[Deck] Iggy Pop

[Benie Bederios]

So what you're all( well maybe not all) saying that going with another strategie is better than the Pithing Needle plan. I mean What if a non-counterdeck( say Mono red Goblins) boards in Tormod's Crypt most of you're SB is unplayable( No confidant, no grid) and you only have three answers if they put down a Crypt( Echoing Truth) wich can countered with their REB. But when you were playing a SB like this one:

4 Pithing Needle
4 Defense Grid
3 Echoing Truth
4 Engineered Plague

you could play Needle on Crypt and still combo off using you're graveyard. That said I'm even considering to remove Plague from the side for Confidant or Duress. I think it's enough to board in Echoing Truth and Pithing Needle against goblins and that way I got still the Confidant to bring in against UWg *****.

About Fearie Stompy, although it's a hard matchup it's certainly winnable. This deck can win through a Chalice, can be faster, or bounce it. I would say its 60/40 for Stompy. Boarding in Winter Orb isn't a great plan, because Iggy Pop can win on one land.

[AnwarA101]

So what you're all( well maybe not all) saying that going with another strategie is better than the Pithing Needle plan. I mean What if a non-counterdeck( say Mono red Goblins) boards in Tormod's Crypt most of you're SB is unplayable( No confidant, no grid) and you only have three answers if they put down a Crypt( Echoing Truth) wich can countered with their REB. But when you were playing a SB like this one:

4 Pithing Needle
4 Defense Grid
3 Echoing Truth
4 Engineered Plague

you could play Needle on Crypt and still combo off using you're graveyard. That said I'm even considering to remove Plague from the side for Confidant or Duress. I think it's enough to board in Echoing Truth and Pithing Needle against goblins and that way I got still the Confidant to bring in against UWg *****.

About Fearie Stompy, although it's a hard matchup it's certainly winnable. This deck can win through a Chalice, can be faster, or bounce it. I would say its 60/40 for Stompy. Boarding in Winter Orb isn't a great plan, because Iggy Pop can win on one land.

I've never played Pithing Needle because it seems very narrow. What else do you want to needle other than Crypt? What if your opponent isn't bringing in Crypt? It seems too much like a guessing game for me. Against aggro decks I just bring in Echoing Truth because it can buy me time as well as remove any type of hate. Against goblins just bring in Plague and win.

[TheSorcerer]

Hoi!

Forget that "bring in Plague and" part and reduce it to "Against Goblins just win". They have absolutely no game against you. Dedicating sibeboard slots to that matchup is a waste in my eyes.

Greets

TheSorcerer

[emidln]

Hoi!

Forget that "bring in Plague and" part and reduce it to "Against Goblins just win". They have absolutely no game against you. Dedicating sibeboard slots to that matchup is a waste in my eyes.

Greets

TheSorcerer

You board needles and bring them in against Goblins because they do play Crypt. If they play crypt turn 1 and you don't combo out turn 1 on the play, then you lose barring some insane double tendrils on turn 3 draw.

This deck needs to side needles to beat crypt in the games that it can't go for the Confidant plan (aka Burn, Goblins, and Zoo).

[parallax]

Engineered Plague + Infernal Tutor is a combo.

I don't like boarding in answers to answers in this sort of match-up. Boarding in a 4-of to deal with a 4-of is inherently flawed. Goblins will have Crypt in their opening hand 40% of the time. You will have Needle 40% of the time. Needles will only help you in 16% of your sideboard games. Echoing Truth seems just as good at getting around Crypt but it can also buy you a turn against a non-Crypt Goblin draw. Not all Goblin decks necessarily even board Crypt. Besides, a semi-lethal Tendrils can buy you a turn or two to find a second Tendrils, allowing you to play around Crypt.

[emidln]

Engineered Plague + Infernal Tutor is a combo.

