just like every rock has teeg in the board and discard to combat combo, with your statement it would seem these decks have a good combo-matchup, which is wrong, i play rock now for 3 years and even with preboard discard and thorn of amethyst and teeg from sideboard, its extremely hard to fight combo
for this reason i do not see black being as good as blue against combo, and this due to sorcery speed and no force of will
but as well i have to say that the rock and this dumpstruck list are really comparable, specially if it comes to the combo-matchup
the dumpstruck list you provided here has preboard 16 card (12 targeted discard + 4 meddling mages) to fight combo, my rock list has preboard 6 targeted discard to fight combo
all i wanted to say is that a bluebased deck will allways have the better combo-matchup
I never said that Rock has a good postboard combo matcup due to Teeg and discard, I was merely pointing out that Rock has access to stuff like Teeg and discard to help the combo matchup.Originally Posted by AggroSteve
Also, you and I are basically agreeing that non-FoW Fish decks have no clear edge over a traditional aggro-Rock deck. A Fish deck packing FoW is an entirely different story, but then that brings me back to me original question posed to Hanni; why would you want to play a non-FoW UWB Fish deck over an aggro-Rock deck?
I looked back a few pages and didn't see anyone mention sword of the meek...but has anyone else tried thoptercombo in here? I put together a rough list this morning and gave it a try on mws. I didn't play zoo/goblins so I'm not sure how well it would do there...but it did good agaisnt everything I went up against except ubg landstill. I was somewhat underwhelmed by daze.
4 marsh flats
4 flooded strand
4 polluted delta
2 underground sea
2 tundra
2 scrubland
1 misty rainforest
1 island
1 swamp
1 plains
4 dark confidant
3 tidehollow sculler
4 mother of runes
3 stoneforge mystic
2 vendilion clique
4 swords to plowshares
4 thoughtseize
4 brainstorm
2 oblivion ring
2 enlightened tutor
2 thopter foundry
1 sword of the meek
1 sword of fire and ice
1 umezawa's jitte
sb: very rough
3 threads of disloyalty
2 aether vial
2 ethersworn canonist
2 tormod's crypt
1 sword of light and shadow
1 enlightened tutor
1 aura of silence
1 tsabo's web
1 wheel of sun and moon
1 ensnaring bridge
I was considering path over swords...and I think vindicate/elspeth/jace are strong contenders for spots. I'm not sure about aether vial...all I know is its not great vs. pernicious deed.
Edit: I playtested the list and edited it took out daze and 2 thopter foundry for md e-tutor and o-ring.
Edit 2: -1 tidehollow sculler, -1 oblivion ring, -1 enlightened tutor, +2 vendilion clique, +1 runed halo
Last edited by kinda; 08-02-2010 at 01:44 AM.
Has anyone tried Steppe Lynx in the deck and upped their Marsh Flats, Flooded Strand and Polluted Delta count? I know it doesn't quite have the synergy as it does in zoo with Knight of the Reliquary, but it can fuel Jotun Grunt's upkeep and Tombstalkers delve (if you run either, or both).
To those who were wondering why I posted a Dump Truck list, it was because I was just fooling around with some builds. Don't read too much into it.
@ Thopter Foundry
I just think that you're trying to do too much inside one deck. Mother of Runes does nothing to protect your Thopter, for example.
@ Steppe Lynx
Steppe Lynx is intended for an aggressive deck, that plans to lay the beatdown early. Fish is not an aggressive deck by any means, its slow, defensive, and controllish.
---
Here's a recent decklist that I put together, that has tested decently:
U/W/b Fish
// Lands
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
3 [R] Tundra
3 [R] Underground Sea
1 [R] Scrubland
1 [UNH] Island
1 [UNH] Plains
1 [UNH] Swamp
// Creatures
4 [UL] Mother of Runes
2 [TSP] Serra Avenger
2 [WWK] Stoneforge Mystic
4 [RAV] Dark Confidant
4 [ALA] Tidehollow Sculler
// Spells
4 [IA] Brainstorm
4 [LRW] Ponder
4 [DIS] Spell Snare
4 [NE] Daze
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [IA] Swords to Plowshares
2 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
// Sideboard
SB: 1 [DS] Sword of Fire and Ice
SB: 1 [DS] Sword of Light and Shadow
SB: 2 [FD] Engineered Explosives
SB: 2 [AP] Vindicate
SB: 2 [10E] Pithing Needle
SB: 3 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 4 [LRW] Thoughtseize
I agree with the criticisms people have for Meddling Mage. It's just not what it used to be.
