Five colors Lands takes 10th place at last SCG Open.
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=55309
I love it <3
Look the thing is you´re probably right and the version with the spheres is crap. But I prefere to try things out but before labeling them crap. You are just assuming its crap and so do I if I say its not. And I dont say that. I test it, and when I come back with my ass kicked, you can say I said so.Originally Posted by KntrellCL
And about the Totem, I only said I would run it in my E.-Tutor deck now, if I wanted to play that, because there is no punishing fire in it, because I was asked after an UGwb E.-Tutor Lands deck (not after a Punishing Fire list), but I also said that I think the Punishing Fire build is the best right now (I mean thats the reason I played it at GP Strasbourg).
For that 5c Lands list: its cool but I like Gamble way more right now than E.-Tutor (which is the only reason he plays white I think) but thats probably a taste decision.
Has anyone tested playing it with Elspeth Tirel?
It falls in the same category as Jace (except it need WW instead of UU). It is a planeswalker, i.e. non recurable with Academy and can't be protected with Chasm :s
correct. I guess a black/white bitterblossom token deck would be better for it. However, some lands stolen from the 43 deck engine could work with her
Finally acquired a Tabernacle for my 12 Post deck, so my next project is to build Lands, which I've always thought looked fun to play. I'm still unsure about what type of build I want to go with (and I still need a set of Intuitions before I can get serious anyway). I have a few noobish questions, though:
1) How do you decide how many Manabonds to include? The lists seem like they're all over the place.
2) Has anybody ever tried Stensia Bloodhall? It seems like it might be good, since it doesn't require threshhold, hits planeswalkers, doesn't need to loop, and doesn't hurt you. Obviously more mana intensive and doesn't hit creatures though.
3) Has anybody ever tried Nephalia Drownyard? Lands seems slow enough that mill could be reasonable, and you can mill yourself to get Loam stuff.
4) Has anybody ever tried Thespian's Stage? Thinking it could be used for versatility (copying Mazes, Ports, duals, or manlands as needed).
5) Has anybody ever tried Candelabra? In 12 Post, I often use them to double Maze activations. In Lands, seems like you could also use it to double Port activations or for Academy Ruins/EE shenanigans. Worth a slot as a 1x?
1) Between 0 and 2 Manabond is the rule, depending of which and how many tutors you are using.
2) Creeping Tar Pit does the same things for more damages and less mana.
3) Creeping Tar Pit is a better win condition because of 2)
4) Maze tends to go down to 3 with Punishing Fire build. Sure versatility is good, but do we need it? My answer would be no as we already have Tolaria West to find what we need in multiples.
5) Never tried it. If it is just to double Maze or do tricky shenigans, I would again say no. Our artefacts are lock pieces and have high impacts on the game, Candelabra does nothing by its own.
In my last build, before the deathrite era, I played 2 Intuition and 3 Enlightened Tutor, so only played one Manabond. And more like a back-up if for some reason my Explorations would be extirpated or something.
It's definately a card you could cut though, as it's usefulness is pretty random.
A hand like this:
Creeping Tar Pit; Wasteland, Fetch, Loam, Manabond, Maze of Ith, Fetch is pretty godlike.
A hand like this: Forest, Wasteland, Loam, Manabond, Crucible, Engineered Explosives, Intuition feels awkward.
I'm sure you could figure that out by yourself, but giving sample hands tends to give an even better idea of how good/bad a card can be.
Also, unlike Exploration, multiple Manabonds do nothing.
turn one waste.A hand like this: Forest, Wasteland, Loam, Manabond, Crucible, Engineered Explosives, Intuition feels awkward.
turn two manabond w/0 activation, turn three cast loam? seems ok often
Hey guys, i'll play Punishing Fire Lands this weekend on the legacy Regionals, i found out that the Groves + P. Fire adds a lot of consistency to the deck.
Here is my list, i'd be very glad if someone could give some advices since i'm new to the P. Fire list.
// Lands
2 [A] Bayou
1 [LG] The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 [IA] Glacial Chasm
1 [US] Forest (4)
1 [DIS] Ghost Quarter
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
1 [WWK] Creeping Tar Pit
1 [LG] Karakas
3 [FUT] Grove of the Burnwillows
1 [A] Taiga
2 [ON] Tranquil Thicket
1 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
3 [A] Tropical Island
3 [FUT] Tolaria West
3 [DK] Maze of Ith
4 [MM] Rishadan Port
4 [TE] Wasteland
1 [ON] Wooded Foothills
1 [ON] Windswept Heath
1 [WWK] Bojuka Bog
// Spells
3 [TE] Intuition
4 [RAV] Life from the Loam
4 [SH] Mox Diamond
2 [FD] Engineered Explosives
1 [IA] Zuran Orb
4 [US] Exploration
4 [ZEN] Punishing Fire
1 [SH] Ensnaring Bridge
1 [10E] Crucible of Worlds
// Sideboard
SB: 4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
SB: 2 [DS] Trinisphere
SB: 4 [RAV] Dark Confidant
SB: 3 [RTR] Abrupt Decay
SB: 2 [MBS] Phyrexian Revoker
I don't have any Gamble, so i cut the Gambles and Manabounds to add 2 E.E. 1 Crucible of Worlds and the 4th Punishing Fire(i know it's not optimal, but i don't know what to add instead of the 4th one)
The Revokers in the Sideboard is mainly against Show and tell(it Needles Sneak attack, Lotus Petal if needed) but i can bring in against Jace.deck too.
