[Deck] UWb Fish

[Hanni]

Prologue

I'd like to begin by saying that I've been playing magic since I was in 6th grade and a junior in college now. I've only played casual magic off and on throughout the years until recently. I came back to the game about 10 months ago and started by playing on Apprentice at magic-league with my old U/W Rebel Go (or Counter Rebel) deck. After getting beaten a few times by some really good decks, I decided to try and make the deck competitive. I did alot of research, starting with the Legacy tournament reports on wizards.com (GP Lille and Philly). I was really interested in two decks: Threshold and BW Deadguy. Throughout tremendous playtesting and tweaking, I came up with a relatively solid list, consisting of 4 Ramosian Sergeant and 4 Whipcorder as the decks only Rebels. I splashed black into it for Dark Confidant, Duress, and Vindicate, and the deck became UWb Rebels.

I stopped playing magic again for a while and when I came back, the Cold Snap patch was available for Apprentice but the expansion had not yet been released. I seen Jotun Grunt and immediately knew that it had to be in the deck... in the maindeck. I replaced the Rebels with Jotun Grunt and Stormscape Apprentice. The deck was no longer UWb Rebels, it was UWb Fish.

I stopped using Apprentice and started using MWS for playtesting.

After more extensive playtesting and tweaking over the course of a few months, I came up with the current list a few weeks ago. There are some similar versions of this decklist floating around, although I believe mine was the first posted. There are a few different directions that the deck can go in, but I've tried just about everything for this deck, and I my current list has given me the best results so far.

I'm calling this deck Hanni Fish just to differentiate it from the other UWb decks that are roaming around but that's just a name (for this decklist) and the deck is essentially Fish. Anyway, here's the deck:

UWb Fish

Lands (17)
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
3 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
1 Island
1 Plains
1 Swamp

Creatures (18)
3 Mother of Runes
3 Jotun Grunt
2 Serra Avenger
4 Meddling Mage
4 Dark Confidant
2 Shadowmage Infiltrator

Spells (25)
4 Brainstorm
4 Serum Visions
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
3 Stifle
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice

Sideboard (15)
3 Duress
4 Engineered Plague
4 Vindicate
2 Pithing Needle
2 Winter Orb

Lots of good additional content can be found here: http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=29779.0

Note: The information below may contradict with the decklist above due to modifications made after this thread was created.

Deck Design and Concepts

The deck is relatively similar to U/G/x Threshold... it runs off of a very low cc engine, a low land count, and it is blue-based aggro/control. There are some very large differences though.

Let me begin by saying that this deck abuses the cheap cc and "free" cards in the format. This allows the deck match the speed of the Legacy format, it also allows the deck to run a lower land count so that the deck draws into more business (spells and creatures) and less lands. However, the low land base is relatively protected by a solid draw engine and disruption/protection package.

One large concept(s) of the deck that is not inherently noticed is the differential between card quality and card advantage versus the opponent. This is something that should be kept in mind while playing with or against the deck. The creatures are somewhat like 2-for-1 in that they have additional utility abilities besides being aggro that puts on a clock. This in itself creates a form of card advantage (making drawing creatures almost the same as drawing 2 cards). However, cards like Dark Confidant and Meddling Mage distinctly make a differential in card advantage. Dark Confidant creates card advantage for me and Meddling Mage creates card disadvantage for my opponents. The deck also runs 8 cantrips and 4 Duress. The 8 cantrips do not create card advantage but they create card quality, which has been established as a solid concept via U/G/x Threshold. The ability to thin through the deck and draw for better threats/answers gives the deck card quality. Having the right answers at the right time is important for the deck. The 4 Duress is similar in function to the cantrip; it creates a differential in card quality. However, Duress decreases the opponent's card quality rather than increasing my own. Cards like Umezawa's Jitte and Mother of Runes provide reusable effects that can also create card advantage.

Another important thing to remember about the draw engine (4 Confidant and 8 cantrip) is that it allows the deck to run lower amounts of certain cards without necessarily reducing the consistency of seeing it (2 Umezawa's Jitte maindeck is a prime example). It also makes sideboard options much more effective.

The deck itself is extremely synergistic. Most of the cards are entwined together with synergy. A great example of this is turn 1 Duress followed by turn 2 Meddling Mage. Another great example is how cards like Brainstorm, Serum Visions, Duress, and the fetchlands fill the graveyard for Jotun Grunt to feed off of. UWb is a beautiful color combination, the allied colors provide a tremendous amount of benefit with eachother.

