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Thread: How Humility Works

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    How Humility Works

    I figure there should always be a quick reference thread for Humility-based interactions in case your head is hurting. Plus, it'll give us a chance to discuss the best way to explain it to people.

    But for now, I have a question of my own. How exactly do Humility and Mishra's Factory interact now, and what's the best way to explain this to someone?

    Thanks.

    Quote Originally Posted by majikal View Post
    Damn it, Taco, that exactly sums up my opinion on the matter. I need to buy you a beer for that post.

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    Re: Humility / ________

    when the factory is animated, there will be two different effects trying to set it's ower and toughness, so they will be applied in timestamp order. If humility is in already in play, and you animate your factory, you will have a 2/2 worker, if the factory already is animated, then humility enters play, it will become a 1/1. In both cases, it won't have any abilities, and when the turn ends, it will become an unanimated mishra again, so activating it will turn it into a 2/2, since it's a new effect setting its p/t

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    Re: Humility / ________

    418.5a The values of an object’s characteristics are determined by starting with the actual object, then applying continuous effects in a series of layers in the following order: (1) copy effects (see rule 503, “Copying Objects”); (2) control-changing effects; (3) text-changing effects; (4) type-, subtype-, and supertype-changing effects; (5) all other continuous effects, except those that change power and/or toughness; and (6) power- and/or toughness-changing effects.

    Inside each layer from 1 through 5, apply effects from characteristic-setting abilities first, then all other effects. Inside layer 6, apply effects in a series of sublayers in the following order: (6a) effects from characteristic-setting abilities; (6b) all other effects not specifically applied in 6c, 6d, or 6e; (6c) changes from counters; (6d) effects from static abilities that modify power and/or toughness but don’t set power and/or toughness to a specific number or value; and (6e) effects that switch a creature’s power and toughness. See also the rules for timestamp order and dependency (rules 418.5b–418.5g).

    This how it works with Humility and Factory:
    Both Humility and Factory's power/toughness setting abilities would take place in layer 6b so they are applied in time stamp order. So whichever one happened most recently (humility coming into play or activating the factory would take precedence). So normally a factory would be a 2/2 that can't tap for mana or pump when a humility is in play and you turned it into a creature. The only time it would be a 1/1 is if humility came into play after factory was a creature and only for the duration of that turn, future activations would make it a 2/2.

    Also some other notes on Humility:
    Since counters are applied in Layer 6c and Humility's applies in layer 6b, the counters would not be overwritten by a humility. So for instance say you have a 2/2 creature with 3 +1/+1 counters, it would be a 4/4 under humility. Note that this is always true whether or not the counters where on it before humility came into play.

    Pump effects such as giant growth and effects such as rancor are applied in layer 6d. So like the counters they will never get overridden by a humility.

    Also something to note about the layers not related to Humility is that since power and toughness switching effects are applied as the last thing in layer 6e, effects that alter a creatures power would alter toughness and vice versa. For example an aquameba with switched power and toughness as a 3/1. If you were to give it -0/-1 it would become a 2/1 since switching is applied after the -0/-1.

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    Re: Humility / ________

    Okay. That's pretty much what I thought. The discussion I had the previous night wasn't so much whether it was 1/1 or 2/2, but whether or not it had its ability when it turned into a creature. I -knew- it didn't, but I was doing a very bad job of trying to explain why. He kept saying "It became a creature after Humility was in play so it has the ability" and the best argument I could come up with is "No, you're stupid." Both clauses in my amazingly eloquent three word response were completely valid and correct points, but didn't help explain anything. (Possibly because I'd gotten up at 6:30 in the morning to drive an hour and fifteen minutes to deal blackjack for five hours.)

    Quote Originally Posted by majikal View Post
    Damn it, Taco, that exactly sums up my opinion on the matter. I need to buy you a beer for that post.

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    Re: Humility / ________

    Quote Originally Posted by Tacosnape
    Okay. That's pretty much what I thought. The discussion I had the previous night wasn't so much whether it was 1/1 or 2/2, but whether or not it had its ability when it turned into a creature. I -knew- it didn't, but I was doing a very bad job of trying to explain why. He kept saying "It became a creature after Humility was in play so it has the ability" and the best argument I could come up with is "No, you're stupid." Both clauses in my amazingly eloquent three word response were completely valid and correct points, but didn't help explain anything. (Possibly because I'd gotten up at 6:30 in the morning to drive an hour and fifteen minutes to deal blackjack for five hours.)
    Yes the reason why Factory loses its abilities is because Humility says "All creatures lose all abilities". Time stamps are irrelevant to this. Now maybe if Factory said that it gains abilities when you turn it into a creature then timestamps would matter, but it doesn't.

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    Re: Humility / ________

    Quote Originally Posted by quicksilver
    Now maybe if Factory said that it gains abilities when you turn it into a creature then timestamps would matter, but it doesn't.
    This is true. For example, a Nantuko Monastery will have first strike if you activate it after Humility enters play. This is because Humility's "all creatures lose all abilities" text and Monastery's "Monastery becomes a creature with first strike" text both apply in layer 5, and thus timestamp is applied.