I think Tidehollow Sculler is the replacement for Meddling Mage. It basically does what I wanted Meddling Mage to do, except it does it much better. There's no guessing games because you get immediate information about the opponent's hand, and then you get to take the best one away. Tidehollow protects himself by pulling away removal first, if I don't already have an active Mother of Runes in play.
Dark Confidant, Tidehollow Sculler, and Stoneforge Mystic are all forms of card advantage, which is exactly what Fish wants.
The only card I'm still questionable about is the Spell Snares. The reason I run them right now is because I needed 4 more blue spells to maintain a healthy blue spell count for FoW, and Spell Snare seemed like the best option. Spell Pierce isn't so hot without Stifle/Waste, Stifle is mostly useless in here without Waste/Grunt, and I don't have room for CB/Top (and I don't think it would be appropriate in this deck anyway). This spot is still open for debate, though.
Last edited by Hanni; 08-01-2010 at 12:28 AM.
I think Spell Pierce is still the right option over Spell Snare in that list, even without the mana disruption. The shift from early - mid game, where they deck would be aiming to establish control/winning- the cards you care about resolving are removal for your guys (mostly 1cc) and broken ~4 drops (Planeswalkers, NO, Ad Nauseum). Spell Snare doesn't do anything against these. With SFM+Jitte, StP and Mother of Runes, you have really solid game against any creature spells. I think atleast 2 of those 4 spots should be Spell Pierce, the other two could maybe be Spell Snare or I might try Negate.
I'd really suggest the 1 Umezawa's Jitte, 1 Basilisk Collar split for equipment. The Collar has really strong synergy with Mother of Runes, Serra Avenger, and Dark Confidant. It makes hands with a piece of Equipement and a Stoneforge Mystic look alot stronger, giving you double Equipment rather than a virtual blank in hand. It's also sort of relevant that it's a 3cc drop, so that it comes online a turn before players are sometimes expecting equipment. Like starts of Mother of Runes, Tidehallow Sculler, Collar+Equip can lock a game (vs non combo) down before it's barely started.
The SB Thoughtseizes should probably be Duress, the only matches the card would be boarded in for are combo and control. You aren't going to ever want to bring Thoughtseize in against agro. You have way too many stronger answers in your sideboard: 2 Swords, 2 Explosives, 2 Vindicate.
@ hanni: The countertop/thopter was actually my favorite part of the deck...it just seemed too weak otherwise against tarmo decks. In regards to spell snare I would add in the combo or more board control. Having 16 pieces of disruption (counting tidehollow) and only 4-8 pieces of board control (you can't completely count mother) with nothing to deal with a resolved counterbalance doesn't seem right to me. Also you are running thoughtseize in the board...against what do you need 20 pieces of disruption? If you end up reconfiguring the 75 to lower the disruption spell count I'd consider vindicate/combo for the md and perish/engineerend explosives for the board.
I've been having pretty good luck with the following list on MWS. The surprise MVP is Shadowmage Infiltrator because with the equipment from SFM he can win games all by himself. But even without it he's got a decent toughness for blocking early aggro-critters, and enough evasion to make sure I draw that extra card anytime I want (really the only black creatures that see play are Dark Confidant [which SMI kills] and Tomstalker). I'd just like to get peoples thoughts on this list (if anyone cares) and find out what Fish's worst match-ups are so I can make a SB (if anyone remembers).
Creatures:
3 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Dark Confidant
4 Shadowmage Infiltrator
2 Aven Mimeomancer
Disruption:
3 Daze
3 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Vindicate
4 Thoughtseize
Misc:
4 Brainstorm
1 Umewaza's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
Land:
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
3 Tundra
3 Underground Sea
2 Island
2 Plains
2 Swamp
I haven't done much playtesting yet but here are my result thus far:
Merfolk (4-0): So long as I have a opening hand with some combination of Daze, Fow, and/or Thoughtseize they can't explode in the early turns. Bob or SMI will win any attrition war after then.
