How Humility Works

[Cait_Sith]

The problem is that isn't actually what happens, so if there is any sort of minus effect it could get ugly.

[PhanTom_lt]

Well, all effects starting with "Becomes.." are of the same level, or layer. So it is almost the truth. And the rest minus or plus effects are applied later.

[Burr]

Hi,
I was playing a game on MWS and had a Humility out. I then attempted to plainscycle my Eternal Dragon but my opponent told me I couldn't because Humility takes away Eternal's cycling. He then said Humility also affects cards like genesis while its in the graveyard.

Is my opponent correct? If not, how do I prove to him that Humility only affects creatures in play?

Thanks

[Nihil Credo]

When a card mentions a type (e.g. "artifact", "creature") or subtype (e.g. "Elf", "Aura") without following it with a clarification such as "card" or "spell", it automatically means a permanent of that type or subtype.

In this case, Humility says "All creatures lose all abilities", and therefore refers to creature permanents (i.e. cards or tokens in play), but does not include creature cards like a Genesis in the yard or a Dragon in hand which are not permanents because they are not in play.

[Taurelin]

This question came up in two German speaking forums, and I would like to know how the American experts handle this problem.

How does Magus of the Moon work with Humility in play?

Explanation a)
Magus of the Moon's effect applies in Layer 4, Humility in Layer 5. Therefore, Magus will turn all non-basic lands into Mountains, while he himself becomes a 1/1 without any abilities.

Explanation b)
Before applying layers, we have to see which effects are active in the first place.
Permanents --> effects
Magus of the Moon --> (effect) makes mountains
Humility --> (effect) removes abilities from creatures --> Magus's effect is gone!
So only Humility's effect remains, the result is that all non-basic lands remain the same, while Magus is a 1/1 without abilities.

What would you say, which version is correct? Or is there a completely different explanation?

[Van Phanel]

Explanation a) is absolutely correct.

The game goes through the layers and when it arrives in layer4 Magus still has its abiility and all nonbasics are mountains. In layer 5 Humility removes the ability of Magus, but it has already done its dirty job.

@Sanguine Voyeur: I don't want to be rude, but this thread is not the right place for "believing".

[freakish777]

Out of curiosity, do I have to play Nature's Revolt and Humility in a specific order to make lands not tap for mana (similar to Null Rod + Mycosynth Lattice)? Or can I play them in any order?

[Ewokslayer]

Any order, since Nature's Revolt will affect the lands in an earlier layer than humility.

[Van Phanel]

Edit - response to your edit - Yeah, that's pretty much where the confusion lies. It doesn't matter where the ability of the Magus applies, because it would only conflict with Humility if it were changing the characteristics of the Magus (see: Dryad Arbor). Since it only applies to other objects, there is no conflict, and the lands are whatever they are, since the Magus ability is removed.

No dependance here as among other things both abilities would have to be in the same layer:

418.5c An effect is said to “depend on” another if (a) it’s applied in the same layer (and, if applicable, sublayer) as the other effect [...]

And still the nonbasics will be mountains.

418.5a The values of an object’s characteristics are determined by starting with the actual object, then applying continuous effects in a series of layers in the following order: (1) copy effects (see rule 503, “Copying Objects”); (2) control-changing effects; (3) text-changing effects; (4) type-changing effects (which includes effects that change an object’s card type, subtype, and/or supertype); (5) all other continuous effects, except those that change power and/or toughness; and (6) power- and/or toughness-changing effects.

Emphasis mine.

When trying to find out what the nonbsics are, you start with the actual objects as they are printed. Then you go through the layers. In layer 4 you see a Magus of the Moon with an ability that turns all nonbasics in the mountains. In layer 5 that ability will be removed but it's job is already done.

The mistake is to assume that you would get a new result if you'd go through the layers again. But actually if you follow the rule quoted above, you will still find the ability of Magus in layer 4.

[Shugyosha]

When trying to find out what the nonbsics are, you start with the actual objects as they are printed. Then you go through the layers. In layer 4 you see a Magus of the Moon with an ability that turns all nonbasics in the mountains. In layer 5 that ability will be removed but it's job is already done.

The mistake is to assume that you would get a new result if you'd go through the layers again. But actually if you follow the rule quoted above, you will still find the ability of Magus in layer 4.

So destroying the Magus would then also have no effect? The nonbasics stay mountains?

[Jaiminho]

So destroying the Magus would then also have no effect? The nonbasics stay mountains?

