I posted this on mutliple legacy sites/sections because I feel the topic is worth discussion.
If you play an established deck, you are able to pilot something proven that has a high power level. You can also usually get by making mistakes with more established decks, as they tend to be forgiving. Goblins is a great example of this.
Going an established deck route has obvious cons associated with it. The biggest being that your maindeck and sideboard are known to the general public. Even with a few tweaks, any good player will be able to rattle off everything you play with close to 100% accuracy. Due to this, people often know how to play against establish decks and have specific hate associated for those decks, depending on its given popularity. In a degernerate format, this won't matter because all the hate in the world won't stop a broken deck. Old type 2/affinity is the best example. Luckily, the days of one broken deck ruining a format seem to be behind us, which is more good than bad for someone who plays an established deck in legacy. The format is wide open with lots of decks, meaning less chances to be hated against. If you do get paired up against someone with exceptional hate for your specific deck, then that could be a problem. Generally speaking, players of established decks don't need to worry about that because they are in the driver's seat. People have to react to whatever tier one deck they're playing, and the chances to beat out the hate increase significantly when it's a good player piloting a good deck.
Me? I choose to go rogue, at least when legacy is concerned. Going with an unknown archtype has obvious benefits, the biggest being people often dismiss whatever you're running and don't give it a second thought if they've never seen it played in the format before. When registering my deck in the open for The Mana Leak, I heard/saw multiple people laughing and rolling their eyes as they walked by while I laid out scab clan maulers and fireblasts.
This was great for me. If people have it in their heads that certain archtypes are unplayable, they traditionally will play worse against it than if it were an established archtype. I've won multiple matches off this principle alone, and it's certainly the biggest reason to 'go rogue.'
Another big advantage for rogue is the 'unknown' factor. People are unsure of what is coming at them often times with a rogue deck, so even if they respect what they are up against, they will usually have a tough time playing against unknown cards. Espcially if the rogue player is gunning for particular established decks.
Disadvantages for going rogue are plenty. A common problem for rogue deckbuilders is that they often have to hedge their bets when piloting a specific rogue deck. You can prepare for some tier one decks, but usually not all of them. Traditionally, the decks with the best odds against tier 1 decks are other tier 1 decks. This is where metagame peditictions come in big for a rogue pilot. They can play a specific unestablished deck for a given tourney if they feel the matchups expected to show up are favorable.
The obvious problem with this is that format is so open, so you have to either realllllly be sure that a large portion of a specific archtype is showing up, or you just cross your fingers and hope things fall your way. Roland's UG madness is a good example of this. He knew the deck inside and out, he had a solid list, and he knew what his bad matchups were. One of his worst was goblins, and although that's a very popular deck, if he never faces it his odds of winning increase dramatically. It's a risk he was willing to take. The result? He never played against it, he won legacy worlds. The coinflip of this is that now his list is known, and people can now play better against it and prepare for it due to the massive press he received.
Of course many people go rogue so they can play their beloved deck, whatever it may be. People love their petcards. For some people it's Aquamoebas, others its Kird Apes. The point is that rogue players often don't care about their odds, they just want to play with their cards regardless of outcome.
The majority of competitive players go with established archtypes because they don't care about playing with specific cards. They just want to win. That's perfectly respectable, and often leads to good results. Just realize that this in turn causes rogue decks to be viable. Hence, it's all cyclical.
In conclusion, you really should play with what works for you. Don't play an established deck just because it's established,but also don't play a rogue deck just because it's unknown. Figure out what you're comfortable with and why you want to play in a specific tourney. That always leads to the best results.
- Dave Feinstein
9/19 Legacy for a Lotus! http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...cy-for-a-Lotus!
One pro for playing an established deck is that they work... They are established decks for a reason.
That is certainly one of my favorite reasons to "go Rogue". I especially enjoy playing with excessive amounts of white bordered cards to enhance that effect even further, when I'm piloting a Rogue deck. My Zoo deck contains no foils and all white bordered land except fetchlands. The Kird Apes are Revised, as are the Lightning Bolts (well, 2 are unlimited).Originally Posted by Dxfiler
On the flip side of that coin is my "established deck", which is becoming more and more "pimped" by the week. Foils, Foriegn Black Borders, Portal, Foil Unhinged Islands. The only white borders in the deck are the trops and tundras which I would love to replace with French black borders.
While I was typing I thought of one huge con when it comes to playing a rogue deck...the alomost complete lack of others who play the deck to discuss strategy with. You end up going completely alone with many decisions on card inclusions. It's much safer to jump on the bandwagon and play the tier one decks...especially in a subculture that sterotypically lacks individuals with self confidence.
When other people do not assert themselves, they may still have something to be proud of, something that they believe is unrivalled, but it is just that they have not got the same vulgarity of throwing their weight about and imposing themselves and their beliefs on other people. - Dunduzu Kalui Chisiza
If you think a topic is dumb, don't add to it. Pretty simple. - Bardo
A very good post indeed.
One question though: Doesn't the advantage of going rogue diminish when a smart opponent can figure out what you play?
After all, the "playable card pool" isn't as big (this is even more true in Vintage) and most rogue strategies have similarities to Tier1 decks.
For example your RG Beats deck was rogue, but a clever opponent might figure out pretty quickly your aggro-gameplan and the contents of your deck, allowing to plan accordingly.
