Against UGW you need a Medling Mage on Mystic Enforer and it is safe...
btw I had a mirror today: MIRROR SUXX!
Its just "Draw Meddling Mage, drop it on the stuff, that you don't have in your hand and would suck for you now!"
On game there was 4 meddling MAges online:
Jitte (he)
StoP (Me)
Ghastly Demise (me)
FoW (Me)
page 3 is broken atm so i can't read Windux's post... EDIT: there, fixed
But I took the deck to my local tournament once again last friday and again did semi-well... I played burn first round which was surprisingly more dificult than I thought it would be; however, he did play MD pyrostatic (funny enough he had 2 out game 1 and he was at 4 and i was at 2... it was his 3 remaining fireblasts against my 2 remaining FoW's)
I completely slaughtered the rest of my matches for a 3-1 ending match record (7-2 game record).
Won't an AEther Vial be very good in the deck? You get 2 counters and then you don't need to pay mana for nearly all your guys, while using mana for other spells. Not to mention creatures become uncounterable and it sometimes can help you to alive through mana problems.
While I am a massive supporter of Vial in Type 1 UWb Fish, I don't believe it is proactive enough to fit in this deck. The creatures are cheap enough that you can cast them with little fear, because Daze and FoW are your primary counter backup, which obviously require no untapped land. Vial is pretty slow for this deck's gameplan, and it doesn't enable Ninja/Mage/Voidmage Prodigy/Kataki tricks like it does in type one.Originally Posted by Meatwarz
I tested with Aether Vial for a while and it doesn't really fit in this deck. Combat tricks are nice and it does give a little manabase consistency, but it just doesn't fit the deck. I run only 16 creatures, meaning that 27 spells in the deck cannot be cast by Aether Vial. Mid-late game Vial topdecks are completely dead draws. I suppose that in a variant with a ton of creatures, Vial could be useful... but it was very subpar in my testing.
Many people tend to think Vial is good in Fish... but let's examine why it is good in Goblins. Goblins is a mana hungry deck and the additional creature it puts into play helps them to cast multiple threats in a turn. The casting cost of the Goblins themselves are pretty high in cost. Fish doesn't have expensive creatures, so it's never really an issue to hardcast creatures. Fish has far less creature density than Goblins as well.
It can be nice to Vial in creatures to save for Counterspells early on... but the countermagic is free anyway (FoW and Daze). It can be nice to help put multiple threats into play early on... but your still spending your first turn playing Vial and then 2 upkeeps worth of counters to be able to Vial creatures into play. It doesn't really speed anything up early on... although the deck doesn't need increased speed anyway. The fact that all of the spells in the deck cost 1cc and 2cc makes the deck incredibly fast as it is.
Vial may be good in Vintage Fish, but Legacy is much different than Vintage.
Anyway, rather than try to make arguments for why I don't run it, just know that I tested it and I found it to be subpar. You can test it out for yourselves as well, and if you like it, go ahead and run it. However, I just don't think Vial is supposed to be in Fish. Goblins, yea. Fish, not so much.
Im about to unveil the number one way to destroy threshold with non other then meddling mage. As a 2 drop, mage is at worst Meddling mage is a grizzly bears but it also prevents spot removal from coming into play. Ideally you could cut STP and start running condemn as it is just as strong an answer. But what is the tech play? Slaping down a meddling mage and naming swords of course!! HOLY CRAP ARE THOSE DEAD CARDS IN YOUR HAND?!?! Yeah man, his mage is raping me…. While it does not seem like such a good play, if condemn is played, you should be able to have just as much spot removal and still take home victories.
Just a little idea, I was doing it in the mirror threshold =D but instead of condemn I was brining in joten grunt…. Pwnzor
O RLY?
Condemn is suboptimal and doesn't stop Nimble Mongooses... which is why I drop 2 StP postboard for 2 Perish. Personally, I think Perish is a much stronger card than Condemn against Threshold. I also bring in the 4th Duress, and sometimes I'll bring in E Explosives if I see Pithing Needles game 1.