What should i change? or this list is good the way it is now? Thanks in Advance.
Meh.. I think it's mediocre. With that hand you expose yourself to counterspells. A flipped delver with counter back up on loam, or a turn one deathrite predict almost certain death as you can't reliably build a board presence. Well that's atleast my opinion. I'd rather have a 4 card hand with 3 lands and a loam before keeping that hand.
edit: well not that bad but still.. I wouldn't be very pleased :)
I don't there are any 2 mana producing land, one of which is a green source, manabond loam hands that I would complain about. In the hand you posted, most cards are going to be awkward anyway. If you don't think you'll have time to cast the intuition, just manabond, pitch your hand, and start dredging aggressively; your deck is a really high density of lands, especially because you drew so many spells.
In the sideboard, I think you want Sphere of Resistance instead of Trinisphere because it does a bit more against Show and Tell while still being very good against Storm. It also comes down off of Mox+Land, which matters against Belcher-esque decks.
I guess I've just encountered too many problems with those type of hands.
And with Manabond in general. I remember a long time ago I would advocate atleast having 2 Manabond in my deck, but after so many games and tournaments I felt the second was one too many, and often the one would feel bad. I liked it much better in the first versions of 43 lands, when the deck actually had that many lands ;)
manabond is just great con G1. if you drew it o your opening hand is good and it's better when you draw it on late game, recovering each turn you didnt play an extra land per turn.
I dont know why people complain that much. If I have manabond + intuition hand, i would play manabond after playing that intuition... especially if Im on the play. at least, I always play my deck without relying on exploration or diamond, it works just fine one land drop per turn waiting for exploration.
Intuition can take you out from difficult spots and you must cast it with board information for more expected value.
Hey guys!
This is my first post here on The Source although I have been reading this thread (and some others) for a long time.
I have always been a big fan of Lands and I've tried many different cards and iterations of the deck throughout the last years. I have not been able to play as much Legacy as I would have wanted due to the format not being very popular where I live, but still a tournament every now and then in other cities and I have not switched my deck of choice in quite a while.
The past weekend I was very happy to participate in the main event of Bazaar of Moxen in France and I ended up quite well, in 10th place.
Here is the decklist I used:
4 Exploration
2 Manabond
1 Gamble
4 Life from the Loam
3 Intuition
3 Punishing Fire
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Mox Diamond
1 Zuran Orb
1 Academy Ruins
1 Bayou
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Forest
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Glacial Chasm
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Karakas
3 Maze of Ith
1 Misty Rainforest
4 Rishadan Port
1 Taiga
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
3 Tolaria West
2 Tranquil Thicket
3 Tropical Island
1 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
1 Windswept Heath
1 Wooded Foothills
SIDEBOARD:
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Chalice of the Void
1 Crucible of Worlds
4 Dark Confidant
3 Sphere of Resistance
I don't remember all the matches very well so I thought I just post the matchups with results and afterwards commentating on a lot of cards, sideboarding and matchups more in general. Here we go:
Day 1:
R1: Jund 2-0
R2: RIP Miracles 2-0 (Rishadan Port is always king here, in the second game he never played a single spell with cmc2 or greater)
R3: TinFins 0-2 (He made short work of me g1, g2 i held a hand with hate on turn 2 and 3 but i got FTK:ed)
R4: BUG 1-1 (Some sort of control, do not remember now)
R5: RIP Miracles 1-0
R6: Jund 2-1
R7: Jund 2-0
R8: BURG Delver 2-0 (was pretty nervous here since I played vs Florian Koch who had a decktech with this deck on GP Strasbourg where he made top64. Starstruck! He didnt draw optimally though and its a good matchup in general)
R9: BUG Delver 2-0
Day 2: (7-1-1 after day 1)
R10: Sneak & Show 1-1 (managed to win g1 and would have won g3 but didn't have enough time, strange match)
R11: Maverick 2-1
R12: BUG Delver 2-1 (raced him with Creeping Tar Pit + Zuran Orb in g3, was fun, he had already used several Wastelands)
R13: RUG Delver 2-0 (best draws of the tournament for me, my opponent scooped g2 with no permanents in play after some devastating Wastelands and a Tabernacle when there was still 35 min left on the clock)
R14: Elves 1-2 (This is the guy who ended up in 2nd place, not a good matchup for me unfortunately. This match was my way into top8, and his)
R15: Junk 2-1
11-2-2 in total (which netted me a FBB Tropical Island)
First of all, I would like to thank all of you guys who contribute to this thread, without you I would not have dared to try the version with Punishing Fire. The thought of including the combo in Lands has struck me before but I have never really liked it because of all the spots it takes in the deck which in turn reduces our flexibility. And that is why I love this deck so much, we are able to do so many things with it and grind to infinity! :) And the version with Enlightened Tutor has further increased that flexibility. I tried that version in the Last Chance Trial on thursday but did put up horrible results. In addition, Enlightened Tutor was not as good as I wanted it to be. Too many times it was too slow or was just answered with an Abrupt Decay or something similar and I'm not willing to sacrifice that much tempo and cards if it gets answered too often. It's good in the combo matchups but then we can just sideboard an extra hate card or two since winning game 1 is just based on incredible luck anyway. The Ensnaring Bridge and the Crucible of Worlds (in addition to the Pithing Needle I like to play with E. Tutor) gets much worse without the tutor but sacrifices has to be made. In fact, I don't like the Crucible in general so I put it in the board and it might be right to just cut it altogether if you are running Punishing Fire.
