[Deck] TES (The EPIC Storm)

[Bryant Cook]

Sorry about the errors, the one about the number of lands is because I wrote the article when the deck played 10. The decklist and a few other things were edited quickly today because I had to be to work soon and wanted to see replies when I returned. The other errors I'm sorry for I had a mod proof edit it also, so whatever.

Simplify vs. Tranquility, I went over this on the last page or so.

I'll answer the survey when everyone else is done, I'd like to see what people think. I also don't want to influence people's choices since I'm the deck's creator.

Edit:: I fixed the 10 land problem and added the 15th SB card.

[etrigan]

Nice article.

Some questions/comments:

How often does Tomb of Urami go beatdown? This being a combo deck, I think you'd much rather be going off than going beatdown with a vulnerable Urami token.

Similarly, how often does Cabal Pit actually kill something? I understand that Meddling Mage is a serious problem, but having a one-of to get rid of him seems awfully inconsistent. I realize you have Wish-able answers for Mage, but just having one copy seems like it would do too little. Have you considered running either more copies (I know you used to run two), or some dual lands instead?

Regarding the sideboard, is Rough//Tumble there mostly to slow down aggro decks, or to kill Meddling Mages? If it's there to kill Mages, have you considered Massacre instead?

Generally, when does Dark Confidant come in? Against Threshold and Goblins, where the life loss can be an issue, it comes in. But against Solidarity, where the life loss is NEVER an issue, it stays out. I dont get it.

In your match-up analyses, you say "Try and win as fast as possible." for every match-up. I think you would be better off explaining under what circumstances the deck should be slow-played, as saying a combo deck should win quickly should already be apparent.

Again, in your match-up analyses, you side in Empty the Warrens in every match-up. Now, I realize those are just three decks, and I realize that different stuff is coming out each time, but have you considered running 2 EtW and 2 Tendrils maindeck? Not sure what would be removed though.

[Bryant Cook]

Nice article.

Some questions/comments:

How often does Tomb of Urami go beatdown? This being a combo deck, I think you'd much rather be going off than going beatdown with a vulnerable Urami token.

Similarly, how often does Cabal Pit actually kill something? I understand that Meddling Mage is a serious problem, but having a one-of to get rid of him seems awfully inconsistent. I realize you have Wish-able answers for Mage, but just having one copy seems like it would do too little. Have you considered running either more copies (I know you used to run two), or some dual lands instead?

Regarding the sideboard, is Rough//Tumble there mostly to slow down aggro decks, or to kill Meddling Mages? If it's there to kill Mages, have you considered Massacre instead?

Generally, when does Dark Confidant come in? Against Threshold and Goblins, where the life loss can be an issue, it comes in. But against Solidarity, where the life loss is NEVER an issue, it stays out. I dont get it.

In your match-up analyses, you say "Try and win as fast as possible." for every match-up. I think you would be better off explaining under what circumstances the deck should be slow-played, as saying a combo deck should win quickly should already be apparent.

Again, in your match-up analyses, you side in Empty the Warrens in every match-up. Now, I realize those are just three decks, and I realize that different stuff is coming out each time, but have you considered running 2 EtW and 2 Tendrils maindeck? Not sure what would be removed though.

Tomb of Urami is often baited to see if they have stifle or not, which is a reason it's in the deck same with Cabal Pit. Tomb goes aggro in match-ups where you know they generally don't have an answer(Solidarity, Goblins, Faerie Stompy ect..) Sometimes you cannot combo out due to a lockdown, may it be 2-3x mages, Chalice of the Void or Pyrostatic Pillar. This is where Urami shines, esp. with a Chalice on 0.

I've considered more 5c lands and Duals instead of Cabal pit, I understand that it's random; but having the option there is important. You can always Plunge into it if need be.

It's both the things that you've said, mainly in there because it doesn't kill Xantid Swarm. Massacre requires you to have a SWAMP in play and well sadly TES doesn't play Swamps.