So that gives me, for the Threshold matchup:
4 Dark Confidant
4 Duress
3 Jotun Grunt
2 Perish
0-2 Engineered Explosives
2 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Mother of Runes
Every single one of the cards mentioned above is amazing in the Threshold matchup, although Jitte and Mom (and E Explosives to an extent) can be wrecked by Pithing Needle.
Regardless, the Threshold matchup is a very favorable one.
Ok so we have some what covered the threshold matchup but I wanted to quickly ask one question, WHAT ABOUT GOBS? There are many decks that claim to beat them but I don’t think that this deck packs the punch… as it is the best ago deck in the format, it just seems there are to many dead cards cough cough Duress… yeah although there are some answers to gobs, jitte is not… as your average gobs player as tinkerer or tin street hooligan < SAY WHAT?!?! Or even korsian grip out of the sb as I believe that goblins will soon take on the color green rather then white to access some new cards
Just some quick thoughts before I go.
Cop red?
Wrath of god?
More spot removal? In what form? Condemn? Hydro blast?
Is joten grunt that effective? Seems like he gets chumped so much and then dies when you run out of cards…
Moat? It’s a far cry from being good even though it says, hahahaha you cant get me hahahaha…
Or even… should I say it? Tivadars crusade…. ROFL EAT WRATH BITCH
Just a couple ideas and things to think about
Please reply
Hahahaha I just remembered that the black version you guys are running can play endeared plague but seriously goblins can win with a plague on the board and with korsian grip… it will still be tough… just kidding, but seriously take into account the suggestions I have brought forth, perhaps there is a better way to beat the best agro deck in the format
And I leave you with a quote “there are two types of decks in legacy, those that beat goblins and those that think they can”
-food
I don't understand why do you use sideboard cards for a very favorable match up.
While favorable its not guaranteed, and you will be seeing Threshold decks a lot. Part of the reason that it is favorable is because of proper sideboarding, although 1st game should be in your favor. It also lets you name StP with Mage more reliably, etc.
The main reason would be because your just going to see the deck so much, and its not THAT favorable.
aznfoodgod, this deck isn't nearly as bad against Goblins as many people think. I believe it to be one of the hardest matchups for this deck but it's not an autoloss by any means.
Game 1 you really want to see a countermagic heavy hand (and/or StP). If you can keep their first few threats off the table and win the early game tempo advantage, it's usually not that hard to win. Of course, you want to fetch basics early to protect against Wasteland... and stopping the early Vial can win games. Turn 1 Stifle on their fetchland can create amazing tempo on the play, and I've won several game 1's against Goblins by starting off that way. Stifle really helps in this matchup, protecting guys against Fanatic and Incinerator or shutting off the opponent's draw/search Ringleader/Matron. Mother of Runes and Umezawa's Jitte are both amazing to see. Game 1 is about 40/60.
Game 2 is much better. You drop the 3 Duress (which I agree is underpowered against Goblins) and you gain 4 Engineered Plague and 3 Pithing Needle. Engineered Plague may not stop Goblins dead and win the game alone, but cutting off the opponent's removal via Fanatic (as well as permanent Wrath'ing all of their x/1 guys) and making Siege Gang Bang less amazing really helps. It turns the rest of the survivors into 1/1's (aside from Piledriver), allowing Fish's aggro to dominate the combat situations. Engineered Plague is a major crutch for Goblins and will generally give Fish a major advantage. The only concern then becomes keeping threats on the board, but that's not too hard after E Plague hits play. The problem with playing E Plague, though, is that it costs 2B. The Goblins players mana denial can make it difficult. That's where Pithing Needle (and Stifle to a lesser extent) come into play. Needle can shut off Ports and Wastelands. Needle can also cut off their Vials, making them far less explosive and sometimes causing them to lose far too much tempo to recover. It's also a permanent answer to both Fanatic and Incinerator or even Tinkerer. 3 Stifle, 3 Pithing Needle, 2 Umezawa's Jitte, 3 Mother of Runes, and 4 Engineered Plague are all very strong cards in this matchup. I'd say that games 2 and 3 are about 60/40 if you've playtested the matchup extensively enough and know what your doing.