Fish was a deck that was created in Vintage. It carries the concept that it has a very bad game against aggro but I hardly believe that is the case. Legacy is a very aggro-oriented format and I believe that the color combinations of UWb make for an aggro/control deck that has solid matchups against opposing aggro strategies with amazing matchups against control, combo, and aggro/control. U/G/x Threshold has been considered, from many sources, as having solid matchups against nearly everything in the format (I stress the word nearly). This deck is no exception; it has similar matchups against opposing decks as U/G/x Threshold does.

Why would I run this deck instead of Threshold? It's a bit harder to hate out because it doesn't have as strong of a reliance on the graveyard as Threshold does (and Jotun Grunt is a double edged blade; it also hoses the opponent's graveyards). It lacks in fat a little, though 3 Jotun Grunt and 2 Serra Avenger make for a solid fat package and the 3 Mother of Runes make the smaller creatures of Dark Confidant and Meddling Mage much more effective. The deck runs Duress, which Threshold does not, as well as Umezawa's Jitte. Both of these are advantages in my opinion. Umezawa's Jitte is simply amazing in aggro/control, especially in Fish.

Another large concept of the deck is the necessity to establish an early game dominance, in both card quality/advantage and board position. The deck can, typically, easily ride a victory if it neutralizes the opponent's early game threats (this is mostly directed towards aggro). Although the deck does not fall on its face if it does not do this, it gains a very favorable position when it does. The deck has the tools necessary to establish an early game dominance. The whole concept of establishing early game dominance has a direct relation with tempo. The deck wants to always be one step ahead of the opponent, whether it be in hand advantage, board position, etc.

I would also like to say that this deck is extremely consistent.

Card Choices

I'd like to go into detail a little bit about specific card explanations, reasonings for being in the deck, and why they are ran at the amounts that they are ran at.

7 fetchlands
6-8 is a solid amount for this deck, so I went with 7. The shuffle effects synergize with Brainstorm and Jotun Grunt to an extent and the thinning decreases the chance of mana flood (since this deck requires very few lands to function). I chose to run 4 Flooded Strand instead of 3 Polluted Delta because only Flooded Strand can fetch the lone Plains.

4/3/1 Duals
The deck is primarily blue with a heavy splash of white and a light splash of black. Since the deck is allied colors, all 7 fetchlands will grab any of the Duals. I feel that the 4/3/1 split of Tundra/Underground Sea/Scrubland fits the decks color requirements perfectly. The lone Scrubland gets fetched out when the deck has a Tundra out and needs double white for Serra Avenger.

1/1 Basic Lands
The basic lands provide protection against non-basic hate, most specifically in the form of Wasteland. The lone Island is tutorable by all 7 fetchlands while the lone Plains is only fetchable by the 4 Flooded Strand. The deck functions much better with dual lands, and fetching for basic lands should be kept to a minimum to increase effeciency, thus why I only run 2 basic lands. One Island and 1 Plains is more than enough to cast most of the spells in the deck in the face of Wasteland, I felt that the light splash of black was not worth running a lone Swamp for.

I think the manabase is extremely solid, if not perfect for my curve.

16 creatures is a solid amount of aggro for the deck, although the 3 Mother of Runes are mainly utility. I'm not an avid fan of extremely low creature bases in aggro/control decks and 16 suits me fine.

3 Mother of Runes gives the deck a solid 1 drop that answers Goblin Lackey and provides utility usage for the rest of my aggro package. Mother of Runes makes combat situations much more dominant. Mother of Runes itself effectively chump blocks anything without trample or flying as long as it's not an artifact creature. More importantly than what I've already mentioned, she provides reusable protection against spot removal (aside from cards like Diabolic Edict) for my entire creature base, giving the deck a Nimble Mongoose-like untargetability effect. Probably the most important aspect of Mother of Runes is that she turns the weak aggro of Dark Confidant and Meddling Mage (which represents the largest portion of aggro in the deck) into threats, psuedo Silver Knights if you will. Mother of Runes has consistently pulled her weight in the deck and I feel that she gives the aggro package of this edge a tremendous amount of advantages to warrant her inclusion. Another thing to remember is that she is still a creature and she can still swing a Jitte. I only run 3 of her due to my draw engine and the fact that more than 1 in play is often overkill (2 is fine, but 3 or more becomes excessive).

Jotun Grunt may be seen as a temporary, hard to play threat that is questionable as a maindeck creature. I completely disagree. His ability to hose graveyards is invaluable in this format. The ability to destroy an opponent's Threshold, remove Life from the Loam, Eternal Dragon, Darkblast, etc are invaluable. He's a 2cc 4/4 that gives the deck a very solid fat drop. The deck supports his upkeep considerably well with cantrips, fetchlands, Duress, etc.