I should've said that differenly I agree, however against Threshold about 60% of the time you are forced to slow down, against most decks with blue you are forced to slow down.

Dark Confidant comes in against decks where Xantid Swarm doesn't matter and match-ups that you want to or are forced to slow down the match-up. Giving TES the card advantage it needs to survive the long game.

I have ran 2 ETW at one point but it is very vunerable there was a heated discussion on this a few pages back, read it. However don't rekindle it.

[BreathWeapon]

It seems like the SB doesn't take into account SBing answers for aggro based SB cards like Pyrostatic Pillar, Root Maze, Chalice of the Void or Tormod's Crypt; Dark Confidant isn't much better than Xantid Swarm against Goblins, the SB should clear some space to deal with these cards.

[Bryant Cook]

It seems like the SB doesn't take into account SBing answers for aggro based SB cards like Pyrostatic Pillar, Root Maze, Chalice of the Void or Tormod's Crypt; Dark Confidant isn't much better than Xantid Swarm against Goblins, the SB should clear some space to deal with these cards.

I play Tranquility to deal with Pillar, Root Maze frankly sucks; LED doesn't tap. [Sarcasm]I haven't considered Chalice of the Void at all actually, it's pretty horrible[/End sarcasm] I believe I was playing 3x Shattering spree at one point and am still playing one. The deck was created so that we didn't have to fear Tormod's crypt, this isn't Iggy Pop. Not to mention you can always just loop Infernal Tutors. Dark Confidant at worst pitches for a black on mox instead of green, he's not horrible it is possible to gain card advantage against goblins. Goblins more than likely they will board out incinerators and fanatics for hate.

[BreathWeapon]

Root Maze isn't bad at all, it doesn't matter that LED doesn't tap, Lands, Chrome Mox and Lotus Petal still do, and Root Maze can be found in a lot of Zoo esq SBs. Having to Burning Wish for a 3cc answer to an Enchantment is awful against Goblins, resolving it thru' Rishadan Port and Wasteland against a Goblin player isn't a guarantee, and it is going to cost a reasonable amount of resources to do so, atleast the Burning Wish, Tranquility, an accelerant, 6 life and a turn. Why bother with any of that when you can Chain of Vapor it out of the game?

I'm not seeing the sarcasm behind Chalice of the Void; you recognize it's a problem, you've made concessions to it in the past and now your ignoring it against the deck/match up that is most likely to SB it in against you? Dark Confidant is by no means a bad card, but it isn't addressing the aggro opponent's SB games two and three, and the deck has an excess of cards to SB in for the Threshold and High Tide match ups as it is, 2xEmpty the Warrens, 2xDefense Grid and 4xDark Confidant etc. I would rather remove Defense Grid since it competes with Dark Confidant for being a SB card against Threshold, and to some extent High Tide, than not have a card to SB in against aggro.

Edit: People will SB out Ringleader and Incinerator before Fanatic, most Goblin decks don't have more than 8 SB slots for combo.

Tormod's Crypt can effect this deck, and people will SB it in. It doesn't have the same effect against TES as it does against IGGY, but it still stops the deck from being able to combo off into a guaranteed win, and it stops Right of Flame and Cabal Ritual from using their text to produce additional mana. A good aggro-control pilot can SB them in and then concentrate on protecting himself from Empty the Warrens, banking on using his counter magic in his starting hand and in his Diminishing Returns and to keep you from winning.

[Bryant Cook]

Root Maze isn't bad at all, it doesn't matter that LED doesn't tap, Lands, Chrome Mox and Lotus Petal still do, and Root Maze can be found in a lot of Zoo esq SBs. Having to Burning Wish for a 3cc answer to an Enchantment is awful against Goblins, resolving it thru' Rishadan Port and Wasteland against a Goblin player isn't a guarantee, and it is going to cost a reasonable amount of resources to do so, atleast the Burning Wish, Tranquility, an accelerant, 6 life and a turn. Why bother with any of that when you can Chain of Vapor it out of the game?