I don't like boarding in answers to answers in this sort of match-up. Boarding in a 4-of to deal with a 4-of is inherently flawed. Goblins will have Crypt in their opening hand 40% of the time. You will have Needle 40% of the time. Needles will only help you in 16% of your sideboard games. Echoing Truth seems just as good at getting around Crypt but it can also buy you a turn against a non-Crypt Goblin draw. Not all Goblin decks necessarily even board Crypt. Besides, a semi-lethal Tendrils can buy you a turn or two to find a second Tendrils, allowing you to play around Crypt.

The thing is, your 4-of answer trades 1 for 4 with theirs. How do you figure it would only come in around 16% of your sideboard games? I'd board it anytime the opposing deck can't board out enough creature hate. The only decks that the Confidant/Swarm/Defense Grid plan is good against are Control decks. (Your plan with Iggy Pop is to make Threshold a control deck (with terrible options) whether it wants to be control or not.) Control decks include Threshold, Tog, Landstill, U/x Variants, Stax, and other decks whose kill condition is way too slow for you to care about anything other than a double-tendrils while playing around Chalices/countermagic.

Also, you can get a needle 45% of the time by your first draw. This balances by the fact that your opponent will only have Crypt 40% of the time by this point. You then have 4-5 ways to find a Needle if you need it on top of that.

A semi-lethal Tendrils might (probably will) buy you a turn, but probably not two unless the Goblins player is having bad draws. That means you have to refill AND win next turn. How is that a viable solution?

[AnwarA101]

The thing is, your 4-of answer trades 1 for 4 with theirs. How do you figure it would only come in around 16% of your sideboard games? I'd board it anytime the opposing deck can't board out enough creature hate. The only decks that the Confidant/Swarm/Defense Grid plan is good against are Control decks. (Your plan with Iggy Pop is to make Threshold a control deck (with terrible options) whether it wants to be control or not.) Control decks include Threshold, Tog, Landstill, U/x Variants, Stax, and other decks whose kill condition is way too slow for you to care about anything other than a double-tendrils while playing around Chalices/countermagic.

Also, you can get a needle 45% of the time by your first draw. This balances by the fact that your opponent will only have Crypt 40% of the time by this point. You then have 4-5 ways to find a Needle if you need it on top of that.

A semi-lethal Tendrils might (probably will) buy you a turn, but probably not two unless the Goblins player is having bad draws. That means you have to refill AND win next turn. How is that a viable solution?

I believe the 16% comes from the multiplication of .40 (the percentage when they have Crypt) and .40 (when you have Needle). Both of these have to occur for your Needle to matter in the sideboard game.

The logic for trying to board a card your opponent may or may not have seems very risky. Echoing Truth deals with this problem just fine and others that you haven't anticipated. I still think that Engineered Plague should be given consideration for the sideboard. Its so easy to get this down that it hardly matters what Goblin opponent will do and Goblins usually appears in large numbers at major tournaments.

[Benie Bederios]

Well I was suggesting to board Echoing Truth AND Pithing Needle, that will give you 8 answers against hate. Also I found Needle rarely a dead card. Almost anydeck plays Tormod's Crypt as Graveyard hate, baring Homebrew who uses Withered Wretch, so it isn't much guessing. And otherwise you can always go after fetches( against *****, just name the fetch that isn't in your hand) Vial, Jitte( damn irritating if they get to much life) Shade, Survival, etc.

[emidln]

I believe the 16% comes from the multiplication of .40 (the percentage when they have Crypt) and .40 (when you have Needle). Both of these have to occur for your Needle to matter in the sideboard game.

The logic for trying to board a card your opponent may or may not have seems very risky. Echoing Truth deals with this problem just fine and others that you haven't anticipated. I still think that Engineered Plague should be given consideration for the sideboard. Its so easy to get this down that it hardly matters what Goblin opponent will do and Goblins usually appears in large numbers at major tournaments.

