This is a list I played at the second Duel for Duals last weekend; tournament report can be found here.
4x Savannah
4x Scrubland
4x Bayou
4x Windswept Heath
1x Bloodstained Mire
2x Swamp
2x Plains
2x Forest
4x Duress
4x Hymn to Tourach
4x Swords to Plowshares
4x Pernicious Deed
3x Vindicate
3x Wrath of God
3x Sensei's Divining Top
3x Krosan Tusker (I loveded you piggy! I loveded you!)
3x Eternal Dragon
2x Grave-Shell Scarab
2x Gigapede
2x Haunting Echoes
Edit: -2 Decree of Justice, -1 Vindicate, +3 Sensei's Divining Top, -1 Savannah for +1 Polluted Delta, and replaced Gerrard's Verdict with Hymn To Tourach
SB:
4x Loxodon Hierach
4x Eternal Witness
4x Cabal Therapy
3x Infest
The deck's overall strategy is to be as vulnerable to Wasteland as it wants in favor of simply touching on all the best control cards and kill conditions across the three best control colors in the game. It runs an arsenal of powerful removal, some disruption, and an array of extremely hard to deal with kill conditions, the sixth of which attacks not the life total but the library (Echoes).
Individual card choices:
Bayou/Scrubland/Savannah- Fuck Wasteland.
Windswept Heath- Grabs basics of either color.
2x each Basic- Allows for some more enduring land drops and fuel for Krosan Tusker, and allows you to not cry at Ruination.
1x Mire- The best 23rd land I could think of. Smoothes the mana a bit while allowing another basic swamp that can, if need by, not be.
Pernicious Deed- The most versatile and efficent board sweeper in the game.
Wrath of God- The most efficent creature sweeper.
Vindicate- The most versatile pin-point destruction spell at a reasonable cost.
Swords to Plowshares- The most efficent 1-for-1 creature removal spell in the game.
Duress- The most efficent 1 cc discard spell.
Hymn to Tourach- Slightly harder to cast than Gerrard's Verdict, but very usually doable with 16 black sources and back breaking a large part of the time, helping a lot more against both Goblins and Solidarity.
Eternal Dragon- Colorless mana fixing and a late-game, recurring airborne threat.
Krosan Tusker- a 2-for-1, uncounterable mana accelerant and digger that transforms into an additional beatstick late game; while 7 mana isn't efficent, 6/5 is relevantly huge, able to kill every threat in Goblins or Threshold, including post-board Patrons, and seldom trading.
Gigapede/Grave-Shell Scarab- Swords proof, counter proof beaters. Gigapede is a little better against aggro-control/combo, and Grave-shell is a little better against aggro and decks running tons of removal.
Sensei's Divining Top- Combos with infinite shuffle effects to provide long-term card quality and keep up in the mid-to-late game, as well as stabilizing mana early game.
SB Choices
Loxodon Hierach- Almost maindecked. A remarkably well costed beater and defensive specialist.
Eternal Witness- Recurs your most relevant cards; usually sided in in place of discard against aggro, or in place of control against combo. Combos with Therapy nicely.
Cabal Therapy- Additional discard and a combo with Witness.
Infest- Early board sweeper against Goblins.
Debatable Slots:
Vindicate- This deck has no dedicated LD strategy. While it is the card's role against Solidarity, it still doesn't make game 1 amazing, meaning Vindicate is mostly a fleible Disenchant/Dark Banishing slot. This is acceptable, but it makes me question the 4x. I'd be comfortable going down to 3, I think.
DoJ- The deck suffers from potentially too many kill conditions in an aggro/combo heavy meta like we say at the D4D, making me want to cut one, and DoJ pulls the least weight, not really being useful until turns 6-7 most of the time.
Krosan Tusker- I love the card, but I'm a bit biased. It might be better off as Sakura Tribe Elder, Yavimaya Elder, or Wall of Blossom.
Eternal Dragon- Same as above. The danger is in figuring out how many kill conditions you can actually safely cut.
Other Options:
Condemn- It might improve the goblins matchup, or aggro in general, to add 1 or 2 of these for StP 5-6. The question is if it's close enough to StP to run, and if the deck needs more StPs.
Sensei's Divining Top- Synergy with a ton of shufflers, and a way to spend excess mana and improve the late game a bit more.
Sakura-Tribe Elder/Yavimaya Elder/Wall of Blossoms- Additional chumpage/dig/manastabilizing. The latter two having much greater synergy with Cabal Therapy post board, obviously.