Serra Avenger has seen a fair deal of discussion but generally disregarded due to it's ability to not come into play until turn 4. If there is a deck in the format that can support her, it's this deck. This deck isn't reliant upon dumping creatures as early as possible in the first few turns to go for the throat. During the first few turns the deck is establishing an early game dominance, playing cantrip, (other) creatures, control elements, so on and so forth. Waiting to drop a Serra Avenger until turn 4 is rarely an issue. She gives the deck additional muscle, being a 2cc 3/3. However, the fact that she has flying and vigilance (and I stress both abilities, not 1 or the other) is just huge. She's evasive and she can block and kill most of the threats in the format, doubling over as aggression and defense. She is ungodly with a Jitte. 2 felt to be the appropriate number because I don't want her clogging up my early game hands. Some people seem to think that Serra Avenger isn't viable without Vial, though Vial only makes her come down a turn sooner and is unnecessary for her success. Other people dismiss her in this deck because of the double white requirement. The deck sufficiently runs enough cantrip to get 2 white sources and by turn 4, it shouldn't be a problem. Pithing Needle resolves the Wasteland and Rishadan Port issues, out of the sideboard, if necessary.

Dark Confidant is card advantage on an aggro stick; a 2cc 2/1 isn't bad but when it draws you a card every turn, it becomes nuts. The deck's very low cc curve of 19 1cc spells and 20 2cc spells (especially with Jitte) easily negates the life loss. I run 4 to optimize my seeing him, because Confidant wins games. I want to see him early game a large majority of the time. Drawing into multiple Confidants can often be negated with the cantrips but having 2 Confidant's in play isn't always a bad thing. I run 4 because Confidant is awesome.

Meddling Mage is an amazing answer to so much in the format. It cripples combo, prevents the opponent from playing removal (especially mass removal), and does so much more. It becomes even nuttier with Duress. At the same time, it's still a 2cc 2/2 that puts on a clock. I run 4 because Meddling Mage is awesome.

Brainstorm and Serum Visions are the best cantrips in this format, at least in my opinion, and I run the full 4 of both of them. I felt that, with 4 Dark Confidant and 4 Duress, that 8 cantrips were a solid configuration. Too many cantrips leads to digging into more cantrips and losing tempo (by investing mana into something that's not actually a real threat/answer), while too little don't provide the necessary card quality and dig that the deck demands. 6-10 is a solid number of cantrips but I feel that the deck is most comfortable with 8. They are also pitchable to Force of Will if need be.

The whole point of running blue, especially as the main color (and aside from the cantrip), is for a countermagic suite. I've playtested with different congifurations for a long time and ultimately sided with a 4/3/2 split of Force of Will/Daze/Counterspell. 4 FoW in any primarily blue based deck is almost mandatory for the format, regardless of the card disadvantage, due to it being an instant-speed hard counter. I only run 3 Daze because, while it may be extremely effective within the early stages of the game, it is typically useless in the mid-late game. Mid-late game Dazes can be pitched to FoW, so I'm content running 3 while running 2 reduces the chance your going to see it early game when you need it anyway and running 4 just gives the deck more dead weight later on. Counterspell comes in where Daze leaves off, being dead weight early in the game but becoming very valuable in the mid-late game. With 2, I reduce my chances of having them in my hand early game. Especially with the cantrip, my chances of drawing into them mid-late are relatively good.

Swords to Plowshares is, in my opinion, the best spot removal spell in the format. 1cc instant speed that removes a creature of any size is amazing. The life gain that the opponent gains isn't really an issue since this decks primary goal isn't a fast paced aggro strategy anyway. I don't think that my running of 4 of these should even be questionable.

Duress is a card that some people love and some people hate. I personally love the card, but it just does so much more in this deck. As I explained above, it creates a differential of card quality between me and my opponent. I also explained that it has distinct synergies with the rest of the deck, allowing me to name off spells that are in the opponent's hand with Meddling Mage, knowing what to counter or use removal on, etc. Duress is an amazing tool against combo and blue based control and blue based aggro/control. Duress allows me to draw out my opponent's spot removal so that my creatures can come into play safely. It dumps into the graveyard easily to assist in funding Jotun Grunt. For all of these great effects, it only costs 1cc. Drawing them later in the game can sometimes be worthless but the cantrip generally does a good job of negating this. Some people argue that the card sucks in aggro/control because it doesn't create tempo like countermagic does. I think that the deck already has an incredible amount of of tempo and that the card quality differential it creates completely overrules the lack-of-tempo argument. Not only that, I'm still not quite sure how it gives the deck bad tempo in the first place. Duress is useless in the Goblin matchup but are sideboarded out for Engineered Plague. If Goblins is heavy in a given meta, a 2/2 split of Duress/Cabal Therapy can be run. I run the full 4 of Duress because they are frickin amazing in this deck.