As far as your considerations go, CoP: Red pretty much sucks vs Goblins. It might stop a Piledriver from doing some big damage, but Goblins swings with more sources than I have mana to pay for. Wrath of God is completely counterproductive to my own strategy. I don't think more spot removal is necessary... I'd rather have mass sweeps (Tivadar's Crusade) if anything. Although I feel that Engineered Plague is far more powerful than Tivadar's Crusade vs Goblins... and the fact that it doesn't require a double source is helpful. Moat could be a solid idea, though 2WW will mean it probably won't come online till it's too late most of the time and I only have 2 fliers in the deck. It also seems pretty narrow against the rest of the (aggro) field, since the 3rd Jitte will almost always be a better play. Jotun Grunt isn't too bad vs Goblins, since it is a 4/4 body (which can sometimes be hard for Goblins to deal with), though he does cause me to play the beatdown, which can be a bad thing. I drop 1 Grunt for games 2 and 3, since in games 2 and 3 the Engineered Plagues allow me to play the control more effectively.
Lejay, I sideboard in Perish because it's not a bad sideboard card vs random green aggro decks that occasionally have a presence that can be hard to deal with, such as G/r Beats or 9 Land Stompy. It also makes games 2 and 3 vs Threshold very good, making for savage Meddling Mages (on StP). Threshold is an extremely popular deck at large events and it doesn't hurt to make already favorable matchups even better... I want to make sure that I beat Threshold every single time.
Valor, Threshold is THAT favorable. In my last 15 2/3 w/ SB test games vs Threshold, I haven't lost a single match. 2 of the 2/3's were vs UGr and the rest were vs UGw. It's possible to lose this matchup, especially depending on playskill of both players, but the only times I had problems with Threshold was at the D4D Day 2 where my misplay of forgetting Jotun Grunt's upkeep is what made it difficult.
Carry on.
I keep hearing this from you over and over, and still am completely unconvinced. See, I have played this matchup many times, and here is what I have found:
1) All of Threshold's creatures are both larger, and more resiliant than any of Fish's.
2) Threshold runs both more countermagic, and quicker, more efficient ways to access it.
3) Fish runs one extremely slow answer to graveyard-based decks that is easily removed. Even if Grunt is resolved and not Plowed, the rest of Fish's clock is so slow that taking eight just to let him die, then filling the graveyard immediately after to achieve Threshold is easily accomplished. Conversely, if he is successfully cast later in the game, his ability will not come into play quickly enough to negatively affect Threshold's creatures, which will by then be either as large, or larger than he.
4) 7 of your listed cards for the Threshold matchup are stopped by Pithing Needle, which you have no way to remove.
5) Duress is an extremely poor card against Threshold without other discard. If the card can't be protected with Brainstorm, it can usually be cantripped right back. Or you nab a cantrip. Duress is superb at forcing through a win condition against control, but there are no game-ending cards in this deck.
6) Two Perish with the draw mechanisms in this deck gives about a 60% chance of drawing one. With Threshold's much faster clock, and greater countermagic suite, there is little chance of resolving one.
7) Threshold runs no dead cards. Stifle is dead against a competant Threshold player.
8) Dark Confidant will never in the course of a game compete with the card quality that Threshold's cantrip suite has. It is actually one of the cards I intentionally allow to resolve, as it is extremely easy to stymie the remainder of Fish's attacking creatures, and allow the Confidant to bring them within easy striking distance.
The matchup is two Tempo based decks vs. one another. Who can establish, and maintain pressure best usually wins. Since one of these decks has bigger, better, faster, more resiliant threats, with more ways to protect them, and more ways to continually draw them, I am quite certain it can make up for the minor advantages Fish has in hand and graveyard disruption.
~ Team Unicorn Motto
Some time ago, ObfuscateFreely said that in the metagame clock, Threshold not only underlines the aggro-control, but against opposing aggro, it's also the midgame deck. What made this so strong was the fact that it can play two roles in the metagame.
Also, I had no idea how Obfusctae Freely lost... really.
ICBE - We're totally the coolest Anti-Thesis ever.