Matchups:
Goblins- Unfavored. It's too easy for them to keep your mana base disrupted. That said, it's far from unwinnable, you just want to keep them off their feet long enough to get fat down or Echoes away their muscle. Sideboard: -4 Duress -2 Gigapede, -1 Krosan Tusker, -1 Eternal Dragon, -2 Grave-Shell Scarab, +3 Infest, +3 Loxodon Hierach, +4 Eternal Witness
Solidarity- Hard matchup. Very hard. You need to draw all the right cards to win this game 1. Try to keep them off cards with discard, Vindicate land when you can, and try to get out a fast threat to take advantage of the lull in their plans. Sideboard: -4 StP, -3 Wrath of God, -4 Deed, -1 Haunting Echoes/Graveshell Scarab (the former on the draw, the latter on the play); +4 Cabal Therapy, +4 Eternal witness, +4 Loxodon Hierarch.
Threshold- Autowin. No, seriously. I know I said Train Wreck was a near autowin, but the difference was that once in a great while Threshold could race Train Wreck out. If you have land and you haven't drawn removal for all their threats, it means you've drawn creatures that kill them in combat instead. SB: +4 Hierarch, +4 Witness. I'd change what I sided out depending on the build and who was on the play, but discard, DoJ/E.Dragon, and Wrath of God are all potentially fair game. Vindicate is tempting to side out, but does kill Needles naming Deed. Speaking of which, I'd always side out 1 Deed so that Needle never completely rapes you, but in general I think I'd cut out 1 card here or 2 there rather than bring out the entire playset of any one card as all of them are pretty good in this matchup.
Rifter- Autowin. Discard + Deed + Haunting Echoes + No Good Swords targets... well, you don't want to activate too many cyclers while Rift is in play and mana is untapped, but otherwise it's a cakewalk. Vindicating land is fun too. Sideboard: -4 StP, -3 Wrath of God, +4 Eternal Witness, +3 Cabal Therapy. Try to Witness back Vindicate as many times as possible and keep them off of one color of mana, probably Red.
Angel Stompy- Heavily favored. Their biggest threat is their Equipment, but that opens them up to Deed. Post-board, Armageddon is threatening, but you can easily have a threat out by the time they can support it, and you run more land to recover quicker than them anyway. -8 Discard spells, +4 Hierarch, +4 Witness.
Suicide- I had little trouble with this matchup, actually, which surprised me. The discard and LD failed to make up for the difference in threat density and creature quality; I could always topdeck creature removal while my opponent ripped gradually weakening LD or hand disruption, and my opponent could never adequately deal with the fact that my creatures crushed his in a fair fight. Barring turn 1 Negator/Hyppie in lack of an StP, this is quite favorable
Deadguy Ale- See above, only more so as Deadguy really must try to play an aggro role it's less suited for in this matchup. In both cases sb would be; -8 Discard, -2 DoJ, -1 Wrath of God; +4 Loxodon Hierarch, +4 Eternal Witness, +3 Infest.
Salvagers Combo- You know, I expected this to be bad as well, but both Legoman and I found this deck ridiculously easy to beat. Every card but Wrath of God is good in some way against them. Non-land permanents are clearly < than this deck. SB: -3 Wrath of God, -2 DoJ, -1 Eternal Dragon, +3 Cabal Therapy, +3 Eternal Witness
Angel Stax- 2 kill conditions, reliance on non-land permanents, vulnerability to hand-disruption. This matchup was also surprisingly favorable. Keep pressure off the board, and the only real threat is Smokestack. SB: -4 StP, -3 Wrath of God, +4 Eternal Witness, +3 Therapy/Hierarch (former on the play, latter on the draw).
Burn- A really difficulty matchup. Your clock is half of theirs. Verdict is a bomb, but it's your only one MD. SB: -4 Pernicious Deed, -3 Wrath of God, -2 DoJ, -1 Eternal Dragon, -1 Krosan Tusker, +4 Loxodon Hierach, +4 Eternal Witness, +3 Cabal Therapy
Last edited by TheInfamousBearAssassin; 08-08-2006 at 06:52 PM.
For my confessions, they burned me with fire/
And found I was for endurance made
I actually liked the idea of this when I read your report. The list looks pretty good, but I would like to see a way for you to work Top into the deck. I ran a G/B/W deck in Standard (I know, not really that comparable), but it also ran 3 Top and just the ability to keep digging constantly to find answers is huge.
