How Humility Works

[Ewokslayer]

You end up with a 1/1 with 7 +1/+1 counters on it making it a 8/8.
The Life gain and damage replacement abilities are removed by Humility and are ignored.

[Burr]

hey, i was playin some mtg today and i ran into some more problems with this card! If humility is in play and my opponent plays a morphed exalted angel does it still have the ability to morph up? and if so is it a 1/1 or a 4/5?

Also, if i have humility in play and my opponent plays a Tarmogoyf, is it a 1/1 or stronger?

Thanks

[Bardo]

Re: Morphed Angel. 1/1 no unmorph ability (I think), no life gain. Morph is a static ability, but an ability nonetheless. If I'm wrong please let me know.

Re: Tarmogoyf. Normally, I'd think it was a 1/1, but maybe something about the 'characteristic defining ability' (e.g. Sutured Ghoul in Breakfast) of the card gets around Humility at some layer where the CDA is set. I'd like to know the answer for this one, but I'm guessing it won't be a 1/1. Anyone know the answer?

[Nihil Credo]

Characteristic-defining abilities have the only privilege of being applied first inside each layer; every other continous effect in the same layer is applied afterwards, in timestamp order (except for layer 6, where you also have sublayer madness to consider). So everyone's favourite chase rare doesn't dodge Humility. (Incidentally, that means that if they ever printed a card that removed all abilities from a creature without assigning it a new power and toughness, then it would kill Tarmogoyf and every other card with *-based toughness.)

As for Exalted Angel, it is still a 1/1, but it retains its morph ability. This is because the option to unmorph is a continous effect that is set when the Morph spell resolves, and not something pertaining to the permanent itself - rather, it behaves like Guardian Angel's effect (how's that for obscure card knowledge? :P). That said, after unmorphing Angel you still get a 1/1 with no abilities - unless Humility is get rid of, it only gains a name, colour, creature type, and resilience to Nosy Goblin.

[Burr]

So then how come tarmgoyf is different caompared to mishra's factory when both have to set their power/toughness when becoming animated. mishra becomes a 2/2 while tarmgoyf is a 1/1 when humility is in play, i dont get it

Also, does humility take away triggered abitlities such as flametongue kavu's ability to deal 4 dmg to a creature when it comes into play?

[Nihil Credo]

Hey, you asked for it, man:

418.5a. The values of an object's characteristics are determined by starting with the actual object, then applying continuous effects in a series of layers in the following order: (1) copy effects (see rule 503, "Copying Objects"); (2) control-changing effects; (3) text-changing effects; (4) type-changing effects (which includes effects that change an object's card type, subtype, and/or supertype); (5) all other continuous effects, except those that change power and/or toughness; and (6) power- and/or toughness-changing effects. Inside each layer from 1 through 5, apply effects from characteristic-defining abilities first, then all other effects in timestamp order. Inside layer 6, apply effects in a series of sublayers in the following order: (6a) effects from characteristic-defining abilities; (6b) all other effects not specifically applied in 6c, 6d, or 6e; (6c) changes from counters; (6d) effects from static abilities that modify power and/or toughness but don't set power and/or toughness to a specific number or value; and (6e) effects that switch a creature's power and toughness. Within each sublayer, apply effects in timestamp order. Note that dependency may alter the order in which effects are applied within a layer or sublayer. See also the rules for timestamp order and dependency (rules 418.5b-418.5g).

Tarmogoyf's characteristic-defining ability's effect applies in 6a. Humility's effect applies in 6b.

Mishra's Factory's animation effect applies in 6b too, so it applies last if you animate Factory after playing Humility; if you drop the enchantment afterwards, then Factory will be a 1/1.

Note that either way the Factory will not be able to give +1/+1 to anything; this is because the pumping ability is not part of the animation effect itself (unlike Nantuko Monastery's first strike) and, as a generic effect, it applies in layer 5, well before Humility's effect.

[Burr]

what a headache.. thanks a lot man lol

[Taurelin]

3 things:

1) I think this question hasn't been answered explicitely.

Also, does humility take away triggered abitlities such as flametongue kavu's ability to deal 4 dmg to a creature when it comes into play?

The answer is yes. Humility removes all abilities. A trigered ability is an ability. Hence, Flametongue's ability is removed. q.e.d.


2)

resilience to Nosy Goblin.

Nosy Goblin also loses its activated ability, because it's a creature. So Angel is safe, anyway.

3)

As for Exalted Angel, it is still a 1/1, but it retains its morph ability. This is because the option to unmorph is a continous effect that is set when the Morph spell resolves, and not something pertaining to the permanent itself

How does this statement relate to the following (from Wizards Judge Resources):

* If Humility is in play, it's not possible to turn face-down creatures face up using the morph ability. Humility removes the morph cost when it removes the morph ability, and so it prevents you from doing this.

(link)


My interpretation of the Morph-Humility-interaction is based on the following section from the CompRules:

502.26b To play a card using its morph ability, turn it face down. It becomes a 2/2 face-down creature card, with no text, no name, no subtypes, no expansion symbol, and no mana cost. Any effects or prohibitions that would apply to playing a card with these characteristics (and not the face-up card’s characteristics) are applied to playing this card. These values are the copiable values of that object’s characteristics. (See rule 418.5, “Interaction of Continuous Effects,” and rule 503, “Copying Objects.”) Put it onto the stack (as a face-down spell with the same characteristics), and pay {3} rather than pay its mana cost. This follows the rules for paying alternative costs. You can use morph to play a card from any zone from which you could normally play it. When the spell resolves, it comes into play with the same characteristics the spell had. The morph effect applies to the face-down object wherever it is, and it ends when the permanent is turned face up.