    Factory's difference is that its pumping ability isn't granted by its animation ability; it's an ability written on the card that Humility can remove as normal.

    The main reason this all works differently than it used to is that text-changing abilities used to force every aspect of an ability to apply in layer 4. So, a manland animation, which changes the cards type from land to land creature, would apply fully (including power/toughness setting and ability granting) in time for Humility to strip it all away in layers 5 and 6.

    John Carter explains the changes to the layering system very well here (the 2nd question).
    Quote Originally Posted by nitewolf9
    I can show up whenever I vomit off my hangover and get rid of the passed out females who's naked bodies will be sprawled out all over my condo. Oh wait, I'm engaged. FUCK.

    Well in that case I can be there at like 2 then, I guess.
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    Re: Humility / ________

    Quote Originally Posted by Obfuscate Freely
    This is true. For example, a Nantuko Monastery will have first strike if you activate it after Humility enters play. This is because Humility's "all creatures lose all abilities" text and Monastery's "Monastery becomes a creature with first strike" text both apply in layer 5, and thus timestamp is applied.

    Factory's difference is that its pumping ability isn't granted by its animation ability; it's an ability written on the card that Humility can remove as normal.
    That's the explanation I was looking for last night. Much appreciated.

    Quote Originally Posted by majikal View Post
    Damn it, Taco, that exactly sums up my opinion on the matter. I need to buy you a beer for that post.

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    Re: Humility / ________

    Quick question on this, does the same hold true for instant-type effects? For example, if I cast giant growth on a creature, then it should get the +3/+3 till the end of the turn whether or not a humility is already in play or enters play that turn, correct?

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    Re: Humility / ________

    Quote Originally Posted by quicksilver
    Pump effects such as giant growth and effects such as rancor are applied in layer 6d. So like the counters they will never get overridden by a humility.

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    Re: Humility / ________

    I know this is a really dumb question, but I have never dealt with humility before. Anyway, if I play a creature after Humility is in play, is it a 1/1 or whatever it would normally be? Again, I know this is stupid, but it is hard to tell from just the wording.

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    Re: Humility / ________

    Humility is an enchantment that sets up a continuous effect. It will affect all creatures in play regardless of when they entered play. That is how enchantments generally work.
    Example
    Fires of Yavimaya gives all your creatures Haste as long as it is in play, not just the ones in play already (It would suck a lot if it work like the latter)

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    Re: Humility / ________

    Quote Originally Posted by Ewokslayer
    Humility is an enchantment that sets up a continuous effect. It will affect all creatures in play regardless of when they entered play. That is how enchantments generally work.
    Example
    Fires of Yavimaya gives all your creatures Haste as long as it is in play, not just the ones in play already (It would suck a lot if it work like the latter)
    Yeah, I thought so, but the oracle text just felt a little funny to me because of the lack of words such as control and such, and I wanted to make sure, thanks!

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    Humility and Phyrexian Totem/manlands

    If my opponent has a Humility in play, it says that "all creatures lose all abilities and are 1/1's". But what if I have a Phyrexian Totem in play and activate it turning it into a 5/5, can it somehow get around Humility's effect? My logic is that maybe it could because it was never a creature in the first place. I'm also wondering if the same applies for manlands. Any help would be great. Thanx.

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    Re: Humility and Phyrexian Totem/manlands

    When P. Totem is activated it becomes a creature, loses all abilities, and becomes a 5/5. Simple.
    Last edited by xsockmonkeyx; 02-15-2007 at 04:45 AM. Reason: 5/5 not 1/1, my bad
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    Re: Humility and Phyrexian Totem/manlands

    You're wrong, the Totem is effected by timestamp. When activated like manlands it'll be a 5/5.

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    Re: Humility and Phyrexian Totem/manlands

    Quote Originally Posted by wastedlife View Post
    You're wrong, the Totem is effected by timestamp. When activated like manlands it'll be a 5/5.
    Will you get the crap about "Time Stamp" out of your head!!!
    (That goes for everybody, not just Bryant!!!)

    Humility works now because of layers. Yes, like the manlands, the totem will have power and toughness equal to whatever animated stats are printed on the card, but won't have any abilities.
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    Re: How Humility Works

    Did the mods merge my thread or something? I remember having an independent thread. Oh well, it doesn't matter anyways. Thanx for the quick responses guys. I kinda had a hunch that Totems worked under Humility but wasn't sure. Thanx for the feedback.

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    Re: Humility and Phyrexian Totem/manlands

    Quote Originally Posted by on1y0ne View Post
    Will you get the crap about "Time Stamp" out of your head!!!
    (That goes for everybody, not just Bryant!!!)
    It is necessary to understand time stamps in order to understand how Humility interacts with other continuous effects, such as those created by manlands and Totems.

    If you activate a Phyrexian Totem, and play a Humility afterwards, the Totem will shrink to a 1/1 and lose its abilities. Obviously this won't happen often, but it seems relevant nonetheless.