I've seen alot of people say that Umezawa's Jitte sucks in this sort of deck, decreasing tempo far too greatly. I completely disagree. Umezawa's Jitte is beyond amazing in aggro/control, especially Fish. It enhances the smaller creatures into monstrosity-sized threats. It provides a tremendous amount of control putting creatures out of Lightning Bolt range, gaining life, and killing off the opponent's creatures (card advantage). It's extremely good at opposing aggro, especially Goblins. 4 mana (2 and 2) is well-worth-it investment for a card as amazing as Jitte. I run 2 maindeck to avoid drawing into multiples (where they become deadweight), because they are less useful against non-aggro based strategies, and because my draw engine effectively makes me see them more often than it actually appears on paper. I sideboard in a 3rd Jitte for most aggro matchups.

I'm not going to go into detail about my sideboard. Sideboards are generally metagame dependant so variations in sideboards will always exist. My sideboard is a general answer to everything that the deck might face at a large legacy event and some (most) of my sideboard choices are devoted to helping out my more problematic matchups/cards.

I've tried alot of cards in this deck, from Vindicate to Spiketail Hatchling to Aether Vial to Wasteland to everything, and this is what I found to be the greatest performing list so far.

Matchup Analysis

The deck has favorable matchups against Threshold and Solidarity preboard and postboard. That's 2/3 of the Tier 1 in itself. The deck goes roughly 50/50 with Goblins preboard with Goblins having a slight favorability game 1, while the matchup becomes 60/40 or even 70/30 after sideboarding. The deck handles the Tier 1 decks of the format incredibly well, and that in itself should make the deck desirable. The deck does have a few problematic matchups though.

Black-based aggro/control decks like B/w Deaduy and B/r Sui can be difficult. My deck runs a 3 color manabase with 17 lands, so the land denial strategies of these decks can sometimes be crippling. My large amount of fetchlands and cantrips (draw engine in general) help to negate this, as well as my disruption package of free countermagic and Duress, but land denial can sometimes be an issue. Discard effects can also be crippling against blue-based control, which is another disadvantage for me. Again, my cantrip/draw engine and disruption package help to combat this. I believe B/w Deadguy is much easier than B/r Sui because B/r Sui is far more aggressive, though my deck doesn't roll over to either deck. The matchups are difficult but they can be won. Gladly, neither of these decks are overly popular enough to worry about too much. My sideboard options against them can include Pithing Needle and Umezawa's Jitte (Engineered Explosives isn't very effective).

Chalice of the Void set at 1 and 2 can wreck Fish. Stax, 5/3 Artifact Aggro, and Faerie Stompy run Chalice. Luckily for me, these decks aren't extremely popular, though Engineered Explosives set to 0 handles Chalice pretty well. I also run Serenity in my board. I don't think that Stax and 5/3 are too difficult of matchups (aside from Chalice) though I haven't had much playesting experience against either so I really have no idea. Luckily for me, Faerie Stompy is often inconsistent, empties its hand fast with a lack of card quality/advantage, and has a very shaky manase. Cards like Swords to Plowshares, Daze, and the like can offset them and ruin them completely.

I've had great success against Affinity in the past but recent playtesting against it shows that it might be more problematic than I anticipated. Sometimes they explode extremely fast, while Ravager puts up alot of resilience for removal. As long as I can prevent them from exploding too greatly early on, it's not hard to dominate the mid-late (3-4 Thoughcast is a poor refill engine). Board hate can come in the form of Jitte, Serenity, Engineered Explosives, and Pithing Needle. It's not an easy matchup but it's not something that dominates me either.

Angel Stompy is the last problematic matchup for me to discuss. They have better aggro (not better creatures, better aggro) and more equipment with more creature removal. The key is to keep them from exploding early on, keeping Exalted Angel off the table at all costs while keeping their equipment off the table as well. Parallax Wave can be crippling, especially a double Wave, because it protects their creatures and clears the way of mine so they can launch an offensive. Their Mother of Runes also makes it difficult. As long as I can stabilize, Jotun Grunt and Serra Avenger out-fat them (when they don't have Angel). They lack card advantage/quality which is an extremely important concept that needs to be abused in this matchup in order to secure a win. Engineered Explosives, Serenity, Jitte, and Pithing Needle can come out of the board to greatly increase the favorability of this matchup.

I won't discuss 9 Land Stompy, G/R Beats, or Zoo because, although they aren't easy matchups, they aren't difficult either. They are relatively solid matchups that I would say I have a favorable matchup against. Jitte, Perish, and Engineered Explosives can come out of the board to help this matchup depending on their decklist.

