Edict seems better than Smother. Jitte is the tips here too.
Lastly, what do you have against Bob?
You will need something to deal with first turn Chalice for 1. Personally I would not recommend more then 12 1cc creatures. Then the rest should be 2 and higher. This is what I am currently running.
Hatred
Sideboard
4 Cursed Scroll
2 Umezawa’s Jitte
2 Faerie Macabre
2 Bojuka Bog
2 Extirpate
2 Perish
1 Spinning Darkness
Main
10 Swamp
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Peat Bog
2 Phyrexian Tower
4 Dark Ritual
4 Diabolic Intent
4 Hatred
4 Diregraf Ghoul
4 Gravecrawler
4 Dauthi Horror
4 Dauthi Slayer
4 Geralf’s Messenger
4 Hypnotic Specter
4 Phyrexian Obliterator
Peat Bog is a fairly good mana accelerant with Urborg in play. Also, if you are going to run Phylactery Lich about half of your deck needs to be artifacts or you will run into problems.
Peace.
Necrowil
I have seen the true path. I will not warm myself by the fire—I will become the flame.” —Lim-Dûl, the Necromancer
I've been adjusting my mono black aggro deck after playtesting and this is how far i've got
4 Snuff Out
3 Diregraf Ghoul
4 Dark ritual
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Sinkhole ( would change for dark confident if i had them )
4 Stromgald Cabal ( Pro from white pumpable flyers for carrying jitte )
4 Nantuko Shade ( can trade with goyf! )
3 Crypt Rats ( need to test this more )
4 Hypnotic Specter
2 Umez Jitte ( still considering a 3rd )
4 Wasteland
16 Swamp
Sideboard
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Grafdiggers Cage
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Perish
3 Dystopia
2 Nevs Disk
I don't own any dark confidents and am considering getting 4 Phyrexian Arenas for card draw.
Also without putting 4 Chalice of the Void and 3 Mindbreak Traps into the sideboard I struggle against Storm Combo, even with discard as disruption.
Dystopias are excellent, Disks a bit slow but hit most problems, and perish is strong. I wanted to put in Liliana just for the artwork but she didn't quite make the cut.
Comments?
Your Meta decide how your deck will look like. IN EVERY DETAIL. Mono black is unique in that way.
Describe it for us so we can give good advice.
Just curious here guys.
I've been playing around with a R/B list for a little while, running many of the same creature cards listed previously in Suicide Black.
But I'm also running a few Goblin Guide, Vexing Devil, Funeral Charm, Cabal Therapy & about 6 Burn spells to (possibly) clear the way for my creatures, 3 Jitte.
Fury Charm in the side for artifact killing with a pump (possibly).
2 Browbeat, 2 Bloodchief Ascension & a single Raven's Crime in there for flexibility.
Have any of you tried R/B with any success?
And do you think my list is any good?
TV Aggro is one of the oldest archetypes in magic. Should be plenty of old lists to browse for inspiration.
Keep your spells cheap to cast, add soon card drawing and you should be fine.
All those lists posted above are just terrible and barely playable. It seems that people don't understand what suicide decks actually want to achieve. It's about disrupting your opponents in the first 3-4 turns by discard and landdestruction and then dropping a big creature to finish the job. Appearently most people aren't aware of this and therefore post lists like those mentioned. The actual problem of suicide is that it's black (therefore no library manipulation) and that it lacks a sufficient amount of efficient beaters.
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