[Deck] CounterSliver 2.0 (MeatHooks.dec)

[Pinder]

First let me start off by giving props where props are due; Major props to Maverick676, my initial cohort for concieving the vague idea that would eventually turn into what you see here, and to Volt for his incredible help tuning the deck after it hit the forums, and for his rigorous playtesting against Solidarity and Thresh to provide data that Mav and I didn't have.Oh, and for writing at least half of this goddamn primer. How did I forget that? Also props to xsockmonkeyx, Klaan, Durahan, Hanni, and everyone else that posted in the N&D thread. And super special awesome props to kicks_422, for coming up with the best deck name evar, and to Togit460 for remaining a stalwart fan in spite of the 25 pages of junk that was the N&D threadh. If I forgot anyone(else), flame me and I'll edit this post (again) .

With all the rapid changes we've been making to the list recently, the best place to go for new info is honestly the last couple of pages. The list below is a close approximation to where we're at right now, but isn't anything concrete.

Latest Developments:

• Pinder needs to update this post more.

Last Updated 2/12/07

//Land (18)
4 Tundra
4 Tropical Island
4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
1 Windswept Heath
2 Island
1 Plains

//Creatures (19)
4 Crystalline Sliver
4 Muscle Sliver
4 Sinew Sliver
4 Plated Sliver
3 Winged Sliver

//Spells (23)
4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
3 Daze
4 StP
4 Brainstorm
4 Serum Visions

note: In recent pages there have been variations of Slivers including a build with Survival of the Fittest, a 4 color build, and a 3 color UWb build. I'm choosing to focus on UWg for the time being, but if you want to test or tweak those lists, they can be found between pages 35-38. Hopefully I'll narrow that down somewhat and eventually post links, but for now you'll just have to wade through those pages because I'm lazy.

[The Lotus Eater]

I think Sidewinder Sliver should replace Plated Sliver and/or Talon Sliver.

The great thing about Sidewinder Sliver is that the ability that they grant is not redundant, like almost every other sliver. Flanking stacks. Your attacking creatures that give -2/-2 to any creature that blocks them is great for killing those pesky River Boas and any other regenrater you may come across. Also, Sidewinder Sliver costs one less mana to play than Talon Sliver.

[freakish777]

Have you considered adding Red (yes I realize the mana base would be atrocious)? Hunter Sliver + Spined Sliver/Sidewinder Sliver are rediculous in aggro matches (Spined Slivers stack as well). I think the strongest reason to include Vial would be to accomodate a more spread out mana base to allow for Hunter Sliver to destroy opposing problem creatures (Specter, Bob, Werebear before Thresh, MMage, most tap creatures before they come out of summoning sickness, etc).

[Volt]

I think Sidewinder Sliver should replace Plated Sliver and/or Talon Sliver.

Been there, had that conversation. It has been considered and tested. Flanking has no defensive value whatsoever. Plated Sliver blocks Goblin Lackey and lives. Sidewinder Sliver dies to Mogg Fanatic and lets Goblin Lackey through. That's reason enough to play Plated over Sidewinder.

Have you considered adding Red (yes I realize the mana base would be atrocious)?

You should have stopped right there, and said "Oh. Never mind."

[The Rack]

Great job on the primer by the way. Great deck, great idea, great guys! Have you considered Voidslime in here? Seems out of the blue but I'm curious to see the reactiopns to this.

[Tosh]

The problem with voidslime is the same as counterspell: the mana. Stifle is great because it costs 1 but counterspell often holds you back from playing better things just because they might play something next turn. This same argument can be applied to voidslime.

[Pinder]

Klaan is right. The reason we'd run Stifle over Voidslime is because it's cheap and effective. If Stifle costed 2U, you can bet your ass that 1) We probably wouldn't have considered it in the first place and 2) That we'd run Voidslime over it in a second. But since it costs 1, and we already have slightly more free counterspells, Stifle is the goodness.

As to splashing red for Spined/Hunter Sliver, etc. that would be great...if the deck could support it. Right now the most this deck can support is 3 colors on 17 land, and even that's pushing it a fair bit. You'd have to cut a color. Crystalline is UW, so both of those have to stay in, and the only color you can cut reasonably is Green. Of course, this means you can't add Spined Sliver anyway, and IMO Muscle > Hunter (duh). If you look closely, Muscle Sliver is the only green spell in the deck. If he's important enough to splash a third color for, odds are he's sticking around.

As to the Sidewinder vs Plated debate, Sidewinder belongs in a far more aggressive deck than this. Durahan and I drummed up a RGW list a while back during this deck's development to see how it would work, and it was pretty decent. Sidewinder Sliver + Two Headed Sliver + Spined Sliver +Talon Sliver = Your 1/1 walking into a fight with 2 3/3s and living to tell about it. Honestly it was great, but the susceptability to targeted removal and the lack of counter and draw made it not nearly as competitive as CounterSliver.