Tournament Results

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...ead.php?t=4408

So basically, I placed 10th Day 2. This was my first tournament and I made a ton of misplays and mistakes. I only played on MWS for testing so my real life game skills were a little unexperienced. I pilot my deck very well but stupid mistakes like forgetting to pay Jotun Grunt's upkeep happened at the most inopportune times. I feel that I could have easily made Top 8 both days but unfortunately I did not. 10th place isn't too bad though and I'll redeem myself at the next large Legacy event.

Epilogue

Some things I've considered after the tournament:

Almost all of the Threshold players were playing maindeck Pithing Needle. Needle was such an awesome card all day for them (I played against it and I watched others use it) and I'm considering dropping 2 maindeck Counterspells for 2 maindeck Pithing Needles. This would also free up my sideboard.

I playtested Goblins alot and my results were always good against them but I did pretty bad against them at this event. I'm considering adding additional board hate for them, possibly adding in a Darkblast or 2 if I maindeck 2 Pithing Needles.

I'm also not sure if I want to drop an Engineered Explosives out of my sideboard for a Serenity. Serenity just seemed to be more valuable to me in the Angel Stompy matchups. It's much more effective at Affinity. I didn't come across Chalice at the Duel for Duals though, so I'm not sure that I want to drop the 3rd Explosives.

There's alot of directions that the deck can be taken (Cloud of Faeries, Ninja of the Deep Hours, etc), but I like this build alot.

All in all, I'm very pleased with my deck and I believe it could quite possibly become the next Tier 1 aggro/control deck.

[tivadar]

So, my first instinct woudn't to be to compare this to threshold, but rather 3c Angel Stompy. Have you looked at Phil's build? What advantages does this have over that? It seems to me that this deck is a slower, but has better card draw/consistency/counters. However, does this really make it worth it? You say yourself AS is a problem matchup.

Not trying to shoot it down, but I'm just wondering how these two decks compare, the lists are pretty close, minus the exalteds of course.

[Hanni]

Well, 3c AS is white based with black and blue splashes.

UGw Threshold is blue based with white and green splashes.

My deck is sorta like a mix between 3c AS and UGw Threshold.

The thing about this deck is that it's not meant to be over aggressive like Angel Stompy. The deck isn't trying to play threats like Silver Knight for an aggresively quick win. Not only that, this deck cannot support the double white casting cost of Silver Knight and Soltari Priest. Running Exalted Angels in a deck with 4 Dark Confidant and 4 Force of Will (already) seems a bit like suicide to me.

I'm not sure how much better 3c AS is against the rest of the metagame but I went 2-0 against it on Day 2 of the Duel for Duals (probably a fluke). It seems like it has a worse Solidarity matchup and a better Goblin matchup. I'm not quite sure about the differences between Threshold but my deck has a great matchup against Threshold already.

Goblins proved to be more difficult at the tournament than it was in testing, so a better Goblins matchup is always good. I still like UWb Fish better than 3c AS though, it has more emphasis on control and less emphasis on aggro. That's the sort of player that I am, I love playing with Force of Will and other countermagic.

UWb Fish also seems to be more consistent than 3c AS.

EDIT:

I made the following changes to the deck:

MD
-2 Counterspell
-1 Duress
+3 Stifle

SB
-1 Engineered Explosives
+1 Duress

Basically, I decided that Stifle was a great card for the deck. It has natural synergy with the Jotun Grunt's in my deck. It allows Jotun Grunt's to come into play earlier. It allows Jotun Grunt's to swing for an extra turn. If anything, it's pitchable to FoW. It's also very disruptive and it does so with tempo. It gives the deck additional protection against early Wastelands, making the manabase more stable. It hits cycle card that were otherwise unstoppable, such as Gemalm Incinerator. The tempo that it creates against cards like Pernicious Deeds is nutty. It's another way to stop an early game Lackey and Fanatics (on Mom) or mid-late game Ringleaders and Matrons. It's cheap and fits the decks curves much better, costing only 1cc.

Stifles give my deck a much better game 1 against Goblins, which is exactly what I felt the deck needed. It does so without sacrificing it's matchups against Threshold and Solidarity (hitting fetchlands, hitting Grunt, or pitching to FoW).

The Counterspells were good but I really felt like the deck just didn't need them. The 2 mana investment was difficult to leave open when the deck wants to play 2cc creatures and sorcery speed cantrip or Duress. The double blue required the deck to obtain 2 blue sources and competed with Serra Avengers WW cost (and Avenger does more for the deck than Counterspell). They were additional hard counters, though Stifle gives the deck more reach. Duress and StP usually do what Counterspell does, though Duress does it with less tempo. Either way, they were the weakest link and I felt Stifle did more for the deck.

