I haven't seen anything placed in the threads of late that have covered this list by Robert Vroman. I mean it's not like the other decks in the top 8 of the prelims were unknown. There was threshold and goblins which it had to contend with.
Prelim decks can be found here - http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x...con07-saturday
I know there is a thread on the decks to beat forum that covers life from the loam in all its versions but i think that is a little to vague for a card that has so many decks built around it.
I guess what i don't really understand is how it could placed 1st at the pro tour kobe side event and just get called a pile and forgotten. Now it shows it has some worth in something a little different and new and no one seems to care.
for reference, this is the list:
-------------------------------------------
4 Tranquil Thicket
4 Windswept Heath
4 Mishra's Factory
2 Wasteland
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Plateau
3 Savannah
1 Bayou
2 Taiga
22 lands
4 Jotun Grunt
4 Children of Korlis
4 Eternal Witness
1 Genesis
1 Viridian Zealot
14 creatures
4 Mox Diamond
2 Words of Wilding
4 Sylvan Library
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Devastating Dreams
4 Life from the Loam
1 Gamble
1 Ancient Grudge
2 Pyroclasm
1 Exploration
26 other spells
Sideboard
4 Sphere of Resistance
2 Pyroclasm
2 Maze of Ith
1 Ray of Revelation
1 Ancient Grudge
2 Pyroblast
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
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what do you guys think of this deck? is it worth looking into and developing?
it seems like it had some good answers to several decks in the format, but only testing will prove that. Before i throw it together and start tinkering around with it, i just wanted to get the ball rolling.
slobad23
You may not like the other thread, but it contains several LftL-based decks that are more refined than this list looks to be.
Honestly, discussing this deck is largely pointless without Vroman here. Why isn't he running Burning Wish? What are the purposes of the singletons? Is Children of Korlis somehow not terrible? These are questions that nobody else can answer, unless they've done extensive testing with this specific list.
If you ask me, I think the deck is simply suboptimal, and that Vroman made Top 8 in the GenCon prelims on the back of his skill and a mountain of Threshold decks. He didn't win it, though; Jason Jaco knocked him out in the quarters.
Originally Posted by nitewolf9
For the record, this deck looks a whole lot more coherent than the Kobe one did. I rather like it. The Children + Library interaction is especially cute.
SummenSaugen: well, I use Chaos Orb, Animate Artifact, and Dance of Many to make the table we're playing on my chaos orb token
SummenSaugen: then I flip it over and crush my opponent
Thank Vroman.
Also Library with the Words enchantments means 3 colorless for 3 bears (or 6 damage or 15 life, if using other colors), which seems good also.
And with life from the loam, it dredges a lot of cards....
Just one question : where are the tarmogoyfs ?
Seriously, there is no way this deck should not be running 'goyfs.
TEAM DRAGONFORCIA-
Ghost ridin' the whip like we invented that shit.
TEAM UNICORN
We're going for number four!
I'm not an expert on the matter, but it would appear that all goyf does is turn sideways. In a deck packed to the brim with utility, that seems a bit lackluster, especially when there are already several efficient kills in the deck.
Then again, I think I remember seeing vroman post about the possibility of cutting red for goyfs, geddons, and other stuff. Likely needs testing.
BZK! - Storm Boards
Been there, tried that, still casting Doomsday.
Drawing my deck for 0 mana since 2013.
To clarify, Vroman did not win the Legacy Prelim. He finished in the 7th/8th slot, because I beat him in the top 8 playing my UBW TrinketTop deck, and then I eventually lost to eventual Prelim-winner Alex Hatfield, who piloted UGR Threshold to win the 2 byes.
A few people actually did take the time to look at and work on improving the PT Kobe Loam list, which functions totally different than Vroman's original deck, and mainly seeks to abuse the interactions between cards such as Life From the Loam, Devastating Dreams, Smallpox, Seismic Assault, Mox Diamond, Exploration, etc. The problem is that most of the people's suggestions to improve the deck sucked, and the deck itself is fairly unfocused, when it can be very powerful with the spells at hand. Luis Scott Vargas, who is a pretty good Pro, piloted a similar version of the PT Kobe deck to a 1st place finish at a larger Eudomania Legacy tourney (may have been a qualifier; I can't remember).