If you can prove us wrong about the manabase, though, go ahead. We'd love to have a fourth color if we can support it. But for now we'll keep it to UGW.

[xsockmonkeyx]

I posted this argument pretty late into the N&D thread but Im reposting it here because this issue is still unresolved and under debate.

1) Forest helps, but is not necessary

Obviously, the basic lands are there to fight nonbasic land hate. Anticipating a Wasteland flood, Waste-lock, Back to Basics with no counter or removal, etc, your course of action would to be play basic island, basic plains, then another basic island(hence i run 2 island 1 plains). If you need any futher mana to double cantrip, play a muscle sliver, counterspell, EE for 3, etc, you can just fetch it out or play it from your hand without regret because it is somewhat expendable. When you are in trouble you need blue and white for counter and removal, but not green because this deck doesnt run any green answers.

.:Blue>White>>>Green :: Island>Plains>>>Forest


2) Flooded Strand is your MVP (MVL?)

For all the reasons I just went over Flooded Strand is your MVP. It can fetch any dual (read any color), OR a basic Plains OR a basic Island Windswept Heath fetches any color, plains, and forest (not not basic island). Polluted Delta gets any dual except Savannah and basic island.

.: Flooded Strand>Windswept Heath>Polluted Delta*

*If I didnt run the Savannah then Polluted Delta>Windswept Heath because it has one more island than plains to target in the deck.


3) 1x Savannah is a relatively powerful singleton.

There have been times (few albeit) when Ive wanted to fetch for a Savannah and if i dont have one in the deck then Im shit out of luck. The 1x is powerful because its only one card and playing that 1 in the deck is kind of like playing ~7 because Heaths and Strands both fetch it. Also, the Savannah is benign. Ive hardly ever top decked it wishing that it was a Trop. Also Savannah is nice with the sideboard as its another white source for your hate, which tends to be on the white/green side.



Here are my lands again for reference:

4 Flooded Strand
2 Windswept Heath
1 Savannah
3 Tropical Island
4 Tundra
2 Islands
1 Plains

IMO 2 Island + 1 Plains > 1 Island, 1 Plains, and 1 Forest. The Savannah however is still debatable and probably requires more testing before I can give it a definitive thumbs up.


Discuss !!

[kicks_422]

No love for the guy who named the deck?

Anyway, I still haven't gotten around to writing the tourney report with this deck... In summary, I beat my Dryad Sligh deck which I lent to a friend, UGW Thresh, R/g Goblins, Blue Stax, and Iggy Pop 2-0 in the finals... I'm having great success with the deck... Too bad I don't really own the cards, I just borrowed them...

[Volt]

Major props to kicks_422 for coming up with the deck name, Meat Hooks, which we all came to love. Twenty lashes with a wet noodle to you, Pinder!

[Kronicler]

Excellent job on this deck to anyone and everyone involved, it looks awesome. Just wondering, has any testing been done against U/G Madness? Where I live U/G Madness has a huge following, and I would love to know how it matches up. Also, has any testing been done in regards to throwing in a Jitte or 2? While I understand that this deck is of a defensive nature I think we all know how useful Jitte can be.

Once again, props to everyone on the awesome deck.

Kronicler

[xsockmonkeyx]

Also, has any testing been done in regards to throwing in a Jitte or 2? While I understand that this deck is of a defensive nature I think we all know how useful Jitte can be.

Crystal Sliver pretty much kills your equipment plans, thats the only downside to the thing as far as im concerned.

[Kronicler]

Ah, forgot 'bout that. Guess Jitte will have to sit on the bench for this deck.

[DarkAkuma]

Personally, I find the attempt to give a old established deck type a new lame name offensive. I've had my Counter Sliver deck for awhile now. Its just a few (better) cards different then yours, and I would hate it if people started calling it that retarded name.

But anyway, to help with the thread. I know from he other thread that Impulse was disscussed some. But you dont have that listed even in the "cards not included" section.

I personaly find i like access to more draw then Brainstorm and Serum Visions. From your build, id probly make the follwing choices.

-4 Stifle
-3 Plated Sliver
-1 Talon Sliver

+4 Meddleing Mage
+4 Impulse

Stifle just doesent need to be main, Plated Sliver is just a weak card takeing up space in the deck, despite being a answer for first turn lackey. And well, Talon Sliver is nice, but I guess just not worth much in multiples (besides just being a sliver). I know people will have a hard time with maindecking mage, cause of the newbie in them saying "But he's not a sliver!". But even if it doesent get the sliver benifits, it doesnt hurt the deck in the slightest, since hes more powerful then. Counter Sliver doesent need to be a theme deck. Winning is more important.