A (probably) minor nitpick is that if they are on the play they have a 40% chance of a crypt while you have a 45% (8 chances as opposed to 7) chance of a needle. If you are on the play, you have a 40% chance of an auto-mulligan (playing with just 6 cards) because you fear needle if you are going to continue to combo quickly, but your 6 card mulligan actually has a 100% .chance of being unaffecting by crypt for a turn, making the needle very costly (1 CA). Another possibility is a double Needle which would probably force you to mulligan for real with the potential for, yet again, a "double mulligan" due to a single needle.

[AnwarA101]

A (probably) minor nitpick is that if they are on the play they have a 40% chance of a crypt while you have a 45% (8 chances as opposed to 7) chance of a needle. If you are on the play, you have a 40% chance of an auto-mulligan (playing with just 6 cards) because you fear needle if you are going to continue to combo quickly, but your 6 card mulligan actually has a 100% .chance of being unaffecting by crypt for a turn, making the needle very costly (1 CA). Another possibility is a double Needle which would probably force you to mulligan for real with the potential for, yet again, a "double mulligan" due to a single needle.

I'm sorry, but I'm not following. Doesn't the Iggy Pop player fear Crypt? You will mulligan into Needle? I'm not sure that's correct. But in general I'm a little lost with the statement here. Is it possible to clarify these numbers?

[emidln]

I'm sorry, but I'm not following. Doesn't the Iggy Pop player fear Crypt? You will mulligan into Needle? I'm not sure that's correct. But in general I'm a little lost with the statement here. Is it possible to clarify these numbers?

Okay, sorry. There are two scenarios for game two. The first is that you are on the play. The second is that you are on the draw.

On the Play:

- You start with 7 cards
- Your opponent will not have the chance to play a Tormod's Crypt therefore you don't care.
- If your hand is moderately good, a Pithing Needle will clog up your hand and force itself to be played due to slowing you down a turn or two.
- A double pithing needle in your opening hand is an automatic mulligan. You can keep a six hand opening hand, but 5 with double needle is horrible
- when you Mulligan you have three scenarios (listed from best to worst)
(1) you draw 6 cards not named pithing needle and can set up to go off
(2) you draw 5 cards not named pithing needle and a needle. This is okay since you're going to drop the needle turn 1 and try to go off around turn 3
(3) you draw 4 cards not named pithing needle and are left with an option of dropping to 5 cards or playing with 5 useful cards and an extra pithing needle. if you have a land and some business at this point, I'd probably just accept my losses as mulling to 5 is very dangerous

In any event, the likihood of you drawing at least 1 pithing needle in your initial opening 7 cards is 40%

Scenario 2: on the draw

- You draw 8 cards
- Tormod's Crypt is a potential problem
- your opponent has at least a 40% chance of playing a turn 1 tormod's crypt if they board four copies
- if your opponent gets a crypt you need to do one of two things:
(1) play around it
- this should happen about 55% of the time, although it may not be relevant until turn 2 giving you a better chance to use option 2 (since you don't always play IT or Intuition turn 1)
(2) needle it
- in your initial 8 cards you have a 45% chance of seeing a needle in your initial 8 cards
((3, but not really an option) lose to it)
- if they don't play it and you can go off turn 1, great, otherwise
- you do something and pass the turn
- if it invoves the graveyard, they can still potentially drop a crypt and hurt your threshold/setup
- you can still proactively needle tormod's crypt in preparation for going off on turn 2, 3 or 4

Iggy Pop only fears crypt when crypt has been cast. In that event (crypt is cast), if Iggy Pop is playing with the Confidant plan, they may have boarded out 3-4 IGG, Intuitions, and LEDs (cards good with the graveyard) already and ignore Crypt anyway. The problem is against decks like Zoo, Burn, and Goblins, the Confidant plan is terrible as they can easily destroy your confidants and leave you with a slow tendrils deck. To fix that you can pretty much (a) try your luck without an answer to crypt and randomly lose quite a bit, (b) board needle against crypt, (c) board engineered plague against goblins, ignore crypt and build up a double tendrils hand.