"The Citrus-God just had a Citrus-Supernova... in your mouth."
The only resiliant threat is Nimble Mongoose, which can either be named by Meddling Mage (usually I name either StP or Nimble Mongoose, though in certain situations I can also name Needle). He can be blocked by Jotun Grunt or Mother of Runes, Jitte outsizes him, and Avenger trades with him. Werebear and Enforcer are both an StP away if not countered. They also rely on having a state of Threshold, which Jotun Grunt removes. Also note that my creatures double over as utility while Thresh's creatures are just big post-Threshold.1) All of Threshold's creatures are both larger, and more resiliant than any of Fish's.
Jotun Grunt is a house in this matchup.) Fish runs one extremely slow answer to graveyard-based decks that is easily removed. Even if Grunt is resolved and not Plowed, the rest of Fish's clock is so slow that taking eight just to let him die, then filling the graveyard immediately after to achieve Threshold is easily accomplished. Conversely, if he is successfully cast later in the game, his ability will not come into play quickly enough to negatively affect Threshold's creatures, which will by then be either as large, or larger than he.
If Countermagic or Duress doesn't get rid of them first, I have 2 Engineered Explosives in the board that will also remove Nimble Mongooses with it.4) 7 of your listed cards for the Threshold matchup are stopped by Pithing Needle, which you have no way to remove.
Duress is a house against Threshold. Threshold runs no card advantage, aside from Predict, which means that while its card quality will be good, it's card advantage won't be. Duress lowers their hand count. Duress makes my Meddling Mage namings typically better. Duress might not have much to grab when the opponent has a hand full of cantrips but it does help pull out the business spells like FoW and StP. I don't see Threshold as having multiple cantrips in hand during every possible turn in the game. It makes putting my threats into player easier, since it pulls out Countermagic beforehand, and it helps keep them their so that StP and Pithing Needle don't stop them.5) Duress is an extremely poor card against Threshold without other discard. If the card can't be protected with Brainstorm, it can usually be cantripped right back. Or you nab a cantrip. Duress is superb at forcing through a win condition against control, but there are no game-ending cards in this deck.
I'm not relying on drawing Perish to win. It's already a favorable matchup. Perish just puts it over the top. It makes my Meddling Mages on StP savage, and it can also be complimented by Engineered Explosives.6) Two Perish with the draw mechanisms in this deck gives about a 60% chance of drawing one. With Threshold's much faster clock, and greater countermagic suite, there is little chance of resolving one
Well, I can Stifle a fetchland if I think it's going to help me. Otherwise, it's not really dead in my deck since it stops Grunt's upkeep if he'd otherwise die the next turn. Within my deck itself, Stifle is useful... so I don't see how it's a dead card. It also gets boarded out (1-2) for games 2 and 3 anyway.7) Threshold runs no dead cards. Stifle is dead against a competant Threshold player.
Dark Confidant is a house against Threshold. On average, I'm taking like 1.1 life per turn from Confidant (when I'm not manipulating the top of my library). Card advantage (especially since I also have cantrip for card quality) gives me more threats and answers than Threshold can deal with. Dark Confidant, aside from Jotun Grunt, is the most powerful card in my deck vs Threshold.8) Dark Confidant will never in the course of a game compete with the card quality that Threshold's cantrip suite has. It is actually one of the cards I intentionally allow to resolve, as it is extremely easy to stymie the remainder of Fish's attacking creatures, and allow the Confidant to bring them within easy striking distance.
I agree to an extent. They both use tempo elements. However, there is alot more going on than just a battle of tempo. Card advantage and board control are also very important. I wouldn't necessarily say Threshold's creatures are bigger, although generally they are, and I wouldn't say they are faster, since they usually have less threat Density and don't get much creatures into play early game. I will concede that they are bigger post Threshold, and that size in the sense of an aggro clock makes them kill me faster if unchecked. As for resiliance, I think that Mother of Runes and Meddling Mage on StP is pretty resilient on my part, so I'd say it's about even. As for more ways to protect them, I strongly disagree. The opponent has possibly 1 more Daze and around 2 Counterspells (maybe 3) that I don't have. I have 4 Duress (post board) and 3 Mother of Runes (and Meddling Mage on StP), so I think I have way more ways to protect my guys. I also disagree when you say that Fish has less ways to continually draw it's answes/threats, since it still runs 8 cantrip and Dark Confidant is nuts.The matchup is two Tempo based decks vs. one another. Who can establish, and maintain pressure best usually wins. Since one of these decks has bigger, better, faster, more resiliant threats, with more ways to protect them, and more ways to continually draw them, I am quite certain it can make up for the minor advantages Fish has in hand and graveyard disruption.