I was actually looking for a way to port that deck to 1.5, but it looks like you got a good start on it. This is what I was running in Type 2:
4 Temple Garden
2 Godless Shrine
2 Overgrown Tomb
2 Swamps
4 Plains
7 Forests
4 BoP
4 Tribe Elder
4 Hierarch
3 Carven Caryatid
2 Grave-Shell Scarab
4 Kodama's Reach
4 Mortify
3 Putrefy
2 Condemn
4 Wrath of God
3 Top
2 Golgari Signet
Top and Elder were pretty rock solid in this limited environment. So I knew the possibilities would be great in Legacy.
Originally Posted by Jack Burton
Why don't you play eternal witness main? It looks like you side it in every time and it's a great card of course.
With all that vulnerability to wasteland and LD in general, why not side life from the loam? It probably won't do much against goblins, but against decks like Train Wreck or Deadguy it might be great.
Where are the sideboarded Therapies you mentioned like 5 times? I think this deck would work much better if it ran 4 witness, 4 lox, and 4 elder maindeck. Then you can squeeze therapy in over verdict. A terrible card imo.
How's your combo matchup? It looks like you mull to Duress and hope to resolve a game winning echoes?
Now playing real formats.
- 2 Scarab
- 2 Gigapede
+ 4 Loxodon Hierarch
I am very sure about this. The deck doesn't need any creatures that dodge Removal. You still have more fat than they have removal and you have DoJ and Echoes. If it gets sworded it gained you 8 Life with card parity (protecting E Dragon from that Sword) - call it Renewed Faith on steroids. If Red Gro or Beatz start targeting it with red spells- duh.
Hierarch kills like the others every creature Gro and Goblins have on the Ground, it is faster against combodecks. Hierarch is furthermore the obvious bomb against R/G Beatz things and Burn. And against Deadguy, where you fight for every Mana it shines, too.
Furthermore the inclusion of Sensei's Divining Top seems great for the deck. But I am not sure what to cut. Maybe Tusker...
Last edited by Tao; 07-15-2006 at 11:17 AM.
Am I missing something here? If this deck is supposed to be a joke, it's not very funny.
I suppose I could always do impersonations of my girlfriend and/or anonymous internet strangers to keep the thread interesting. I'd hate to tread into the domain of plagiarism, though. I'm afraid you're going to have to settle for things as is.
re Top: Top is definitely in. -2 DoJ, -1 Vindicate, +3 Top.
re The Board: It is noticeable that 8 of the cards in the sideboard are incredibly maindeckable (Witness and Hierarch) and that I often side them in. The thing to note is that they're siding in for very different cards every game. Control by it's nature tends to have the wrong answers to the wrong threats fairly often. I could cut discard for maindeck Witness/Hiearch, but that would make combo unwinnable g1 and make Threshold much more difficult. I could cut creature control for Hierach/Witness, but that'd make aggro, Goblins, and Angel Stompy much worse. G1 keeps the strongest control elements possible for most matchups and then g2 switches out the weakest elements for quality filler.
Hymn to Tourach; I'm testing out Hymns in place of Verdicts with -1 Savannah, +1 Polluted Delta.
Hierach; This might be a good move in a Sui/Deadguy or Zoo/Burn dominated meta. Against Threshold I've found Gigapede and Grave-Shell to be amazing as they dodge both StP and counterspells. They also kill a Werebear and come back for the next one, which has been quite relevant in testing.
For my confessions, they burned me with fire/
And found I was for endurance made
This is like that Thunder Blugg thing, isn't it? "Krosan Tusker"? Yeah right, that thing doesn't even exist.
Seriously, Hymn to Tourach, still testing. It feels better late game that Verdict does, but I too often have it in my opening hand with no way to cast it. It has yet to be relevant that I couldn't cast it turn 2 (i.e. losing me the game) but I haven't tested it extensively versus combo. So I'm still up in the air.
@ Krosan Tusker: In all seriousness, should this guy be something else? I thought about cutting Dragon, but I have won too many games wherein I cycled this guy early, went about my thing, and then as soon as I had put the game away he came back and I didn't have to wait around for a win condition while my opponent fought his way back into the game. Krosan Tusker never comes back, which is why I'm wondering if something like Sakura-Tribe Elder might be better in the Goblins matchup, where he can chump. Then again, Tusker draws you into more relevant early-game stuff against Solidarity. But Sak Elder ramps you up a turn, which could be huge. I haven't tested him, but I think I will (the deck just wouldn't be the same without the Piggy)
@ Top: I haven't looked back. This thing is so good at finding you that one card you need to put the game away. Some games I've needed Pernicious Deeds or Haunting Echoes and late game you will often have enough mana to to look, bring back Eternal Dragon, cycle, look, grab a cycler or a fetchland on your draw, look again, fetch, look again. It just breaks a lot of stalemates is all I'm saying.