Burn (2-1): It all comes down to top-decking at some point because you're never gonna keep an early creature on the board. But SFM onto SoFaI makes wins out of nowhere.
Survival Madness (0-2): I didn't get a good opening hand in either of these games, so I don't know if the match-up is bad or if its just my luck
Affinity (0-1): Had to mulligan down to a crap hand just to find some land, again I don't know how the match-up really fairs.
Random MWS Junk (4-1): Being aggressive with my disruption in order to stick a DC or SMI almost always leads to a win, then said critters re-fill the hand with more. Frustrating for them, uberfun for me.
Last edited by Mono_Thematic; 08-13-2010 at 01:53 PM.
I feel like recent sets have brought some new goodies to the deck.
Here's the list that I've been testing:
Lands (21):
3 Marsh Flats
3 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
3 Tundra
3 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
3 Wasteland
1 Swamp
1 Plains
Creatures (19):
3 Dark Confidant
4 Tidehollow Sculler
4 Mother of Runes
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Phyrexian Revoker
Spells (20):
4 Mental Misstep
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Vindicate
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
SB:
1 Vindicate
2 Path to Exile
1 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Enlightened Tutor
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
1 Nihil Spellbomb
3 Perish
3 Spell Pierce
It's been testing fairly well. I couldn't fit in FoW, but I guess if you wanted to you would cut some lands for some cantrips, and trim the Revokers and the Vindicates, maybe fit in Vendilion Cliques somewhere.
Thoughts?
playing 3 confidants instead of 4 and no forces sucks - there is enough stuff to cut. no further explanation needed.
I think no forces, if backed up by enough disruption, can be a correct decision for some metagames.
This is my current list, which has been doing quite well for me.
4 Mother of Runes
4 Dark Confidants
3 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Mirran Crusader
2 Vendilion Clique
3 Diabolic Edict
1 Vindicate
2 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
4 Mental Misstep
2 Thoughtseize
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Spell Snare
4 Brainstorm
2 Jace, the Mindsculptor
3 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
1 Plains
1 Island
1 Swamp
3 Flooded Strand
3 Marsh Flats
2 Polluted Delta
1 Karakas
4 Mishra's Factory
SB shifting a lot, with some number of Perish, gravehate, disenchant effects, another equip against Zoo etc...
It's 61 cards, so one cut short from a decklist, but it's pretty tight already.
Edicts are in over StP because there are a lot of Emrakul/Progenitus-based and Reanimator decks in my area.
I also am currently thinking of switching Factories for Blinkmoth Nexus, they are just much more reliable with equipment.
"Blue-Eyes White Dragon is a fatty that Jamie Wakefield seems to have overlooked. It has a tremendous power and toughness of 3000/2500, making it bigger than current threats such as Tarmogoyf or Mountain."
Why aren't these lists running aether vial or some other form of acceleration at least?
All the good creatures sit at 2cc and most provide card advantage so having acceleration seems like a logical fit. Moxes to churn out turn 1 confi/mystic or vial at two seem awesome for this deck. With the equipment and some manlands you are probably not running out of things to do with your mana early anyways.
A mix of mother of runes,confidant, tidehollow sculler, stoneforge mystic etc would just be awesome with vial. Stuff like tidehollow sculler or phyrexian revoker is also just nuts with vial as those cards get twice as good if you can use them on their turn.
As for fow, it really does seem like it can be cut from the deck at the moment. Bringing the blue count high enough for fow is hard and the card is just not positioned that well in the metagame. Flipping fow with confidant can also randomly lose games you shouldnt be. Hardcasting fow also seems out of the realm of possibility for this deck. In fact seems like you can cut blue alltogether almost, makes the manabase much more stable. Instead you could go for some of the other awesome goodies like hymn to tourach for example
Vial could be good in a more creature-centric version, but in the 16-18 creature version there just isn't much gain in adding Vial, while you will certainly have to make some painful cuts, as the deck is very tightly packed and the overall card-quality is very high.