All I can really say is, I'll PM you on AIM when I get the time and we can playtest this matchup as much as you'd like. I've played against Threshold numerous times and I can say with great certainty that my deck has a very favorable matchup for Threshold, hands down.
Well, you can read my tournament report or ask him, although I'm not sure how detailed my report is. Basically, I saw and resolved Dark Confidant in one of the games and I saw and resolved Jotun Grunt in another.Also, I had no idea how Obfusctae Freely lost... really.
I wont argue here, but if they're smart, they will board in more men aganst you. Also, they have Engineered Explosives too.
So is Swords to Plowshares and Countermagic.Jotun Grunt is a house in this matchup.
If Countermagic or Duress doesn't get rid of them first, I have 2 Engineered Explosives in the board that will also remove Nimble Mongooses with it.
What? They dont need Card Advantage, they just need card quality. It's hardly a problem that they ever draw dead.Duress is a house against Threshold. Threshold runs no card advantage, aside from Predict, which means that while its card quality will be good, it's card advantage won't be. Duress lowers their hand count. Duress makes my Meddling Mage namings typically better. Duress might not have much to grab when the opponent has a hand full of cantrips but it does help pull out the business spells like FoW and StP. I don't see Threshold as having multiple cantrips in hand during every possible turn in the game. It makes putting my threats into player easier, since it pulls out Countermagic beforehand, and it helps keep them their so that StP and Pithing Needle don't stop them.
Threshold does the same. Meddling Mage seems to be overrated at the moment.I'm not relying on drawing Perish to win. It's already a favorable matchup. Perish just puts it over the top. It makes my Meddling Mages on StP savage, and it can also be complimented by Engineered Explosives.
Stifling fetchlands are that efficient? I bet Threshold players would do the same.I'm sure their Stifles can hit yur EEs as well.Well, I can Stifle a fetchland if I think it's going to help me. Otherwise, it's not really dead in my deck since it stops Grunt's upkeep if he'd otherwise die the next turn. Within my deck itself, Stifle is useful... so I don't see how it's a dead card. It also gets boarded out (1-2) for games 2 and 3 anyway.
What if you dont draw it? Threshold has a stronger Cantrip base than you do. They'll find their answers and threats much more quickly.Dark Confidant is a house against Threshold. On average, I'm taking like 1.1 life per turn from Confidant (when I'm not manipulating the top of my library). Card advantage (especially since I also have cantrip for card quality) gives me more threats and answers than Threshold can deal with. Dark Confidant, aside from Jotun Grunt, is the most powerful card in my deck vs Threshold.
Based on my playtesting... I would say it's 50/50. It's exactly like the mirror's match-ups, but they have to be played differently.I agree to an extent. They both use tempo elements. However, there is alot more going on than just a battle of tempo. Card advantage and board control are also very important. I wouldn't necessarily say Threshold's creatures are bigger, although generally they are, and I wouldn't say they are faster, since they usually have less threat Density and don't get much creatures into play early game. I will concede that they are bigger post Threshold, and that size in the sense of an aggro clock makes them kill me faster if unchecked. As for resiliance, I think that Mother of Runes and Meddling Mage on StP is pretty resilient on my part, so I'd say it's about even. As for more ways to protect them, I strongly disagree. The opponent has possibly 1 more Daze and around 2 Counterspells (maybe 3) that I don't have. I have 4 Duress (post board) and 3 Mother of Runes (and Meddling Mage on StP), so I think I have way more ways to protect my guys. I also disagree when you say that Fish has less ways to continually draw it's answes/threats, since it still runs 8 cantrip and Dark Confidant is nuts.