(link)

The morph ability belongs to Exalted Angel's characteristics. Since it's a static ability, Humility removes it.

Correct me if I'm wrong.

[Nihil Credo]

Nosy Goblin also loses its activated ability, because it's a creature. So Angel is safe, anyway.

Hmm... ehm... did I mention there's a Soul Sculptor in play that used its ability on Nosy Goblin after the face-down Angel was played, but before Humility came into play? :P

* If Humility is in play, it's not possible to turn face-down creatures face up using the morph ability. Humility removes the morph cost when it removes the morph ability, and so it prevents you from doing this.

Wow. Ok, I did a couple more searches about the issue, and it seems there have been contradicting rulings on this. The Cranial Insertion judges agree with the one you quoted, while Sheldon Menery (on the SCG answer team) says that morph still works.

After reading around a while, I now agree that Humility does indeed stop unmorphage. Here's where I made a mistake:

502.26a. Morph is a static ability that functions in any zone from which you could play the card it's on, and the morph effect works any time the card is face down.A ny time you could play an instant, you may show all players the morph cost for any face-down permanent you control, pay that cost, then turn the permanent face up. This action does not use the stack.

Exalted Angel has the morph ability when it's a card in hand, or in another zone from which you can play it. This means, for example, that if Angel is in your graveyard, there's an Yixlid Jailer in play, and you resolve Yawgmoth's Will, you can't play the Angel as a morph from your graveyard (though you can still hardcast him).

I was thinking that a face-down Angel does not have a morph ability, which Humility would remove. However, what happens is that the Angel does have the morph ability - it just doesn't function, because you can't play the Angel from the in-play zone.

But even if it doesn't function, the ability still provides an important part of the 'turning face-up process' - the morph cost. By taking away the 'atrophied' ability, Humility also deprives the Angel of its morph cost, so you can't perform the requisite "show all players the morph cost" action.

[TrialByFire]

Can you play an evoke creature for its Evoke cost with Humility out? With my understanding of Humility, it should be possible to Evoke Shriekmaw for 1B and get a 1/1 out of it right?

[Taurelin]

Can you play an evoke creature for its Evoke cost with Humility out? With my understanding of Humility, it should be possible to Evoke Shriekmaw for 1B and get a 1/1 out of it right?

Yes this works.

502.74a Evoke represents two abilities: a static ability that functions in any zone from which the card can be played and a triggered ability that functions in play.

The static ability won't be affected by Humility (just as Madness, Affinity etc.). Once the creature is in play, it becomes a 1/1 without any abilites, though, thus the CiP-trigger won't ... trigger.

[GiantGrowth]

ok, let me see if I'm understanding this correctly.

what about equipment that gives the creature abilities, like loxodon warhammer? It's my understanding that it will happen in timestamp order so if you played the hammer after the humility was played the creature will have the ablilities.

also, what about the power change? If I'm correct, the humility effect happens in layer 6(b) then the warhammer's effect happens in layer 6(d) so the creature always gets +3/+0 regardless of timestamp.

am I correct?

[Taurelin]

what about equipment that gives the creature abilities, like loxodon warhammer? It's my understanding that it will happen in timestamp order so if you played the hammer after the humility was played the creature will have the ablilities.

To be more precise: if you equip the hammer to the creature after Humility was played, it will have the abilities.

That means, if the hammer is already equipped to a creature and a Humility is played, the creature loses its abilities. But if you equip another creature, a new timestamp will be set.

Please also note that some equipment has abilities that are not affected by Humility at all. For example Sword of Fire and Ice.

Artifact - Equipment, 3 (3)
Equip {2}.
Equipped creature gets +2/+2 and has protection from red and from blue.
Whenever equipped creature deals combat damage to a player, Sword of Fire and Ice deals 2 damage to target creature or player and you draw a card.

The bold ability will always apply, because it belongs to the artifact itself, not to the equipped creature.

also, what about the power change? If I'm correct, the humility effect happens in layer 6(b) then the warhammer's effect happens in layer 6(d) so the creature always gets +3/+0 regardless of timestamp.

am I correct?

Yes. The timestamp rule only applies to changes that happen in the same layer.

[Arsenal]

So, is there a comprehensive list of common interactions with Humility? Like:

1.) Come into play/Leave play triggered abilities do not trigger under Humility.

2.) Evoke costs can still be paid in order to play a creature.

3.) etc...

A nice, neat, compiled list would be dandy for quick reference.

[freakish777]

But if you equip another creature, a new timestamp will be set.

This doesn't even have to be a different creature, you just have to pay the equip cost again and target a creature you control (can be the same creature it was previously equipped to).

[Taurelin]

This doesn't even have to be a different creature, you just have to pay the equip cost again and target a creature you control (can be the same creature it was previously equipped to).

I believe that's wrong.

501.2b If an effect tries to attach an Aura, Equipment, or Fortification to the object it’s already attached to, the effect does nothing.

501.2c Attaching an Aura, Equipment, or Fortification in play to a different object causes the Aura, Equipment, or Fortification to receive a new timestamp.

I read this rule 501.b like "the effect does nothing, not even create a new timestamp."

Can anybody confirm or contradict?

[Anusien]

You're correct. You can tell because it says so in the rules section you quoted.

[Burr]

I know humility stops come into play triggered abilities, but what about the triggered abilities that go off when a creature is put into the graveyard (such as Epochrasite)? Do their abilities go off now that the creature is no longer in play?

Thanks in advance

[Maveric78f]

Humility stops come into play and leave play effects. Otherwise you'd see more and more academy rector control decks I believe.

[Burr]

hm i see, are you sure though. i mean the creature is no longer in play. does this mean that it also affects cards like wonder and genesis?