But I guess I should point out, that I dont have Goblins in my meta. Just everything else. So my card choices may reflect that, and infact the choices that have been made by the contributers to this more current build of Counter Sliver, may be more appropriate to a meta with goblins.

[Kronicler]

I definately disagree and think you need to be a bit less hostile, lol. Pinder already went over how valuable plated and talon sliver are and I think replacing 4 cheep, useful counters with 4 MORE cantrips is a poor choice.

Kronicler

p.s. how in god's name does your meta not have any goblins in it...

[Volt]

Personaly, I find the attempt to give a old established deck type a new lame name, offencive. I've had my Counter Sliver deck for awhile now. Its just a few (better) cards different then yours, and I would hate it if people started calling it that retarded name.

But anyway, to help with the thread. I know from he other thread that Impulse was disscussed some. But you dont have that listed even in the "cards not included" section.

I personaly find i like access to more draw then Brainstorm and Serum Visions. From your build, id probly make the follwing choices.

-4 Stifle
-3 Plated Sliver
-1 Talon Sliver

+4 Meddleing Mage
+4 Impulse

Stifle just doesent need to be main, Plated Sliver is just a weak card takeing up space in the deck, despite being a answer for first turn lackey. And well, Talon Sliver is nice, but I guess just not worth much in multiples (besides just being a sliver). I know people will have a hard time with maindecking mage, cause of the newbie in them saying "But he's not a sliver!". But even if it doesent get the sliver benifits, it doesnt hurt the deck in the slightest, since hes more powerful then. Counter Sliver doesent need to be a theme deck. Winning is more important.

But I guess I should point out, that I dont have Goblins in my meta. Just everything else. So my card choices may reflect that, and infact the choices that have been made by the contributers to this more current build of Counter Sliver, may be more appropriate to a meta with goblins.

Thanks for your comments, I guess.

You're going to have a hard time talking us into taking Stifle completely out. It's just so helpful in so many ways. Sometimes you win a game simply by stifling a fetch-land on the first or second turn. We've been playing with them in this deck for quite a while now, and we love them. Every time we even cut them to 3, we end up going back up to 4.

While Plated Sliver is kind of meh by itself, it becomes quite good in combination with other slivers. And it's not just good against Goblins. 1st turn Plated, 2nd turn Muscle is a pretty decent clock against combo. Also, once you have a couple of other slivers in play, Plated Sliver becomes a better topdeck than most of the other slivers, because it only costs 1, yet comes into play with the same P/T and abilities as all the other slivers already in play (except -1/-1 compared to Crystalline).

[Togit460]

Not that I contributed a ton to the discussion, but I've watched and read every page and am even working on memorization. Put me in the Huge Fan section please Pinder!

Also congratulations on your child finally taking it's first steps into the legacy meta. The question is will people play it enough to move it from this forum up to LMF?

[freakish777]

//Land
3 Tundra
3 Tropical Island
1 Savannah
1 Volcanic Island
2 Flooded Strand
2 Windswept Heath
2 Wooded Foothills
1 Plains
1 Island
1 Forest
1 Mountain

//Creatures
4 Crystalline Sliver
4 Muscle Sliver
3 Plated Sliver
3 Hunter Sliver
2 Spined Sliver/Sidewinder Sliver

//Spells
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
3 Stifle
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
2 Serum Visions
2 Aether Vial
3 Engineered Explosives


This essentially was what I was thinking with the red splash for Hunter Sliver. Hunter Sliver shifts the focus off of flying with Winged Sliver in the aggro match, and onto killing your opponents creatures. +1 land and +2 Vials smooth out the deck being able to hit the colors its needs as well as shifting around the fetches to include Wooded's.

Again, this is just a "did you consider this" suggestion, not a "this way is totally optimal you should listen to me." Having played with Hunter Sliver, I know that most aggro player's point their removal at Muscle Sliver and then it (assuming Crystalline isn't down) due to it creating absurdly one sided positions.

You shouldn't cut Blue Green or White as Crystalline forces blue and white and Muscle forces green (and those are the 2 best slivers in the game). I just think that a red splash would be worthwhile regardless of stretching the mana base. Vial here isn't about explosiveness (as it is in Goblins, we have no Ringleader), it's about color fixing, uncounterability, and the occassional early advantages it can create (either through you're opponent pitching FoW or due to getting hands that allow you to drop two 2cc slivers in back to back turns while still optimizing BStorm and playing Serum Visions).

[Bardo]

FYI. Entries are due by this Friday. 10 am, Pacific Time.

[Volt]

FYI. Entries are due by this Friday. 10 am, Pacific Time.

Hmm. Thanks, Bardo. I think I see a submission coming your way. Pinder?

Six
Five
Four
Default