The two Manabonds maindeck is awesome! It is very importent to win game 1 one against non-combo matchups since time is often an issue and most matchups become harder postboard (not RUG, lol). I can't stress enough how much you should not cut them :) As have been said many times before, they are not good in multiples so 2 is the right number. The 1-of Gamble is just there to compensate a little bit for the loss of flexibility, in addition I thought for a while if I should run the 4th Grove or the 4th Punishing Fire and Gamble just becomes both of them + the 5th Loam etc. I could stand behind a second copy but it is hard to make cuts, Intuition is so great as well and more reliable, i like the 3/1 split though. I run 61 cards so you can cut the Gamble or the Bojuka Bog to make it 60 if you want.
An other thing I would really like to recommend is the 2nd Explosives maindeck. It's always good and very often crucial for success and its nice to just draw it since there are many many things you want to tutor up with Tolaria West (such a broken card!) anyway, in addition 1 copy sometimes gets randomly exiled and then its nice to have access to the 2nd, this will happen more often now since Explosives is one of your few outs to remove Rest in Peace, exiling the artifact in the process.
Otherwise the main deck is pretty standard, Creeping Tar Pit is super good and I would like a second, maybe replacing the Bojuka Bog which was often irrelevant (though the black mana came in handy a few times). For now, I'll leave it as it is though. Speaking of graveyard hate, to me it seems pretty unnecessary to have some in the board. TinFins is too fast for your 1-of Tormod's Crypt to matter and Dredge is already a very good matchup, so is also more classic Reanimator. For the moment, I would recommend either a main deck Bojuka Bog just for the flexibility (since it can have fringe uses against some creatures and some random cards) or nothing at all.
Ok, now comes something which is very important. Lands players, myself included, have been used to that we have a good matchup against most fair decks. This is really not the case anymore if you run more classic versions in my opinion. Deathrite Shaman is a real threat and its companion Dark Confidant is also very good against us since it helps Jund or whatever to find the answers they need to pierce through our defenses. Actually, the aggro-control decks in general have just become better, though Merfolk is of course still lolstomp. We need an answer and that answer is Punishing Fire! The thing is that the BG decks (and some others) have a really threatening clock WHILE disrupting our main strategy. Even if Rest in Peace is a better card against us than Deathrite Shaman, the deck that runs it main deck does not put out the same amount of pressure, giving us more time to find the Explosives, in addition Explosives for two doesn't blow up Exploration! :) Abrupt Decay is also a problem since it has greatly increased the number of main deck answers to our enchantments and crucial artifacts. The good thing is, Abrupt Decay is very good in our deck as well and I would very much recommend 3 copies in the board. Some people argue that Krosan Grip is better because it only costs green and deals with troublesome expensive artifacts and enchantments. I don't see those expensive permanents that often, what I do see is strong creature decks with lots of disruption. It's so nice to have won game 1 and then sitting back witch access to a lot more removal, letting you able to keep a lot more hands. Don't forget that its one mana cheaper than Krosan Grip as well, that matters a lot. Puninshing Fire and Abrupt Decay have performed really really well together this tournament, that is all I want to say. Blood Moon is an issue but you can still get there almost as easy (it isn't easy in general though) as with Krosan Grip.