An interesting point to playing rogue decks also entails that if the rogue decks are good enough, then they could easily (with time) become a tier 1 deck. Damn, I'm so cool (just figured I'd throw that in there). A notable "rogue" deck that lost the "rogue" classification is, obviously, Solidarity. As I continued to win with the deck and other people started to pick it up and play it, it lost the "rogue" status and coincidentally also became tier 1. Again, damn, I'm cool. Just figured that would be an interesting point.
For the foreseeable future, expect to see less of me. I've lost my internet connection, and so I'll only be able to get on by siphoning free Wi-Fi from the surrounding areas. Which isn't always consistent.
Plus, the guy that I used to leech off of has now instituted password protection. This means that I effectively do not have internet at home. :(
God damn you are fucking lame.
You're just jealous that nobody likes RGBSABWMF2K6FTW. Everybody hates that deck. Jerkface.
For the foreseeable future, expect to see less of me. I've lost my internet connection, and so I'll only be able to get on by siphoning free Wi-Fi from the surrounding areas. Which isn't always consistent.
Plus, the guy that I used to leech off of has now instituted password protection. This means that I effectively do not have internet at home. :(
That's freaking hilarious.
I agree with Dave, I love rogue, and play nothing but rogue. If I have to resort to someone else's decklist to win in competitive magic, there is no longer a reason for me to play the game.
Another point is that its not always someone elses decklist. I mean you say Threshold, and there are a million ways you can take that deck. Ive seen Thresh with and without Mental Notes, Thresh decks in every color, Thresh with and without fatties, Hell, Thresh with Isochron Scepters! They're all very different, but they all fall under the term "threshold". A Lot of established deck names are pretty umbrella terms. I mean look at Goblins. You ask a kid what deck he's playing and he says Goblins. Does he pack StP? Or does he maindeck Hooligan for Needle hate? Or is he staying Mono Red? Does he play Lightning Bolt? Not every deck is the same. Hell theres 3 different kinds of decks when you mention Threshold, Goblins, or Affinity. Not to mention the countless other deck archetypes. Survival? Oh man I get a headache thinking of the different kinds of Survival decks. Half the fun of Legacy is that EVERY deck has a unique way to take it.
Team Solo
Anyone know how many Dave Gearharts it takes to screw in a lightbulb?
Just 1, he holds the lightbulb stationary and the world revolves around him.
Amen! But you can't blame him. All Combo players are arrogent assholes when they win on their opponents turns
Team Solo
That's true but if you look at it another way, let's say your opponent played a first turn Mountain into Vial or fetch Tropical into Cantrip you can name almost half of their deck immediately so the few metagame slots aren't that important. I know against your deck they could mean everything but you could also get a huge advantage simply by knowing what some of their keycards are.
Another point that wasn't discussed yet is sideboarding against rogue decks. Of course some of them suffer splashdamage (like Reanimator at the moment) but who runs much artifact hate these days? A good Affinity or Stax deck could easily win some tournaments before everyone starts packing the Energy Fluxes and stuff again.
"Anybody want some . . . toast?" —Jaya Ballard, Task Mage
I think what should be kept in mind is that while running something unknown can be an advantage, that doesn't outweigh playing worse cards. A "rogue" deck should be one that is designed with good cards and a good strategy in mind, and maximizes the synergies between your less played cards and the rest of your deck. Playing bad cards because your opponent won't know how to play against them is a poor idea. And, playing an old deck that can't compete anymore isn't going rogue, its not being able to let go of the fact that its' time has come and gone. Examples include stompy, mono red sligh, burn, enchantress, ect.
An optimized list is another pro to playing an established deck. Goblins, Threshold, Solidarity, IGG have all been tested and played extensively by their creators/supporters and their work on the deck is unveiled with every new tournament. Playing a "rogue" deck that you've thrown together, with little to no testing rests a lot of the burden on your skills as a player, whereas you can maximize your skills playing something that is proven to work.
So can RG Beats, but they typically are very mellow, nice to hang around people.Amen! But you can't blame him. All Combo players are arrogent assholes when they win on their opponents turns
"Good, bad, I'm the guy with the gun." --Ash
Thats the humbleness that comes with losing so often.
Holy shit, are you still alive? I thought you died in February. I must've been checking all the tournament top 8's wrong or something. I had also heard you went to Honolulu, but I stopped checking the player roster and lost hope around the time I got to the 0-X bracket and still hadn't seen your name. Anyway, good to know. I'm glad you're coming back out of retirement apparently.
For my confessions, they burned me with fire/
And found I was for endurance made
Hey, this is awesome coming from the guy who CAN'T top 8 at another event for the next 2 years. Good job jerkface.
For the foreseeable future, expect to see less of me. I've lost my internet connection, and so I'll only be able to get on by siphoning free Wi-Fi from the surrounding areas. Which isn't always consistent.
Plus, the guy that I used to leech off of has now instituted password protection. This means that I effectively do not have internet at home. :(
Your lucky you aren't sitting across from him.
Even when they don't win on their opponents turn. Ofcourse getting wrecked by Gro or Red Death puts them in their place.Amen! But you can't blame him. All Combo players are arrogent assholes when they win on their opponents turns
It's when they beat Gro or Red Death that makes them arrogant.
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