@ Board: The only one of these that I would consider maindeck is the Eternal Witness, but I'd be hesitant to cut anything out of the main. Jack explained this exactly how I would have.
P.S. Edit the opening post to reflect the awesomeness that is Top with 11 shuffle effects (not to mention the near-awesomeness of Top + Scarab)
It is f.. time that Divining Top finds its way into Legacy. It won me more games than I can count with Survival. You should increase your Fetchland count by 1 or 2 to support it more.
Hierarch is still better than Scarab and Gigapede. Aside from the obvious Burn and Deadguy / Sui matchup it is good vs Gro, too. Gro's only chance is a fast rush and Hierarch stops that. The mana base will get better, too, if the deck doesn't need GG anymore.
What about Regrowth? Witness is nice, but expansive and in one slot with Tusker, Deed and Vindicate. Regrowth can work as a land drop together with fetchlands, it can recur Swords and Duress really fast and it works as late game bomb when it recurs Wrath, Deed or a countered Echoes. Together with Divining Top you can go down to 21-22 lands without weakening the Mana base.
But why do I say it: IBA will surely about about the raw power of Regrowth from the Helldozer.dec
Suggested changes:
- 1/2 lands /Tusker
- 2 Gigapede
- 2 Scarab
+ 3 Hierarch
+ 3 Regrowth
Playing Regrowth would cut the Witness/Therapy plan from the SB.
At times I've wanted more fetches, but with 6 there already (I miscounted, forgetting that I added another for Hymn) I'm not sure it's needed. I'll test another though.
I'm not sure that Hierarch *is* better than those dudes. A lot of games are won by being able to recur your win conditions and the fact that they dodge the most played forms of removal. Hierarch doesn't do this. There has also never been a time in testing when Hierarch would stop a fast rush that Scarab or Gigapede wouldn't also stop. Also, by the time you have 5 mana (let's hope it's turn 5, because the whole point is that you don't miss any land drops) if you don't have GG, you had some pretty F***ed up land drops (or you screwed up somewhere.) I've not had a problem hitting GG, even dropping a Savannah. With 15 green lands plus Krosan Tusker and Eternal Dragon, your mana base won't really get ay better by taking out one of only two GG spells you support (the other of which is rarely hardcast, and is done way late game if it is)
I thought about Regrowth as well, but that last part is pretty much the reason I decided against it. Regrowth plays one role: recur your cards. Witness plays another two roles: beat, and recur Therapy. While I will often advocate Regrowth over Witness for the one mana difference, here I'd rather have the Witness. The point in this deck over Train Wreck is to have an actual clock, and in the combo matches where you'll be using the Witness a lot, she not only utterly destroys your opponent's hand in combination with Therapy, but she also begins the clock that is so crucial. She's usually a bunch better against Goblins, too.
The GG was my biggest problem with her, but in testing that's been pretty easy to get. Turn 2 I often have problems getting double single colored mana (BB or GG), especially depending on what I want to play turn 1 and 2 (which is why I'm still iffy on Hymn), but turn 3 and later I find I've often got two of every color, and rarely don't have the two I need. She isn't always cast on turn 3, because you want to use that Vindicate or drop a Deed early, so I haven't yet had a problem casting her.
Somewhat dissapointing results from the Dual Land Draft. I lost to having to play 2/3 of the Goblin decks there and generally poor matchups, with Solidarity and quicksilver's BurningWish/Discard/Survival madness insanity deck. Not to mention my Raffinity opponent's insane draws.
Lego also played the deck and lost to wasting time, making mistakes, and getting two draws in matchups that he should've won.
Both of us ran about the same list and found absolutely no problems with it, so the changes for the Tops and Hymns in place of Verdicts are going to be permanent.
For my confessions, they burned me with fire/
And found I was for endurance made
I want my 2 dollars.
My thoughts on the deck after the DLD are this:
1) Don't change a single card maindeck or sideboard
2) Don't be a dick, because you'll lose to yourself thinking it was your opponent
3) The deck does requires a lot of thinking, but learn to do that thinking quickly, because going to time sucks.
I went to time in literally every single one of my matchups except for vs. Herbig, who was playing Solidarity (and I think we came close to going to time anyway.) Play quickly, and you should be golden. I was messing around a lot during this tournament (as is evidenced by the fact that I boarded out Duress against Burning Tog because I felt bad for PR) and had I not been doing so, I fully believe that I would have T8ed. Given a little luck, there is nothing in the format that this deck cannot beat. That doesn't mean everything is easy, but there were only two games all tournament wherein I didn't feel completely in control of the game, and one of those was due to drawing 8 out of my 10 win conditions despite a Sensei's Divining Top (the other was because I was playing against Herbig.)