Duress has been amazing in this deck. Cutting them out of the deck completely is pretty much out of the question, at least in my build. Cutting them down to 3 isn't bad though, since they are much like Daze in the fact that they are amazing early on but get worse as the game progresses. 3 Should ensure I get to see them, especially with the cantrip and draw engine. I felt I'd rather have 3 Stifle and 3 Duress rather than 2 Stifle and 4 Duress.

I was debating whether I wanted 3/2 or 2/3 Serenity/Engineered Explosives, but I decided to go with a 2/2 split. If I see Affinity and Stax alot, I'd board 3 Serenity. If I see alot of Chalice and Zoo, I'll board 3 Engineered Explosives. However, Duress comes in against Threshold and Solidarity or possibly other matchups as well.

I'm also trying to decide if I want to do a 2/1 split of Duress/Cabal Therapy.

I edited the original decklist to reflect these changes.

[nightshade81]

Let me start off by saying I really like this deck and it's a fun alternative to Threshold. I've played this deck and other versions a few times and have been presently surprised with its performance across the field.

One disadvantage of this deck is it's defense. It has very little to deal with creatures swinging into it. Grunt is no Werebear and can't sit back and soak up damage. Serra Avenger very good at it but doesn’t come online till turn 4, is WW, and is only a 2 of. This is a reason to run additional Jittes, more creature removal, or other creatures.

One of my friends commented that "Jitte is the deck" and I would have to agree. This deck really needs Jitte to hit play in most of its aggro match-ups so I generally run three. Yes it's horrible to draw multiples but if you are drawing multiples your most likely winning the game anyway because you have Jitte on the table. One of the great advantages of this deck over Thres is the ability to run Jitte and should be taken advantage of.

I have tested a large list of creatures of this deck and I really like your current list for the UWB version.

My current list only varies form yours by
-3 Stifle
+2 Counterspell
+1 Jitte

Some of other idea's that I have tested that I go back and forth between is Misdirection and Edict. Though mostly Edict. It's a very strong card and able to deal this the most troublesome creatures.

One final note is that you need Armageddon in the SB for Rifter and other control.

[Hanni]

Well, there are other defensive measures against aggro. I run 3 Mother of Runes, which makes aggro matchups much better. I sideboard a 3rd Jitte and 2 Engineered Explosives when necessary. The countermagic can answer problematic creatures if need be. I actually built this deck to try and handle aggro, since Fish was usually dismissed for being terrible in aggro heavy metagames.

The reason I run 3 Stifle maindeck is because they have natural synergy with Jotun Grunt... but more importantly, they address Goblins very well. Goblins is the most important aggro matchup to address because not only is it a very popular deck, it's also difficult to play against.

I also don't really like Armageddon vs Rifter, since the deck runs such a low land count. I've found that Serenity and Pithing Needle are pretty amazing in that matchup, with countermagic to protect the Serenity's/Needles and my creatures as well.

[nightshade81]

I was just about to edit my post to include Mom when you replied. Yes, Mom is a very good defensive card but it has two major flaws. One is it will never kill anything unless it has a Jitte and two it is rather easy to remove in the early game. If you tap Mom to give itself protection from a color to block, it will generally get removed in response. I'm not saying that Mom shouldn't be in the deck, because I'm not. It's the best one-drop in UWB and should be included. I'm just saying the deck has areas of weakness that could be worked on.

I also don't really like Armageddon vs Rifter

Seeing as you wrote that I'm 90% sure you haven't even tested Armageddon vs Rifter. In game two all you need to do is hold back 2 land and around turn 7 drop a Geddon and the game is yours. With this and similar decks Rifter game 2 becomes a cake walk. I have never lost games 2 & 3 to Rifter playing UW aggro-control. Although game one should be theirs.

[Hanni]

I never said Armageddon wasn't good against Rifter, I was saying that Serenity and Pithing Needle get the job done. Those cards are also very versatile sideboard options, applying to a large number of other decks. Rifter isn't a popular deck anymore, at least not here, so sideboarding something for it is sorta irrelevant. Like I said, too, my deck runs 17 lands, Armageddon is 4cc, and it destroys all my lands in the process.

Stifle is pretty good against Rifter too, since it stops their Slice and Dice and such.

Overall, I've never really had problems playing against Rifter. Making sure to keep key spells from resolving is pretty important. The deck doesn't necessarily need to keep it's threats protected constantly as long as it can put the Rifter player on a sufficient clock before they can stabalize. Meddling Mage is a pro here and Dark Confidant gives the necessary card advantage to win.