Magus isn't in play anymore, so its ability will not be in effect.

EDIT: You might be thinking that, as it is written, an effect stays in action after it is applied in its own layer, so when you are to apply effects again, Magus won't have that ability since, on layer 5 of when you applied Humility's effect, it lost its ability. It isn't like that. What happens is that, whenever you apply effects according to their layers, you are as if resetting everything to its printed stage. Then, by going layer by layer and effect by effect, you find out the state of the permanent in play.

[Anusien]

Van Phanel is correct on all counts. Magus of the Moon + Humility results in Magus of the Moon's type changing ability taking effect in Layer 4 and Humility changing Magus of the Moon into a 1/1 with no abilities in Layer 5 and 6. So you'll have a 1/1 Magus and a bunch of Mountains. Note: It doesn't matter that Humility takes away Magus's abilities in Layer 5 since they already applied in layer 4. Once Magus dies, its ability will no longer apply.

Please don't answer rules questions if you aren't sure. In the case of Humility, if your answer does not break each ability down into the layers they apply to, don't answer. It only causes confusion.

If you're not sure, someone still has to post saying you're right, and if you're wrong, someone has to post and clear up the confusion. So if you don't know, please don't post. It will only make things more difficult.

[Taurelin]

Just for clarification: Isn't there a contradiction to the following rules?

410.10b Continuous effects that modify characteristics of a permanent do so the moment the permanent is in play (and not before then). The permanent is never in play with its unmodified characteristics. Continuous effects don’t apply before the permanent is in play, however (see rule 410.10e).
Example: If an effect reads “All lands are creatures” and a land card is played, the effect makes the land card into a creature the moment it enters play, so it would trigger abilities that trigger when a creature comes into play. Conversely, if an effect reads “All creatures lose all abilities” and a creature card with a comes-into-play triggered ability enters play, that effect will cause it to lose its abilities the moment it enters play, so the comes-into-play ability won’t trigger.

418.2. Continuous effects that modify characteristics of permanents do so simultaneously with the permanent coming into play. They don’t wait until the permanent is in play and then change it.

If you apply these rules to Magus with Humility in play, you might say that Magus already enters play without his type-changing ability, or rather that Magus is never in play with his ability?

[Van Phanel]

Try to look at the layer-system like this:

Whenever anything in play changes, the game tries to find out, what the actual game-state is. To do so, it starts with the actual printed cards. Then it goes through the layers.

With Magus turned face-down it finds nothing in layer 4 because the Magus has no text anymore:

502.26e If a face-up permanent is turned face down by a spell or ability, it becomes a 2/2 face-down creature, with no text, no name, no subtypes, no expansion symbol, and no mana cost.

If you apply these rules to Magus with Humility in play, you might say that Magus already enters play without his type-changing ability, or rather that Magus is never in play with his ability?

Correct. It would enter play as a 3/3 with Muraganda Petroglyphs in play. (as an example)

Still look at what I said above. Whenever the game goes through the layers, it starts with the printed object. It does so, even if the actual object in play has changed somehow.

[Jason]

I was wondering if Humility removes the sorcery-speed clause on Teferi; it seems to me this would be a similar situation as Magus of the Moon. I couldn't find any information on what layer Teferi's abilities are applied.

[yggdrasil]

I was wondering if Humility removes the sorcery-speed clause on Teferi; it seems to me this would be a similar situation as Magus of the Moon. I couldn't find any information on what layer Teferi's abilities are applied.

It's not applied in any layer since it's not an effect that changes the characteristics of an object, but the rules of the game itself (in this case: when spells can be played).
So when an opponent wants to play an Instant end-of-turn, the game checks whether this was legal or not. To determine that, we must know if Teferi still has his abilities. To determine that, in turn, we have to look how the continuous effects are applied --> Layer rules. They show us that Teferi looses his abilities in Layer 5 due to Humility and therefor, there is nothing preventing your opponent from playing his Instant in your End of Turn-Step.

[Lasher]

What happens if Humility is in play and I play Meddling Mage?
Do I still get to name a card? If the Humility leaves play the Mage's effect kicks in?

[TeKo]

"As comes into play" effects still work, so you name a card!

[Nihil Credo]

"As comes into play" effects still work, so you name a card!

However, the second ability ("The named card can't be played") does not work, so the card you named can be played normally - as long as Humility remains in play.

[Taurelin]

However, when Humility leaves play, the game remembers which card was chosen for Meddling Mage back then. So after that it can't be played.