[AnwarA101]

To fix that you can pretty much (a) try your luck without an answer to crypt and randomly lose quite a bit, (b) board needle against crypt, (c) board engineered plague against goblins, ignore crypt and build up a double tendrils hand.

Thanks for explaining your reasoning fully. The only argument I have with your last statement here is that Echoing Truth is a less narrow answer to Tormod's Crypt than Pithing Needle. Why only Pithing Needle? Echoing Truth can bounce other hate cards like Rule of Law or Pyrostatic Pillar while Pithing Needle only does one thing. As long as you don't put any key spells into the yard before you Echoing Truth then its just like a Pithing Needle in the sense they don't get to use it at any point where it matters. It just seems odd to play a card so narrow that actually only affects one card your opponent maybe playing. While Engineered Plague is narrow it at least effectively wins you a game when you play two of them. I doubt the same could be said of Pithing Needle.

[Benie Bederios]

Allright point taken, I dropped the needles from my SB and added Rebuild. This way I've got 1 Echoing Truth MD, 3 in SB and 1 Rebuild( seems to work great against Chalice and Artifactheavy decks( Angelstax, Ravager)) but that leaves me with three open slots. I'm still not sold of Confidant, it's only helping one matchup( UGw *****) and there isn't it an autowin. I tested with the( in my opinion) bad tendrils deck plan( boarding in the Confidants) and I didn't win any game of twenty. It's so tough to beat the free counters and the fast clock they can put down, and Confidant costs me about 5 lifes, before I have to chump block is Werebear, and Meddling Mage staring at me protected by counters and named Tendrils of Agony.

For now I'm going to test this SB.

4 Engineered Plague( beats 1 deck, but beats it hard)
3 Echoing Truth( Multitasker, does what it has to do, and is never dead, Might change it in Rushing River)
4 Xantid Swarm( just trying, It offers a more reliable 2 turn kill, fixes the problems if ***** keeps 3 mana open)
1 Tropical Island( for playing Xantid Swarm)
1 Rebuild( additonal high CC bounce against artifact heavy decks, might change it in Rushin River)
2 Tormod's Crypt( also just trying, slows down ***** his clock and gives them more limited choices to return after IGG, it might be al little overkill with Leyline of th Void)

Also could it be an Idea to play Cunning Wish MD and a wishboard, or is it to slow for this deck.

[TheSorcerer]

Hoi!

I dont believe Cunning Wish is what this deck needs. It doesnt provide any versality you could use in a turn 2or 3 kill.
I strongly recommend to diversify your bounce, so a single Meddling Mage or Chalice cannot shut it off. And also run Rebuild or you will have no good way of removing multiple crytps.

I think one of these should be found in your MD (propably Truth or Chain) and the other 3 in your sideboard.

1x Chain of Vapor
1x Echoing Truth
1x Rebuild
1x Rushing River

I also agree that bounce is far superior as an answer to crypt than Pithing Needle. In the end, Pithing Needle will only do it's job in shutting down crypt in about 20% of the games. Of course, bounce will only do it's job in protecting you against Crypt in also about 20% of the games, however, in about 20% of the other games it will still slow the other player down, wheres Needle would do nothing.

The main purpose for the Confidant plan isn't to beat aggro control. Actually he really isn't very good against aggro control and I would much rather leave him in he sb in favor for bounce & counter protection (Grid or Swarm). He shines however, against decks with heavy disruption (eg Homebrew) or control decks with slow clocks (eg Landstill).

I'd recommend following SB atm:

1x Echoing Truth MD

4x Dark Confidant
1x Rushing River
1x Chain of Vapor
1x Rebuild
4x Defense Grid / Xantid Swarm (I'm not sure on this yet)
4x Engineered Plague

The 4 Plagues could be anything really. Adjust it to your metagame if you like. When you run Swarms you could think about ading Cabal Therapy in that spot.