Yes it is, Root Maze if it ever sees play in Zoo Sb’s slows them down enough more them than us so that we have the time to build up the win. I’m aware that against Goblins that Tranquility isn’t a guarantee, however, the more appropriate option here would be to take 10-12 damage and resolve an ETW and win. If they have Sharpshooter with a way to give it haste in early turns I guess they win, but it’s a chance to play through Pillar and win. It’s not the greatest option but at least it’s there.

I'm not seeing the sarcasm behind Chalice of the Void; you recognize it's a problem, you've made concessions to it in the past and now your ignoring it against the deck/match up that is most likely to SB it in against you? Dark Confidant is by no means a bad card, but it isn't addressing the aggro opponent's SB games two and three, and the deck has an excess of cards to SB in for the Threshold and High Tide match ups as it is, 2xEmpty the Warrens, 2xDefense Grid and 4xDark Confidant etc. I would rather remove Defense Grid since it competes with Dark Confidant for being a SB card against Threshold, and to some extent High Tide, than not have a card to SB in against aggro.

Dark Confidant was added to improve a match-up that is boarder line even. I’d rather improve a match-up that needs it than a positive match-up call me crazy but I might just go with it. Defense Grid is staying because it creates a soft lock with Xantid Swarm against Solidarity; another match-up in which is boarder line and needs what it can get instead of improving an already great match-up. I didn’t SB in Confidant vs. Solidarity against Solidarity did I? No, because it slows you down and we don’t want that.

Edit: People will SB out Ringleader and Incinerator before Fanatic, most Goblin decks don't have more than 8 SB slots for combo.

I concede to this because I personally don’t know how goblin players SB, and really could care less.

Tormod's Crypt can effect this deck, and people will SB it in. It doesn't have the same effect against TES as it does against IGGY, but it still stops the deck from being able to combo off into a guaranteed win, and it stops Right of Flame and Cabal Ritual from using their text to produce additional mana. A good aggro-control pilot can SB them in and then concentrate on protecting himself from Empty the Warrens, banking on using his counter magic in his starting hand and in his Diminishing Returns and to keep you from winning.

It CAN, but only if you don’t have a greater understanding of the deck than Scrub X. If I have an opponent Crypt me in response to a 2nd Rite of Flame, they probably didn’t deserve to win anyway. You’re absolutely right and they can lock me down from Warrens but that takes time to do, you just won’t let them have that time. If worst comes to worse you can always Burning Wish for Rough//Tumble.

[BreathWeapon]

I don't think allowing aggro decks a chance to get back into the match games 2 and 3 with SB hate is worth improving the High Tide match up. The marginal loss against all aggro decks is going to be greater than the marginal gain against High Tide in a tournament. High Tide isn't improving it's match up post-board against TES, and I'm fine with a coin flip esq match up remaining a coin flip esq match up as opposed to allowing an aggro deck to sneak up on me.

I think you are seriously underestimating Root Maze, that card sees play in Vintage as a SB card for Combo, and Pitch Long is a lot more resilient than TES is. I would play against Zoo/3 Deuce, on the draw, with Root Maze being their first turn play and see for yourself how annoying that card is.

Tormod's Crypt is hit or miss against TES, but people are going to SB it in, and it can be used to grind the deck out of the game if the game goes long against aggro-control etc. I suppose this is a topical argument, considering we are talking about aggro, but I think it's a misnomer to state that Tormod's Crypt shouldn't be SBed in against this deck because it doesn't affect it.

[kicks_422]

Sure, SB in the Crypt while I go Ritual, Ritual, Rite, Infernal shenanigans into ETW.

Yes, it does DO something against the deck (shutting off IGG and multiple Rites), but unlike Iggy Pop, the deck doesn't need the GY, rather uses it as a tool.