This might not be news for some people but the performance of the deck during this tournament really convinced me that this is the current situation. Of course, Lands is somewhat of a metadeck and it can never be run to success in a combo heavy meta, but we will never (never is a powerful word but you get my point) return to those glorious days where everyone played Goblins/Merfolk/RUG/UGx Counterbalance/etc, Deathrite Shaman is too good and he is everywhere right now, together with loads of other good creatures.
Punishing Fire is also a great wincon as well and a superb way of handling planeswalkers. It fits the theme of our deck by being an other card which is impossible to get rid of (except with graveyard hate).
To round out the sideboard, 4 Dark Confidant is industry standard and even if they have become worse due to Abrupt Decay and people nowadays keeping in more removal after sideboard, they are still great and awesome against combo and control. 4 Chalice of the Void is also recommended since they are so good in so many matchups. RUG, different kind of UWx control decks and combo comes to mind but I sometimes like to sideboard in 1 against many decks to tutor for with Tolaria West. It's worse against BUG but still good and i usually sideboard in a few. You can run one less if you play E. tutor. Sphere of Resistance is replaceable but it's so all-around and I don't know anything better except Thalia which is hard to run in the red lists. Trinisphere is too slow in my opinion but I would run 1 in a E. tutor build or perhaps 1 Nether Void instead. 7 anticombo permanents for two mana is pretty sweet though and much more clean. Mindbreak Trap is not for this deck in my opinion, too narrow and you have to keep it in your hand which this deck doesn't like, the same can be said for other non-permanent answers. Try cutting your Crucible and see what you feel, maybe its good to have there, maybe not.
I always sideboard out 2 Intuition, 2 Manabond (because these 2 are bad against graveyard hate) and the 2 lands I need the least. I like keeping in 1 Intuition for the topdecks, it still can be very good vs the "midrange decks". It often comes out though together with another land or the Gamble or some artifact. Glacial Chasm is pretty unnecessary in many matchups as well. Vs combo you sideboard much more but then there are also a lot more obvious cuts to make. I often keep in 1 Maze of Ith though, its often nice to have access to 1 with Tolaria West against most combo decks.
I will finish with a story from one of the matches which I found quite amusing, to compensate a little for the lack of tournament report. In round 5 I played vs UW Miracles and he scooped the first game after 10-15 minutes. The second game was veeeery long. At one point I thought i had the game sealed by playing an Engineered Explosives for 6 (only had 8 mana available in total) but with only 2 colors of mana to play around his Counterbalance and blow it up afterwards together with his Rest in Peace. I mean cmc6 doesn't really exist in UW Miracles so I felt safe right? But then that lucky bastard blindflips his 1-of Terminus that he has kept in!! :) I would never have kept that in if I was him but then again it paid off so who am I to blame? :) We both laughed after our amazement had settled but I was starting to get a little bit nervous since now my Explosives was exiled and he got initiative. I drew an Abrupt Decay a little later, blowing up his Rest in Peace and started Loaming but things didn't look good for me. He got out a Jace and an Elspeth which started to tick up. He ticked up Jace a few times before he started to Brainstorm every turn netting him a card and keeping his only cmc2 on top, a Counterbalance which prevented me from doing anything with my Loam and my Punishing Fire. With 8 minutes left on the clock he had Elspeth up on 8 counters and several tokens into play in addition to Jace on 4 loyalty. For some reason he wanted to fateseal me instead this turn and i knew that he drew his 2-drop every turn because he didn't have Top yet. On my turn I played Loam and he responds with a regular Brainstorm, of course wanting to put back his 2-drop in that way, but that gave me the window to just mow down his walkers with Punishing Fire in response. I didn't kill them, that would have required to much mana, but it bought me a lot of turns. In one of those turns I found an Abrupt Decay for his Counterbalance EoT and then it was over! :) Planeswalkers are no match for Punishing Fire! Big mistake from his part but I was happy! Still cannot believe that hilarious Terminus though :)
Perhaps there has been some redundant information for some of you here, but I wanted to make it enjoyable for everyone.
Thanks for reading! :)
Regards,
Jonas
Last edited by Zynque; 05-15-2013 at 02:02 AM.
That was a very good read and congrats to your awesome performance :)
We just got a hell of an awesome win condition upgrade due to the M14 rules changes:
Dark Depths + Thespian's Stage is now a combo.
So excited.
Indeed it is
But I am not sure I will be playing it because I don't like that both cards do near to nothing individually.
Took me a while to get it: You get a Depths copy without counters, choose to lose the original due to state-based effects and resolve the Marit-Lage trigger on the copy.
Seems neat, will try it. (Makes me a little less pissed about that rules change. ^^) The Stage isn't even totally useless on its own.
Stage/Depths as one-ofs actually does seem pretty strong. May have to put together my 43 Lands again for some testing...
Also, Stage is better on its own than it initially looks, I think, although I can't know without testing. Being able to copy a land in response to Wasteland seems solid in some edge cases, a la Glacial Chasm.
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