Damn... I have my AIM. IM me, I dont trust other people with their playskill. I would much rather play the pioneer of this deck.All I can really say is, I'll PM you on AIM when I get the time and we can playtest this matchup as much as you'd like. I've played against Threshold numerous times and I can say with great certainty that my deck has a very favorable matchup for Threshold, hands down.
Damn... I wish I knew his sided for games 2 and 3.Well, you can read my tournament report or ask him, although I'm not sure how detailed my report is. Basically, I saw and resolved Dark Confidant in one of the games and I saw and resolved Jotun Grunt in another.
ICBE - We're totally the coolest Anti-Thesis ever.
"The Citrus-God just had a Citrus-Supernova... in your mouth."
Sigh.....
Y'know, Hanni's being mature enough not to take this discussion as a personal attack, so I guess I can let this snipe at my skill by someone who hasn't the first clue of what they speak slide.
I don't think this needs to be drawn out any longer, as it may just be a disagreement based on point of view. No one is claiming that Threshold is even favored against Fish, only that the opposite is equally false. It's strange that for a deck with such a small presence in the meta that Hanni's matchup statistics have been eerily accurate. Perhaps it is simply the myriad variants of both decks being played that give such a broad amount of results. Perhaps the Hatfield version is worse than other's against Fish.
With the high degree of success of many different versions of Threshold, and the same possible flexibility of diversity in Fish's builds, it may simply be who drew what, who played first, or who has a more applicable sideboard. This is why I refuse to allow that either deck can definitively claim a favorable matchup against the other.
~ Team Unicorn Motto
Not saying this deck is terrible, but I would like further proof on this deck's match-up against Threshold. I have tested this match-up extensively, and I would like tok point out that Thresh doesnt get slaughtered like crazy, but more of a 50/50 match-up. Also from my testing, I have concluded that they both have somewhat different functions. Hanni Fish is stronger against the field and is not reliant with the graveyard, but in return it posts weaker match-ups against Goblins Post-Board. Threshold is the same, but versus Aggro, Threshold tends to do much better, but has to prepare for graveyard hate game 2.
Hatfield Thresh is doing as well against this deck due to the lack of Mental Note. In fact, this would be the reason why I would run Mental Note again. I learned that if you inflict a ton of damage from your opponent, it will force him to either play Bob or keep in in their hand, as this is one of the biggest sacrifices to make within the course of the game. Also, Mage is by far the most dangerous creature in that deck, as well as Bob. Make sure they dont resolve... ever. I know this because I tested two different variants against this deck.
ICBE - We're totally the coolest Anti-Thesis ever.
"The Citrus-God just had a Citrus-Supernova... in your mouth."
Just looking at Aether Vial in the list for this deck looked sub par.
Hello to everybody!! I would like to comment some impression that had taken with this deck(my own version of uwb fish):
--Instants--
4 fow
3 daze
2 counterspell
4 branstorm
4 stp
3 stifer
--sorcerys--
4 pserum visions
-- leg. artifacts --
2 jitte
-- beast --
4 meddeling
4 dak confidant
3 jotun
3 serendib
3 isamaru
--lands--
1 island
1 plain
1 karakas(T: white or T:return target legend criature to owner's hand)
4 flooded
2 polluted
4 tundras
3 underground
1 scrubland
This deck is similar to of hanni, but with light differences. Out duress, needle and mom, and IN 3isamarus and one serendib.
The basic problem is that loses lives with many facility...fow-cnfidant..:s and one serendib or two with one or two cnfidants...
For this motive I have decided to realize (or not...)the following changes:
-1 serendib, -1 isamaru, -1 counter and +2 avenger and +1 jitte.
Karakas help me becouse I can return my isamarus to my hand, or other legend that wold be dangerous to me.
About the matc against thershold...I hope that it's favorable for my!!
I tested against white wenne whit a incredibol results: 8-0 to me jejej
This deck might turn in tier1 some day?? I wish it!!
Ah!! I'm from barcelona!
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