Chris, I thought this was an interesting article for a few reasons. You laid out specific examples of what and why to unban specific things, and everybody will have their own opinions on those issues of course.
They should definitely not unban Vampiric Tutor, however, if you seek a balanced format. There would be no reason to play anything other than combo or combo-control if this was available. I'm not positive, but I have a sneaking suspicion that Imperial Seal would do the same thing.
I think there is already a good amount of fast mana available in the format, so I don't see Grim Monolith coming off the list anytime soon, nor something like Mana Vault. I also wouldn't want to see Replenish unbanned either.
Overall, I think your ideas and writing were very clear and concise, and applaud your efforts to encourage others to voice their opinion in a public forum of some sort, and to make their thoughts known to the DCI.
Personally, I never believed in Wizards' assertion that Chaos Orb and Falling Star should be banned because of 'manual dexterity' issues that they have cited. If you can't attempt to flip a Chaos Orb, how can you reasonably be expected to sufficiently shuffle and randomize your deck, and your opponent's deck, multiple times in a game (and match) of Magic? That being said, if I had any say on what would be unbanned, it would probably start with the following:
Chaos Orb
Falling Star
Dream Halls
Mind Over Matter
I think the current Banned list is very well maintained, with those exceptions. BUT, I would like to see what comes out of the new Time Spiral block. There appear to be some very powerful cards coming out that could potentially be degenerate in Legacy, so I'd like to see the impact of those over a couple of months before making any other decisions.
2 articles about Legacy in the same week...wow what is going on!
Nice article, great job educating the limited and standard players about what Legacy is about...
I agree with most of what you said in the article!
Again very nice, we need more people to advertise the format like that to the masses!
Member of team punishment.
Grounding "N" Pounding Canadian legacy players since 2004.
War GSP!
I agree on what JACO had pointed out that with Time Sprial about to come out, its much better to wait and see then have a final decision on B/R list for legacy.
Currently for me legacy looks like standard using old cards, almost all decks are aggro, the amount of control or prison type decks aren't that visible.
Nice article though. I do hope metalworker do get unbanned
Last edited by _erbs_; 09-15-2006 at 03:36 AM.
First off there would be a page and a half of Chaos Orb related rules. Second I will come to tourneys with a magnetic board and magnetic tape to Orb proof my permanents (like people did when Orb was legal). Third Chaos Orb is one of the most broken cards in Magic. If you didn't notice it's not hard to flip and it is basically an artifact version of Vindicate that sometimes hits multiple cards. Oh, and Chaos Orb would cost like $400 a peice if it was legal.Originally Posted by JACO
*Edit* Wow Orb destroys everything it touches (unlike Falling Star which damages everything it lands on) just did an experiment and yeah it's pretty easy to flip it kinda foward and make it slide into multiple cards.
Flames Deleted. Warning. ~ Nightmare
Last edited by Nightmare; 09-15-2006 at 08:49 AM. Reason: Flames
big links in sigs are obnoxious -PR
Don't disrespect my dojo dude...
Sweep the leg!
Yeah, and if there were Chaos Orbs one should use ruler or something to measure if the cards are 1 cm apart or 10 cm apart from each other. But I hope JACO was just joking.. he must be..
Chill, Holmes. He clearly didn't know the reason Orb and Falling Star were banned in the first place. You could have just told him about dexterity cards being banned instead of laying into him.
This is why my friends refuse to post on this site.
While Dontbiteitholmes is clearly overreacting, if your friends are for the unbanning of Chaos Orb, it's just as well. If I had seen this post before you, it would be a non-issue. This is what the "report post" button is for.
Don'tbiteit - There's no reason to flame him. Education is better than insult.
Just read your article, and I found it very well written and educating.
On Vampiric/Imperial tutor being unbanned, my only thought is that these cards are heavily used in Vintage in restricted formats. Granted, they grab better stuff than we have, I just thought maybe the proper baby step would be Demonic Consultation. Did you approach the Vampiric/Imperial route because of comparability to the other Mirage tutors?
I thought it was a logically written article. The analysis of Land Tax is overly optimistic; true control is dependent on land drops, allowing any aggro or aggro control deck in existence to 'counter' Land Tax by simply not dropping their next land until you do. I'd also disagree with the statements about the viability of control, but that seems a little beside the point. It's high time that R&D actually thought about the bannings in Legacy: the vast majority of the cards on that list have never proven themselves broken in a format anything like Legacy. This doesn't mean they should be unbanned all at once, but it's very easy for chicken little reactionaries to respond to every potential unbanning by screaming about how R&D wouldn't have put the ard on there without a good reason.
I would agree with the initial five unbannings. Other considerations that allow for powerful, actual playable, dare I say fun interactions but are unlikely to be truly metagame warping (and if they are, ban them then) would be Metal Worker, Oath of Druids, Worldgorger Dragon, Mind's Desire and Mind Twist.