[Giles]

So what do you guys think the ideal Wish board is?
The bare minimum is the following:
Ill-gotten gains
Diminishing Returns
Tendrils
Empty the Warens

How many lands? 10 or 11?
I am currently running with 10

MDed Disruption? Maybe 3 Swarms and 2 DGrids may not be the way to go, reasoning? Anymore cool stuff?
3 Swarms 2 Grids.

Any cool tech your willing to share? If so what is it?
I do not have any tech at the monent

What's your SB outside the wishboard?
Infernal Tutor
Compost
Shattering Spree

Do you guys think Simian Spirit Guide would be suited for this deck?
Maybe, I would be nice to have Lotus petal 5-6 but making red hurts the probability that it would be runned.

3 Infernal Tutors MD and 1 SB, or 4 MDed?
I do a 3/1 split
__________________________________________________
I had an idea at the PR yesterday, and Shrouded Lore might be nice in the deck. Sure it will not get back a Tutor, but it might be able to get a ritual back into your hand.

[BreathWeapon]

Sure, SB in the Crypt while I go Ritual, Ritual, Rite, Infernal shenanigans into ETW.

Yes, it does DO something against the deck (shutting off IGG and multiple Rites), but unlike Iggy Pop, the deck doesn't need the GY, rather uses it as a tool.

The point is that a lot of aggro decks don't have a better option, and that line of thinking can be used by an aggro-control player to get you to walk right into Stifle or Engineered Plague etc.

[kicks_422]

The chances of them having a Crypt and a Stifle/boarding in Engineered Plague for ETW against TES, and at the same time me drawing no form of protection in Xantid Swarm and SB Defense Grid and playing recklessly is very, very slim.

[Bryant Cook]

I'll answer the survery now enough people have taken it.

So what do you guys think the ideal Wish board is?

Tendrils of Agony
Empty The Warrens
Ill-Gotten Gains
Diminishing Returns

How many lands? 10 or 11?
I'm currently running 11, however, someone mentioned to me cutting two land for 2 SSG. I Haven't tested it at all, but what would your thoughts be? Tomb of Urami and Cabal Pit would be the two lands cut.

MDed Disruption? Maybe 3 Swarms and 2 DGrids may not be the way to go, reasoning? Anymore cool stuff?
3 Swarm 2 Grid is fine, nothing wrong with it. However it does mess with Infernal Tutor more than Xantid Swarm, and it doesn't pitch to Chrome Mox; which is why I opt to run 4 Xantid Swarm.

Any cool tech your willing to share? If so what is it?
The deck is my tech :p.

What's your SB outside the wishboard?
4x Dark Confidant
3x Shattering Spree (Defense Grid was cut, I had too much to side in VS. Threshold and Grid wasn't getting the job done. With Dark Confidant in the SB it overwhelms Defense Grids place, the card advantage created by Bob is too much.)
1x Duress
1x Tranquility
1x Rough // Tumble

Do you guys think Simian Spirit Guide would be suited for this deck?
Right now with the current list no, however, it's possible with 9 lands if they fill thier roll.

3 Infernal Tutors MD and 1 SB, or 4 MDed?
4x MD, you don't want to hurt the threat density of the deck.

[emidln]

I need you TES players to take a survey now...


So what do you guys think the ideal Wish board is?

Diminishing Returns
Tendrils of Agony
Empty the Warrens
Ill-Gotten Gains
Grapeshot
Tranquility
Cabal Therapy
Earthquake
3x Shattering Spree

How many lands? 10 or 11?

10.

MDed Disruption? Maybe 3 Swarms and 2 DGrids may not be the way to go, reasoning? Anymore cool stuff?

4 Swarms, 1 DGrid

Any cool tech your willing to share? If so what is it?

I think everyone caught on to my Tomb of Urami tech already. I read the cards and do the math in my head before comboing out. That lends itself to less fizzling. I guess playing the deck properly is tech ;)

What's your SB outside the wishboard?

3 Dark Confidant
1 DGrid

Do you guys think Simian Spirit Guide would be suited for this deck?