Then again, if you want to run a fish deck with more creatures you could just take merfolk.
As for Chrome Mox, I have been running it before in a version /w Bitterblossom and T1 Confidant or Blossom ist certainly very powerful. Same probably goes for Mystic.
I didn't include it here, because the curve is very well balanced with discard, Spell Snare or mom on T1 for protection, then powerful creature on T2.
Because you want the protection from discard and/or mom in most cases, you play your good stuff on T2 anyway.
"Blue-Eyes White Dragon is a fatty that Jamie Wakefield seems to have overlooked. It has a tremendous power and toughness of 3000/2500, making it bigger than current threats such as Tarmogoyf or Mountain."
With all of the Stoneforge Mystic hype, and me looking over some of those decklists, I couldn't help but notice how similar many were to UWb Fish. This has peaked my interest in UWb Fish. Like someone else mentioned, Fish has gotten alot of new goodies since 2006, and I decided to tune a list up.
// Lands (18)
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [R] Tundra
2 [R] Underground Sea
2 [R] Scrubland
1 [UNH] Island
1 [UNH] Plains
// Creatures (16)
4 [UL] Mother of Runes
2 [WWK] Stoneforge Mystic
4 [RAV] Dark Confidant
4 [ALA] Tidehollow Sculler
2 [MOR] Vendilion Clique
// Spells (26)
4 [IA] Brainstorm
4 [LRW] Ponder
4 [NPH] Mental Misstep
4 [NE] Daze
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [IA] Swords to Plowshares
1 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
1 [DS] Sword of Fire and Ice
// Sideboard (15)
SB: 1 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 1 [MBS] Sword of Feast and Famine
SB: 1 [NPH] Batterskull
SB: 4 [ZEN] Spell Pierce
SB: 2 [CFX] Path to Exile
SB: 2 [AP] Vindicate
SB: 2 [WL] Aura of Silence
SB: 2 [SOK] Pithing Needle
It's funny just how little the actual structure of the deck has changed since 2006.
Mother of Runes is just as good as ever. So is Dark Confidant.
Tidehollow Sculler is a far better replacement for Meddling Mage, since it provides immediate benefit. The entire deck is centric on card advantage, and Tidehollow follows suit. Thoughtseize on a stick removes bombs or protects Sculler, whichever is relevant, and a 2/2 body becomes a serious threat with Mother of Runes and equipment around.
Stoneforge Mystic a far better replacement for Jotun Grunt, since it also provides card advantage, and grabs Jitte. Jitte on anything turns my small guys into serious threats.
Vendilion Clique is a far better replacement for Serra Avenger, since by turn 4, I should be able to cast either of them. Being castable a turn sooner is a small bonus, and overall I feel that Clique is more relevant. Avenger is junk without a Jitte, while Clique is really strong against most decks. Clique also keeps my blue spell count in tact, since I no longer run Meddling Mages.
Mental Misstep is being ran for obvious reasons: resolving and protecting turn 1 Mom's and turn 2 Bob's wins games. The 1/1 split on equipment has been fine so far in testing, but there are many options here, and I haven't explored them all. I don't think Batterskull belongs in the maindeck, though.
I considered running a couple of Jace TMS, but I honestly don't think they are necessary for this deck.
Thoughts?
Last edited by Hanni; 07-10-2011 at 02:12 PM.
I wanted to make another post, since I've done some playtesting with the list I posted up, with extremely impressive results.
First of all, there will always be a special place in my heart for UWb Fish. It's the first deck I ever designed for Legacy (2006), and with alot of help from others, the deck (not myself) actually went on to Top 8 the first GP Columbus (Hulk Flash era). It's also the only deck I've ever designed to actually have my name in it (Hanni Fish, lol).
Anyway, I scrapped the deck after Tarmogoyf saw print, not because the deck was no longer viable, but because it was at a significant disadvantage at that time and there was a massive amount of innovation to be had elsewhere.
However, with recent printings, this deck has gained an enourmous amount of valuable tools. The concept of the deck remains unchanged, but it's far more effecient at exacting its gameplan now.