As far as Mom goes, early Duress and countermagic help get here into play resolved. Your right about her chump blocking, though naming removal with Meddling Mage or countermagic/Duress can help with that.

EDIT:

Although I haven't made any changes to the MD or SB, I changed my sideboard plan vs Goblins.

The current SB plan is:

-1 Jotun Grunt
-3 Daze
-3 Duress
+4 Engineered Plague
+3 Pithing Needle

If anyone is interested in why I choose the cards I removed and why I choose the cards I added, feel free to ask and I'll explain it.

[Tobias Moeller]

I'm just testing the following list:

UWB Straight Fish (60)

Lands
4x Polluted Delta
2x Flooded Strand
2x Island
4x Wasteland
3x Tundra
3x Underground Sea

Creatures
4x Meddling Mage
3x Mother of Runes
3x Jötun Grunt
4x Dark Confidant

Spells

3x Umezawa’s Jitte
4x Swords to Plowshares
4x Brainstorm
4x Daze
2x Repeal
2x Counterspell
1x Darkblast
4x Serum Visions
4x Force of Will

Sideboard (15)
3x Pithing Needle
3x Engineered Plague
2x Disenchant
2x Divert
3x Armageddon
2x Perish

I'm still looking for a nice finisher. The Avenger seems to be a good creature. I will test it.
The Darkblast is just an idea in a heavy Goblin Meta. The Repeals are very nice, because you always find something to bounce. e.g. the protect your creatures, bounce your Grunt, remove creatures and counter them...Worship...
It would be also nice after playing a Duress (not in this list) to bounce your Meddling Mage.

[Lukas Preuss]

I just wanted to mention that UWb Fish finished third in the Dutch Legacy Championship yesterday, piloted by Christian "Windux" Wilczek. This deck is really, really strong and should become a powerful contender in the metagame.

[al the great]

I just wanted to mention that UWb Fish finished third in the Dutch Legacy Championship yesterday, piloted by Christian "Windux" Wilczek. This deck is really, really strong and should become a powerful contender in the metagame.

Could you get us the deck list? Thanks.

[Windux]

It's nearly the same as Hanni#s list is.

Lands (17)
4 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
4 Tundra
3 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
1 Island
1 Plains

Creatures (16)
2 Serra Avenger
3 Mother of Runes
3 Jotun Grunt
4 Dark Confidant
4 Meddling Mage

Spells (27)
4 Brainstorm
4 Serum Visions
2 Counterspell
3 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Duress
3 Umezawa's Jitte

Sideboard (15)
3 Serenity
4 Engineered Plague
2 Perish
2 Engineered Explosives
3 Pithing Needle
1 Disenchant

I though, there would be much Affinity or Staxx-decks, like on every tournament with no known meta.
But? No Staxx, no Affiniy, not even Enchantress.

I played 6-0 (12:1) and ID'ed the last 2 rounds, making T8 as 2nd afters Swiss.

Quarters: Won 2:0 against a friend, who was in the same car like me. he palyed RW Goblins

Semi-Finals: Lost to WG confinement, after a 1-1 and a mulligan down to 5, having a good hand (good for 5 handcards...) but he had just 7 good handcards.

I played in the Swss against:
Goblins
UG Madness w/Counter
(Small)Pox [Like the list in this forum]
Burn [won on 15 Life..Double Meddling Mage, followe by a Jitte are just good. 3 Daze in Game 3 + Mage = better]
Stasis [there is lost my only game]
One deck, I can't remember

Maybe more ;)

[al the great]

Interesting deck. Someone's finally found good use of Serra Avengers.

[Cavius The Great]

So, my first instinct woudn't to be to compare this to threshold, but rather 3c Angel Stompy. Have you looked at Phil's build? What advantages does this have over that? It seems to me that this deck is a slower, but has better card draw/consistency/counters. However, does this really make it worth it? You say yourself AS is a problem matchup.

Not trying to shoot it down, but I'm just wondering how these two decks compare, the lists are pretty close, minus the exalteds of course.

Angel Stompy is Angel Stompy becuase it runs Ancient Tomb. This deck doesnt run Tomb for acceleration, it doesn't need to becuase of the "weenie-like" creature base. I wouldn't compare HanniFish to Angel Stompy at all.

[Hanni]

Congratulations on your 3rd place finish Windux. I'm suprised that you lost to Stasis and not Goblins.

How was Counterspell working out for you? I found that I liked Stifle better than Counterspell in the deck, but Counterspells are still really solid.