No. Casting it for 2R is going to be better than getting mana out of it at least half the time and I'd personally rather cast Lightning Bolt and get two and a half Storm for 2 cheaper.

3 Infernal Tutors MD and 1 SB, or 4 MDed?

4 MD

[BreathWeapon]

Don't cut lands, 11 is the correct number. People need to think about their mulligans and on color mana, 9 lands is going to create more mulligans and 2 SSG in the place of black/gold lands is going to create dead Xantid Swarms and Brainstorms.

What do people use the SB Ill Gotten Gains for?

[Jaynel]

I find myself going for IGG with Burning Wish any time I've used any combination of LED, Ritual, and Infernal Tutor. You play it out like IGGy Pop does and usually net a metric fuckton of Storm at the cost of 1-2 mana. Something like:

2 City of Brass in play.
Tap City, Dark Ritual (1, BBB)
Infernal Tutor for LED (2, B)
LED, LED (4, B)
Tap City, Burning Wish, pop both LED in response (5, BBBRRR)
IGG, returning Infernal Tutor, LED, LED (6, BR)
LED, LED (8, BR)
Infernal Tutor for Burning Wish, pop both LED in response (9, BBBRRR)
Burning Wish (9, BBRR)
Tendrils or ETW (10)

Thats actually pretty rediculous. You start with 4(!) cards in hand (LED, IT, DR, Wish) and 2 lands (one that makes R) end up with a kill.

All because of that IGG in the board.

[Kronicler]

SB IGG is used when there is already an infernal tutor in your GY, or there is a plunge and you are feeling lucky :-P. One situation that occurs regularly is when I have an LED, an Infernal Tutor, and a Burning Wish in hand with the ability to get 4 mana. With the SB IGG you can infernal for another LED then wish for the IGG in response crack the LEDs and win. I definately wouldn't take it out.

Kronicler

EDIT: Doh! Beaten to the explanation!

[emidln]

I haven't cut a land. I have NEVER ran 11 lands. In fact, I don't even like the 10th land. I've never had problems with 10 and I have had good results with 9.

[Cait_Sith]

I just wanted to tell you that I have seen TES become a lot more popular recently and to congratulate you on how far you've come with this puppy.

[Bryant Cook]

I think we need to do more of a sideboard breakdown, because well at times I'm happy with it then there are times I hate it.

Tendrils of Agony- is there really a choice here?

Empty the Warrens- What's the proper number? When only playing 1 MD (Breathweapon let's try not to start a war here). How often do you board yours in?

Diminishing Returns- Is there really a choice here?

Ill-Gotten Gains- Definitely debatable, I personally like it in the SB; Breathweapon seems to think it should be cut. I like it because the example listed above with Infernal for double LED, which seems to be the case a lot for me.

Dark Confidant- Is he really worth it? I've been testing him against aggro control a lot (UGW Thresh, Hanni Fish, $c Slivers) he's earned his place in those match-ups but how about against other arch-types?

Defense Grid- I can't decide if I love or hate this card. Half the time I hate drawing it and the other times I love it against Aggro Control, It wins games on it's own vs. Hanni Fish. I'm currently playing two and don't know if these should be Duress or not.

Rough // Tumble / Earthquake- What do you think this slot should be? We have these as possible choices R/T, Earthquake, Pyroclasm, Grapeshot, and Cave-in there’s probably more I didn't think of.

Duress- I find myself wishing for this more and more lately then again I am testing vs. Aggro Control. Should two more of these take the place of Defense Grid?

Shattering Spree- I recently went down to 1 of these, I hardly ever used them when I sided them in and I think it's better to concentrate on Improving match-ups that need it than ones that are already favorable.

Tranquility- I've gone over my views on this card and why it’s here for two cards only (Solitary confinement and Pyrostatic Pillar) and Simplify can't effectively deal with Confinement.

I'd like to hear your thoughts on this.