Greets

TheSorcerer

[bigredmeanie]

If you're running Swarm you don't need Therapy. You run Swarm so you can go off un-molested. In fact once swarm attacks Therapy is dead, and if Swarm doesn't attack it's because they killed it, and Therapy isn't useful for flashback anyway.

[Benie Bederios]

Uhm whos going to play the first mage on Echoing Truth against you.

Echoing Truth/Rushing River/Chain of Vapor will bounce double crypt just easy as Rebuild.

This deck can beat Landstill and Homebrew already with or without Confidant. And I don't see the match change alot. Against Landstill you'll get enough time to win with the double tendrils plan and if you can resolve a Swarm, you can just combo as normal. Homebrew is all about playing Smart. Brainstorm to hide you're keyspell, use you're fetches when you need the land, Normally you will topdeck a Ill-Gotten Gains that will win you the game. And they still have Vindicate to target your Confidant. Also they will board in Phyrexian Negator, which makes you're lifetotal relevant.

What will you board out against Homebrew.

[Finn]

I would have thought that the sided in Withered Wretches would make your life hard versus Deadguy Ale. Don't you have to kill them off before you can combo? Against a deck packing Duress and Hymn, that seems like a dangerous problem to say the least.

[TheSorcerer]

Hoi!

I went 4-1 with an IGG build without Leylines (you can see my build here.

I boarded against Homebrew -4 Impulse +4 Dark Confidant. If you are saying you can win ths matchup via keeping Fetchlands and brainstorming correct, you are lying to yourself. You will not win the matchup this way. Your hand will be torn apart while there's serious preasure in form of Hippies, Shades and maybe even Negators facing you.

Confidant really helps you offset that card disadvanage generated by Hymns and Duresses. If you really face a Negator, I'd rather have a Confidant in play than nothing - he is a nice blocker against Negator after all, forcing youre opponent to sac is maybe only two lands.

You will need to handle Wretches via bounce before trying to combo off, or get them flat footed with not enough mana open to seriously hinder you.

Rushing River will bounce double Crypt for you, that is true, Chain of Vapor and Echoing Truth will not though, please rethink the scenario. While Chain should be clear (you can only copy it while bouncing your own permanents) a at least medicore player will respond to Echoing Truth sacrifcing his targeted Crypt to make your Echoing Truth countering itself on resolution due to lack of a target.

Only bad players will resolve the first mage against Truth, however, most players will resolve their second mage against Truth - GG.

I see the point, which makes Therapy rather useless if you have a Swarm in play. However, it can still be used to get that Swarm into play in the beginning or to slow the clock on you by hitting threats. However, I wouldn't run Therapy in the first place, it was just an option which felt suiteable if you can board in 8 creatures.

Greets

TheSorcerer

[michael_noah]

Echoing Truth/Rushing River/Chain of Vapor will bounce double crypt just easy as Rebuild.

Echoing truth will fizzle when they sac the targetted crypt. Chain of Vapor can't bounce two crypts unless they're idiots. Rushing river works. However, I don't think one needs to be terribly concerned about opponents with the double crypt draw.

[emidln]

I've been advocating Rushing River/Echoing Truth/Rebuild/Massacre as a removal suite for awhile because Chain of Vapor is absolutely terrible against Chalice, and suboptimal against pretty much everything else (because your own Leyline tends to get bounced). I like Rebuild because one of our worst matchups is Angel Stax and it exists in the metas that I have played in.

Repeal might be an option, despite that fact that it's absolutely terrible against Rule of Law/Arcane Lab/Trinisphere in your removal Intuition pile.

I'm actually starting to think that I'd want to try Personal Tutor in the board along with Dark Confiant in the extra 2-3 slots.

If you run a board like this:

4 Dark Confidant
4 Xantid Swarm/Defense Grid
4 Removal (Rushing River/Echoing Truth/Rebuild/Massacre)
3 Personal Tutor

You could speed up the double Tendrils kills that you go for when you board out IGG, Intuition, and LED. Personal Tutor might be total crap, but it seems worth testing.