    Humility works now because of layers. Yes, like the manlands, the totem will have power and toughness equal to whatever animated stats are printed on the card, but won't have any abilities.
    I'm fairly certain you are incorrect. For reference (copied from the Comp Rules again, although nothing was changed since my post above):

    Quote Originally Posted by The Comp Rules
    418.5a The values of an object’s characteristics are determined by starting with the actual object, then applying continuous effects in a series of layers in the following order:

    (1) copy effects (see rule 503, “Copying Objects”)
    (2) control-changing effects
    (3) text-changing effects
    (4) type-, subtype-, and supertype-changing effects
    (5) all other continuous effects, except those that change power and/or toughness
    (6) power- and/or toughness-changing effects.

    Inside each layer from 1 through 5, apply effects from characteristic-setting abilities first, then all other effects in timestamp order. Inside layer 6, apply effects in a series of sublayers in the following order:

    (6a) effects from characteristic-setting abilities
    (6b) all other effects not specifically applied in 6c, 6d, or 6e
    (6c) changes from counters
    (6d) effects from static abilities that modify power and/or toughness but don’t set power and/or toughness to a specific number or value
    (6e) effects that switch a creature’s power and toughness.

    Within each sublayer, apply effects in timestamp order
    Here is the Oracle text of Phyrexian Totem:
    3
    Artifact

    T: Add B to your mana pool.
    2B: Phyrexian Totem becomes a 5/5 black Horror artifact creature with trample until end of turn.
    Whenever Phyrexian Totem is dealt damage, if it's a creature, sacrifice that many permanents.
    When you activate the Totem's second ability, it creates a continuous effect with three parts, each of which apply in a different layer:

    1) Totem becomes a Horror artifact creature until end of turn. This applies in layer 4.
    3) Totem is black and has trample until end of turn. This applies in layer 5.
    2) Totem becomes a 5/5 until end of turn. This applies in (sub)layer 6b.

    The Oracle text of Humility:
    2WW
    Enchantment

    All creatures lose all abilities and are 1/1.
    Humility creates a continuous effect with two parts:

    1) All creatures lose all abilities. This applies in layer 5.
    2) All creatures are 1/1. This applies in (sub)layer 6b.

    Obviously, there is no conflict with Totem becoming a Horror artifact creature. Humility has no control over types.

    However, there is a conflict in layer 5. Totem's ability wants Totem to be black and to have trample. Humility doesn't care what color Totem is, but it doesn't want it to have trample. Since all of this is going on in layer 5, we have to look at timestamp to figure out which effect wins out. Assuming Humility is already in play when the Totem's ability resolves, the Totem's ability will have the later timestamp, and thus will overrule Humility's effect.

    So, the Totem will be black and will have trample.

    In (sub)layer 6b, there will be another conflict. Humility wants the Totem to be 1/1, but the effect created by the Totem's ability wants it to be 5/5. Again, timestamp order is applied, and the Totem will become a 5/5.

    The interesting thing about Phryrexian Totem is that its other ability, the sacrifice trigger, is "built-in" to the card. It isn't granted by any continuous effect, so Humility will remove it as soon as the Totem becomes a creature. This is similar to why an animated Factory loses its pumping ability under Humility.

    In other words, Phyrexian Totem becomes strictly better under Humility. It loses nothing but the drawback.
    Quote Originally Posted by nitewolf9
    I can show up whenever I vomit off my hangover and get rid of the passed out females who's naked bodies will be sprawled out all over my condo. Oh wait, I'm engaged. FUCK.

    Well in that case I can be there at like 2 then, I guess.
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    What are regrets?

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    Re: How Humility Works

    I wasn't clear when I said it wouldn't have abilities, and for that, I apoligize. The totem, now a creature, no longer has "T:Add B to your mana pool." and "2B: {this} becomes a 5/5 black creature with trample and ... blah, blah, blah, until end of turn."

    Again, I apologize for the confusion in my answer. I have been drugged up for the last few days due to pneumonia, so some things aren't getting put into words so easily.
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    Re: How Humility Works

    I'm sorry for misunderstanding you. Actually, I overlooked that the other abilities (the mana ability and the animate ability) would be stripped by Humility, as well as the drawback. I guess the Totem isn't strictly better under Humility.

    All that really means is that if a Humility enters play after you activate the Totem, it'll become a vanilla 1/1, and you can't undo the effect by re-animating it since the Totem no longer has that ability.

    I hope you feel better soon.
    Quote Originally Posted by nitewolf9
    I can show up whenever I vomit off my hangover and get rid of the passed out females who's naked bodies will be sprawled out all over my condo. Oh wait, I'm engaged. FUCK.

    Well in that case I can be there at like 2 then, I guess.
    Quote Originally Posted by IAmTheBestEver View Post
    I built my car with my bare hands. It has 32 engines and 17 gas pedals so I can go extra-turbo fast. I sold it for a million dollars and then stole it from the guy using my super computer that can hack into any car in the world as long as I built it. Now I speed down the highway listening to Bruce Springsteen at max volume and flipping off other drivers.

    What are regrets?

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