I also have to mention again that the constant cries of, "Let's not discuss any changes yet; let's wait for such-and-such to happen" are a death-knell to progress. There will always be some new set and some new event on the horizon, yet it is not advisable or desirable to always be standing still waiting for someone to tell you what to do.
For my confessions, they burned me with fire/
And found I was for endurance made
Good Article Chris!
Demonic Consultation is a whole turn faster than Vampiric Imperial. It puts the card right in your hand instead of on top of your library.
I too agree with the initial five unbannings posted. And I also agree with all of the cards Jack has listed besides Mind's Desire. I still think that card is too strong in this format.
Demonic Consultation is much more powerful than vamperic tutor.
The problem with unbanning in legacy is, unlike Vintage, you go from being able to play 0 cards to playing 4.
Some cards that are on the list exist for no reason:
Land tax, Replenish, Mind over Matter, Entomb, etc.
While the others are very big no-nos. I agree with the majority of your list. Vamperic Tutor seems a little too powerful for the current state of the format.
Sexy
If they unbanned Worldgorger and Entomb at once, could we expect Syracuse to actually start playing Magic again?
Pre-empt: Sundering Titan + Reanimate is arguably much more unfair than WGD + Animate Dead, as it never allows for StP, Naturalize, or Stifle to be cheap preventive answers that also incidentally win you the game.
For my confessions, they burned me with fire/
And found I was for endurance made
I understand that funtionally it is, but it sees no play in Vintage where it's legal. I understand that is also puts the card in your hand, just like Spoils of the Vault. My point is, if Vampiric/Imperial Tutor is seeing play in Vintage, why isn't Demonic Consultation? If the answer is it isn't powerful enough, wouldn't that mean that Vampiric/Imperial is more powerful than Consultation?
Legacy is not Vintage, but I wanted to clarify my point. Spoils is functionally more powerful than Vampiric/Imperial; it puts the card in your hand, costs the same, and is an instant, but it only sees minor play in Legacy and no play in Vintage, unless your playing budget.
Anyway, I don't want to turn this into a banned discussion. I was just wanting to hear a little more on why Mechinus chose Vampiric/Imperial over the other tutors.
I can answer this. Demonic Consultation is AMAZING at getting a 4 of into your hand. Demonic Consultation is AWFUL at getting a 1 of into your hand. Vintage Combo decks (the decks that would use Consultation) are so full of 1 ofs that it's nearly impossible to guarantee sucess with Consult, and often you end up either milling yourself to death, or losing enough relevant cards to make wahtever you tutored for irrelevant. In Legacy, on the other hand, Consult becomes Demonic Tutor for 1 mana less, since most decks - even combo - are mostly 4 ofs.
What is in that pipe you smoke?
Sexy
I have to agree with this statement. Cards are always being added to Legacy so this condition will never be satisfied. There will always be a new set that is coming out and it will obviously affect Legacy.
I also agree with the theme of the article and that is that change doesn't necessarily have to be bad. Wizards seems overly concerned that something might go wrong so they just continue to keep the list the same. I'm glad someone from the Legacy community made this point in print. If Wizards isn't going to have any major events for Legacy in the near future then why not take a chance on the B/R list?
If you want to be the tool who carries around a magnetic board to a tournament, that's fine with me. I would still play Chaos Orb and gladly destroy one of your permanents at a time. It is quite like Vindicate, except that it can be Stifled or Pithing Needled, and it requires a degree of skill to flip it correctly (I own a couple of them, and I and other friends test them). The cost of a card is irrelevant, until the DCI decides it has become too great a barrier of entry. With one proper errata Chaos Orb would be perfectly acceptable in a tournament environment, and wouldn't require a page and a half of related rules. Your reasons don't provide an adequate response to why it shouldn't be unbanned.
That aside, why don't you guys actually talk about Chris' article? I don't think it was meant to solely talk about the Banned/Restricted list, but to nudge others to speak their mind, whether it's about the B/R list, or the DCI penalty system (Jack Elgin, I'm looking in your direction), or whatever else.
You would need rules to prevent things like what if your opponent rearranges their cards on the table in reponse, do you need to have a judge measure the hieght you drop it from, what if your opponent makes all of their cards 10 feet apart, or puts them up right next to yours, or stacks them in a pile. Or what if they rip their chaos orb into pieces then sprinkle in on their opponent's cars. Or what if they throw it down at an angle so it touches a bunch of cards as it slides across the table, how the hell do you rule that? There would just be so many rules involved that magic doesn't keep track of, not to mention it could never be done in an online environment. My god this list goes on forever, there is absolutly no way they would ever make these cards tournement legal.
Guys, Oath of Druids would ruin the format. I don't know why any of you would agree with it's unbanning.
KIDS WITH GUNS!
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