One of the best reasons, I think, to play this deck in a large tournament is that you'll never get bored playing it. It just seems like every game plays out differently, and you win a different way each time. Give it a bit of serious testing and you'll see what a powerhouse it seriously is. I was dissapointed a couple of times with my playskill, but never with the deck.
Why would you not play four Sensei's Divining Top?
When in doubt, mumble.
When in trouble, delegate.
I would actually consider the Kamigawa dragons for some finishers. Yosei and Kokusho in particular are awfully nice - either they kill it or you have a 5/5 flier for (C)(C)4.
...or they StP it and nothing happens.
Seriously, though, the prevalence of Swords to Plowshares (in decks like Thresh and Rifter among others) makes these guys less sexy than they otherwise would be. I've been tempted to run the Kami Dragons in decks before but have always been kinda leery about it because of StP. Granted, you could just board the dragons out against decks packing Swords, but I'm pretty sure that either those are the matchups that could benefit most from a 5/5 flying clock or the matchups where the dragons are good were already decent for you with the deck as-is. Now, maybe if you had an instant-speed sacrifce outlet so you trigger the dragon in response to a Swords...
So run Miren, the Moaning Well.
If they run a Plow at a Dragon, good beats. It's when they don't or they don't have Plows in their deck is when I'd be happy to have them.
Kadi and I were talking about Yosei a bit at the DLD, but it doesn't solve any problems that the deck has right now. They don't speed up your clock or provide any significant advantage over the creature base currently being run.
If you replaced Eternal Dragon or Krosan Tusker, you're reducing the efficiency both of your mana base and of Sensei's Divining Top, while also removing a recurring beat stick. Krosan Tusker is the most likely candidate, but he's not dead in the early game, whereas the Kamigawa Dragons are. If you instead replace Grave-Shell Scarab or Gigapede, you're going to make a lot of matchups worse. Don't underestimate the power of recurring creatures that are immune to swords. These guys combined give you huge game against a ridiculous number of decks.
@frogboy: The reason not to go to 4 Tops is twofold: First, while a second Top is not technically dead (because of all the shuffle effects) it is certainly not as good as something relevant. 4 Tops will increase the number of mulligans you take, albeit slightly, and decrease the number of answers you will find once Top is active. That's really the second reason right there: adding another Top decreases your relevant card count. There's nothing I would really want to take out for the 4th Top, and I hate seeing a Top on top when I look with Top.
Not running colorless producing lands in a three color deck is one of the ways in which I feel this deck is an improvement over something like Dirt. The problems the deck faces are also unadressed by adding 6cc threats that don't do anything earlier on and aren't that resilent.
The fourth top is a thought, but there's not that much to cut except conceivably the 23rd land or an E. Dragon.
For my confessions, they burned me with fire/
And found I was for endurance made
Ok, instead of arguing throughout like 3 different threads, lets just do it here Jack.
The 61st card is a preference, and I will always run it, so that's that. And the 61st card was the 4th Vindicate. Later on when I ran smother I replaced an E. Dradon with Witness main so that I could still have 4 total. I believe it is the right move, as if I didn't do it then the board would become unbalanced and therefore I would have to cut another card. The reason I played Witness main is that it is essentially any card you already have maindeck.
I also thought about Condemn in the Smother spot, but decided against it. Two main reasons. The first is not as important, but pro white creatures are already dodging swords (Orders instead of shades in deadguy, but that matchups already great), and the more important reason is that they don't have to be attacking. Spot removal is X times better when it can be played whenever. Also, if they know you are playing condemn then they may play differently, Smother doesn't give them that advantage. I didn't board it to deal with Lackey as you may have thought, it takes care of any 2nd turn goblin. Hitting a warchief BEFORE they declare attackers is usually good. Funeral Charm is just not good enough removal. If you are going to play a removal spell, play one that will remove more creatures. Again, this was not a move to kill Lackey, it was to shore up the overall goblin match, which it did very well.
For the record, boarding against Goblins normally looked like this, for me at least,
-4 Vindicate
-4 Duress
-1 Deed
-1 Hymn
-1 Dragon
-1 Tusker
+4 Hierarch
+3 Witness
+2 Infest
+3 Smother
I also have to say that I didn't encounter the problem with going to time that often. It was hard against goblins if you lose game 1 to win games 2 and 3, but other than that it was actually reasonably quick. Compared to my matches I used to have with Wombat, this deck seems to be a bit quicker. I'm not sure what the difference is, but I was fine with most matches.
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