The fundamental structure of the deck is obviously a blue-based aggro/control deck, but it differs greatly from the green splashed versions; rather than attacking with fat (Goyf, Knight, etc), it uses "Grizzly Bears" that offer incredibly powerful abilities. The fact that these bears are both bodies and abilities, that in and of itself is card advantage. However, the abilities themselves generate both virtual and actual card advantage directly, which sets this deck far apart from other aggro/control strategies.
The deck is fantastic at surviving the early game through a host of defensive means. 12 (free) countermagic spells, Sculler (Thoughtseize on a stick), Mother of Runes (protection from removal/wall against aggro), and Swords to Plowshares are all fantastic at getting me into the midgame. It's very conceivable to get to the midgame with the opponent having absolutely nothing on the table (besides land). Sure, Tarmogoyf is a monstrous wall against a swarm of 2/2's and smaller, but if Goyf never sticks, a few 2/2's on a clean board are an impressive clock.
Once I'm in the midgame, there are few decks that can survive the absurd amount of card advantage that this deck creates. Every single creature creates either virtual or actual card advantage, and when combined with equipment, can quickly close a game out, either immediately, or by being so far ahead of the opponent in board development that they can never come back. Mother of Runes and equipment dominate the red zone, and all of the card advantage and control elements prevent the opponent from recovering.
After playtesting, I'm convinced that this deck has the ability to be a force in the metagame. It obviously has a strong combo matchup, but it also has a strong control matchup, with solid matchups across the board. Aggro is by no means a bad matchup either; between Mother of Runes and equipment, this deck has plenty of tools for combatting aggro. Combined with discard/countermagic/removal keeping the board relatively clear, and card advantage to keep the control coming, I'm very pleased with this deck.
I also want to make it clear that I am not saying that this deck is instant Tier 1, the next DTB, and that it's going to dominate the format. All I'm saying is that rather than being an unplayable fringe deck, this deck is actually a very good deck and definitely has the potential to make Top 8 finishes. Considering that other "Stoneblade" decks have already done so, that statement should not be farfetched.
/rant
Last edited by Hanni; 07-10-2011 at 06:42 PM.
I have been having some success locally with this Uwb Thopterblade list.
3 tundra
2 underground sea
1 scrubland
1 island
1 plains
1 swamp
4 flooded strand
3 polluted delta
1 marsh flats
1 creeping tar pit
4 wasteland
1 academy ruins
4 dark confidant
4 stoneforge mystic
4 thopter foundry
1 batterskull
1 sword of the meek
1 sword of feast and famine
3 force of will
2 spell snare
2 daze
4 swords to plowshares
4 mental misstep
4 brainstorm
1 crucible of worlds
1 engineered explosives
2 enlightened tutor
sb
1 umezawa's jitte
2 smother
1 manriki-gusari
2 spell pierce / flusterstorm
1 phyrexian metamorph
1 pithing needle
1 diabolic edict
1 wrath of god
1 perish
2 extirpate
1 tormod's crypt
1 ethersworn canonist
Monsters: 14
Mother of Runes x4
Stoneforge Mystic x2
Dark Confidant x4
Tidehollow Sculler x4
Instants: 18
Mental Misstep x4
Brainstorm x4
Spell Pierce x2
Swords to Plowshares x4
Force of Will x4
Sorceries: 8
Inquisition x4
Ponder x4
Artifacts: 2
Jitte x1
SoFI x1
18 lands
I feel like a deck slightly more geared to setting up in the early game (but sans Daze) would be a smidge better. The interaction between inquisition and the rest of the deck seems promising, and spell pierce seems like the better daze, seeing as daze is a speed bump but pierce is more solid and better at protecting turn two mom and such. I feel like an angrier creature is needed but I don't have any ideas just yet, I'll go look. Something like a really strong finisher. Against Aggro you use the spell pierces to stop their removal. It's like the better daze I guess. Can't stop creatures, but daze wasn't going to do that much past turn two anyway.
Timely Reinfocrements against aggro decks. Yeauh.
Team Battletoadz: Fuck the Meta-police?
If it's all in our heads, it's best that we don't loose them.
Do you see this as just being another Stoneblade deck now? In that case would it be better to have four Mystics? It is my favourite tri-colour combination so I would like to see it make the top 8.
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/r 