As for Vroman's deck construction, he said it was supposed to be 60 cards, but due to a deck registration error, he had to include 2 Pyroclasm, which he said he would now add to the deck because he liked them. So then, let's look at Vroman's updated GenCon Championship list (a few cards different from the Prelim), and we'll examine a few of the interactions.The things that Vroman's deck shared with the PT Kobe list are as follows:
- Life From the Loam with cycling lands, recouping lands pitched to Mox Diamonds, and accelerating with Exploration
- after dredging much of your deck you can play the Eternal Witness game, bringing back cards repeatedly with Genesis and/or Volrath's Stronghold
It's about there that the similarities end. Aside from the aforementioned synergies, look at these interactions of Vroman's deck:
- Sylvan Library & Children of Korlis combine to Ancestral every turn without paying any life once Genesis is going, and Words of Wilding (previous was Words of War) can end the game very quickly at this point, or once you have Life From the Loam going with some lands in play
- Jotun Grunt helps beat down with a big body if an aggro approach is needed, helps put useful goodies back into the deck, and ensures that you won't deck yourself
These things being said, what would you change about the deck? I know personally I would want to add 4 Burning Wish and 2 Solitary Confinement if I was keeping it GRW. So to spur the conversation, my question for everyone interested is two-fold:
1) What changes would you make if keeping it GRW (for example, -xx +yy)
2) What changes would you make if cutting the Red and making it GW?
PS. Can a mod change this thread name to Vroman Loam.dec or something actually useful?
Find me on Twitter at @JMJACO and @EternalCentral. If you have an interest in Vintage Eldrazi, check out my book Eldrazi Meditations.
Tarmogoyf stops Tarmogoyf from beating you in the face. Also it beats the other guy in the face. Hard. For 2. And dredging makes him pretty big pretty quickly. He survives Dreams too. He's just so good.
You're right, it needs testing. But nowadays my first reaction to anything running green tends to be "Needs 'goyf!"
TEAM DRAGONFORCIA-
Ghost ridin' the whip like we invented that shit.
TEAM UNICORN
We're going for number four!
I can think of a reason not to include Tarmogoyf: Jotun Grunt. In a Loam shell like this it may often hit play on turn 2.
You play Tarmogoyf, Opponent plays Tarmogoyf => stalemate. Whoever draws spot removal first, wins. Oh wait, you're only playing 4 slots of spot removal and keep dredging it away. Not good.
You play Grunt, Opponent plays Tarmogoyf => Grunt consumes Goyf. You beat, he doesn't. At some time, Devastating Dreams for 3 will kill it. Also, 1/1 Mongeese? Why care?
You play Grunt and Tarmogoyf => Your opponent laughs at the tiny size of your Goyf while burning it away.
Need i mention Ichorid/Breakfast matchups?
Team SPOD[23:08:50] <@Anusien> You want me to actually test?
[23:09:02] <frogboy> I thought you already had
This deck looks like a worse version of Columbus Confinement. Go check that thread out and try that deck. Exploration as a one of?
Why bother with creautures at all? Humility is amazing in a deck with man lands, especially when running Seismic Assault.
No Burning Wish is just stupid.
Now playing real formats.
Those are different decks. Columbus Confinement is a control deck, this is aggro. CC has a wish toolbox, this draws 3 cards per turn. CC runs Humility and wins with manlands, this runs Devastating Dreams and wins with Grunt. What they have in common: A resolved Seismic Assault with Loam online wins the game. Right now.
I'm also not quite sure about those one ofs (Gamble and Exploration, i can see Ancient Grudge being useful obv). Without testing, I would cut the Pyroclasms and Exploration for a total of 4 Gamble slots. Exploration should not be that important, the curve is quite low as you're not running a Wish toolbox.
Solitary Confinement + Sylvan Library = sevitch dysynargy. At maximum in the sideboard. As stated above I also believe Wish to be too mana intensive with only 4 Diamonds as acceleration.
Team SPOD[23:08:50] <@Anusien> You want me to actually test?
[23:09:02] <frogboy> I thought you already had
CC runs Devestating Dreams and has Burning Wish to find it and Loam. I dont see how Sylvan Lib is better. Confinement just seems like a no brainer.
This is also a control deck. Just because it plays an out of place 4/4 beater doesnt make it fast enough to be aggro. I dont see the point in building off the Loam Engine unless your designing a control deck prepared to abuse the late game card advantages.
Now playing real formats.
In this thread: http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5013 I found only one list including Devastating Dreams, seems like almost nobody wanted to play it. Maybe you want to post a Confinement list including Dreams.
You're right, this is not aggro, I've expressed myself in a wrong way. It's way more aggro than CC, this is want I wanted to say. In general it's an aggro-control deck using two card-advantage producing engines (Loam and Library).
On another thought: Are 4 Cycling lands really enough? In testing it seemed to few.
Team SPOD[23:08:50] <@Anusien> You want me to actually test?
[23:09:02] <frogboy> I thought you already had
I definitely play tarmagoyf in the deck now.
I dont play burning wish bc I dont like tutors in non-combo, and it weakens the sideboard considerably. playing tutors against control is terrible. you have to pay twice for your best spells, and they still get countered. raw draw power is superior in this archetype.
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