It seems like UWb Fish is starting to make appearances in alot of Top 8's... the PT Kobe side event and now at Championship tournaments in other countries. I wonder much popularity it's going to get before GP Columbus. I was kinda hoping to pilot it as a rogue deck there so I wouldn't have much board hate against me but it looks like that's not going to happen.

[Windux]

I won 2:1 against Stasis, so I lost just one game (not match).
My Hand in the 2nd Game was just so! broken.
Scrubland, Fetch, Duress, Meddling Mage, Serum Vision, Serum Vision and Dark Confidant
But he started with Land, Root Maze.
So my broken hand was just a..not that good hand.
I started with Brushland, to Duress him on the 2nd Turn. But I drew a Daze after that, what was really bad.
He just dropped Stasis and Chronatog at the time I was tapped out.
So I was in a hardlock.

Against Goblins I just can say: Serra Avenger is insane!
Along with Jitte, you can't lose :)

Counterspell fits great in the Deck. I played it, because in the past (GPT and GP Lille) I had much success with NQG/w, where I palyed exactly the same Counter-Split and Meddling Mages. Grunts in the Main was also my plan for Gro (among with Quirion Dryad).

Somethink like: Mongoose, Meddling Mage, Jotun Grunt and Serra Avenger.

That also was the reason, why I started to test UWB Fish.
I also would think about, to play 3 Counterspells, if you playing Duress and not Repeal.
Repeal over Duress is also the thing, what I'm going to test.
Repeal is good against dropped Humility's, Confinements*, Worship(+untargetable Creature) and other random-crap you can't fight against or just need to long to win with decking your opponent.
You still have a synergie with between Repeal and Meddling Mage.You can bounce them and drop it on the stuff, you don't want see to be played.
Also you can bounce your "Too-high Upkeep Costs"-Grunt oder just dying creatures of your own.


*Even, if you can't get decked with Jotun Grunts.

[Hanni]

But Repeal is not a permanent answer to anything and this deck has access to Disenchant, Serenity, Vindicate, Engineered Explosives, etc if it needs to deal with things like Humility and Worship. Tempo advantage is nice but it's not going to help if you can't capatilize on that tempo and they replay the card next turn.

I do like the synergy between Repeal and Jotun Grunt, though Stifle has much better tempo and is more useful overall. With Repeal, you spend 3 mana to bounce Grunt and then 2 mana to replay him... with Stifle, it's just 1 mana. Stifle also protects the manabase against Wasteland, stops cycling abilities that can't be countered like Gempalm Incinerator and Decree of Justice, plus everything else it stops.

I've also had problems leaving UU open to cast Counterspell, especially early game. It's been a bit slow for me and I decided to go with Stifle and Duress instead. It also conflicts with early mana source development if you run Serra Avengers.

So basically, Counterspell isn't bad and I used to run them. I'm not suggesting that you drop them because they are good. What I am suggesting is that Repeal is not that good in here.

[Hanni]

Umm... why did this get moved out of the Proven Forum and back to the Developmental Forum? I thought this deck was already established as a contender for the format...?

[Citrus-God]

Umm... why did this get moved out of the Proven Forum and back to the Developmental Forum? I thought this deck was already established as a contender for the format...?

The Top 8 Windux made was impressive, as well as the one in Japan. But I dont think this deck is played enough to actually valid it in the Proven Forum. I would say it deserves it's slot in here. This deck has such an impressive match-up against Thresh and Combo. But I think the reasn the deck is called Fish is because it's a metagame deck. I honestly dont think Rifter belongs up there either.

[Volt]

It's at least as much of a contender as Burn, The Rock, MUC, 5/3, and several other decks currently in The Open. Are we sure this thread didn't accidentally get bumped down here after the board reset yesterday?

[Windux]

It's not a metagame-hate Deck like the T1 Fish in my opinion.
It's just the disruption from the T1 UWB Fish.

You have disruption against almost every deck.
Against Combo and Control you have Meddling Mage and Duress who are the nuts.
Against Aggro you have Jitte, Grunt and Avenger, who just flys above the opponents board (and don't speaking of having a Jitte in his hands).

And this cards not death against any deck. Even against Goblins, Duress can help you. I just dropped Meddling Mage on Goblin Warchief after a Duress showed me, that my oppo had 2 or I dropped Meddling Mage on a, with Ringleader, revealed card.
So you see, self this cards are not useless against Goblins, even if this are normally Control/Combo-Hates.

I would call this "Destructive-Solution.dec" instead of UWB Fish.
Fish just wants to disrupt at any cost and plays only Hate.
This Fish is just aggroish with cards, who can beat your oppo AND disrupt him.
T1 Fish plays much less aggro (if you don't look at Negator, who isn't playable in T1.5)