[Deck] TES (The EPIC Storm)

[BreathWeapon]

Chain of Vapor is better than Shattering Spree against aggro, and Shattering Spree is better than Chain of Vapor against aggro-control. Considering that the deck needs a substitute for Xantid Swarm against aggro-control, I think Chain of Vapor should be used instead of Shattering Spree, because Chain of Vapor is always atleast a Time Walk, while Shattering Spree is often dead.

The combo elements of Chain of Vapor do work well in this deck, all Chain of Vapor needs is 2 artifacts and 2 land in order to generate a significant storm count, and it's not difficult to generate additional mana off of a Chrome Mox or a Thresholded Cabal Ritual.

I still advocate using 3 ETW main, I win more games with ETW than I do with Tendrils against the most difficult match ups, and other people SB in ETW against EVERY match up, so what's the point of wasting SB space on it?

One change I have been testing is replacing Brainstorm with Night's Whispers, while it slows the deck down in comparison to Brainstorm, it imprints for black mana, digs deeper (2 cards plus two draws as opposed to 3 cards and two dead draws) and it generates card advantage (and in turn card advantage creates Threshold). The deck has to be more aggressive with Chrome Mox and Lotus Petal, but the additional card makes up for the loss of storm.

[Bryant Cook]

Chain of Vapor is better than Shattering Spree against aggro, and Shattering Spree is better than Chain of Vapor against aggro-control. Considering that the deck needs a substitute for Xantid Swarm against aggro-control, I think Chain of Vapor should be used instead of Shattering Spree, because Chain of Vapor is always atleast a Time Walk, while Shattering Spree is often dead.

The combo elements of Chain of Vapor do work well in this deck, all Chain of Vapor needs is 2 artifacts and 2 land in order to generate a significant storm count, and it's not difficult to generate additional mana off of a Chrome Mox or a Thresholded Cabal Ritual.

I still advocate using 3 ETW main, I win more games with ETW than I do with Tendrils against the most difficult match ups, and other people SB in ETW against EVERY match up, so what's the point of wasting SB space on it?

One change I have been testing is replacing Brainstorm with Night's Whispers, while it slows the deck down in comparison to Brainstorm, it imprints for black mana, digs deeper (2 cards plus two draws as opposed to 3 cards and two dead draws) and it generates card advantage (and in turn card advantage creates Threshold). The deck has to be more aggressive with Chrome Mox and Lotus Petal, but the additional card makes up for the loss of storm.

You already have a substitute in the sideboard it's called Empty the Warrens or Dark Confidant. ETW and Bob are just as good if not better than CoV against aggro. They also come in during more match-ups. I know you're comparing CoV to Shattering Spree but you fail to see that Chalice of the void's popularity is growing more and more and the best answer for Chalice and to a lesser extent Trinisphere is in fact Shattering Spree.

Yes, it is difficult to generate mana off of Chrome Mox. It's severe card disadvantage. Chrome Mox, tapping it for mana already guarantees one card was removed. Bouncing it and replaying it and imprinting again is a 2 mana at the high cost of 3 cards. If you can afford this, more than likely you are in a win-more situation and less of an, I need mana/storm situation. You'll rarely have 2 spare completely dead cards, no acceleration and no tutor to just win the game instead.

You win the game with ETW more than you do Tendrils because you play 3 of them main deck. If I ran 30 mountain goats in a deck and a horned turtle and X land. More than likely I'll be using mountain goats to win. However if the situation is changed you'll be using the win condition that has more numbers due to an increased possibly of drawing it. I'm not wasting sideboard space, Empty the Warrens and Dark Confidant are often used as substitutes for Xantid Swarm or other cards that are bad in certain match-ups.

I like Night's Whisper but by no means does it hail to Brainstorm in comparison. If the deck had more room or slots maybe, but at the current moment it doesn't.

Edit: I updated the opening post to include links to tournament reports.
EDIT 2: I just realized its 1 mana for 4 cards forgot chain of vapor itself.

[BreathWeapon]

Even with a single ETW, I win more games with ETW than I do with Tendrils, because I would rather Wish for ETW than risk Wish->Returns into a counter or cast ETW rather than risk Infernal->IGG into a counter. The number of ETW in the deck aside, it's the number of times where an ETW is preferable to an unprotected tutur/wish + LED chain that matters.

I'm not going to argue for or against Chalice until I see an aggro-control or control deck SBing Chalice IRL or in a tournament, but stating that Confident and/or ETW are just as good, if not better, than Chain against aggro is untrue Confident is terrible against aggro, it gives Mogg Fanatic, Gempalm Incinerator, Lightning Bolt, Chain Lightning, Lightning Helix etc. a target, and ETW should be replacing the second Tendrils and/or the Returns. Furthermore, while SBing Confidant for Swarm removes dead cards, it doesn't address hate cards, which is the point of the Chain/Spree SB slot.

SBing in a card against every archetype and every deck is the definition of wasting SB space.


I don't think that Night Whispers is better than Brainstorm, it's just different than Brainstorm. I don't mind designing the deck to combo off on turn 3 more and less on turn 2 if it gives me card advantage against aggro-control. It's worth testing for certain, with out Fetchlands, the effect is strictly better.

[Bryant Cook]

Even with a single ETW, I win more games with ETW than I do with Tendrils, because I would rather Wish for ETW than risk Wish->Returns into a counter or cast ETW rather than risk Infernal->IGG into a counter. The number of ETW in the deck aside, it's the number of times where an ETW is preferable to an unprotected tutur/wish + LED chain that matters.

I'm not going to argue for or against Chalice until I see an aggro-control or control deck SBing Chalice IRL or in a tournament, but stating that Confident and/or ETW are just as good, if not better, than Chain against aggro is untrue Confident is terrible against aggro, it gives Mogg Fanatic, Gempalm Incinerator, Lightning Bolt, Chain Lightning, Lightning Helix etc. a target, and ETW should be replacing the second Tendrils and/or the Returns. Furthermore, while SBing Confidant for Swarm removes dead cards, it doesn't address hate cards, which is the point of the Chain/Spree SB slot.

SBing in a card against every archetype and every deck is the definition of wasting SB space.


I don't think that Night Whispers is better than Brainstorm, it's just different than Brainstorm. I don't mind designing the deck to combo off on turn 3 more and less on turn 2 if it gives me card advantage against aggro-control. It's worth testing for certain, with out Fetchlands, the effect is strictly better.

If that's your logic you are solely basing your argument on insecurities. Not to mention some of your examples are flawed, both require the popping of Lion's Eye Diamond. If Lion's Eye Diamond is being popped they won't let the tutor resolve, simple. Empty the Warren wins are just as unprotected as any other win; they counter that final piece of acceleration so you can't cast it. People have realized the deck's weakness is its acceleration and how to hit it. Now that they've realized it, it makes ETW weaker. ETW is also vunerable to the format as a win condition.

Goblins is an aggro-control deck that plays Chalice. Dark Confidant provides card advantage, which is better than anything Xantid Swarm does against aggro. When sided against aggro it’s only a 2 of, because the other two slots are ETW. Even if they do keep in removal for a 2x of it's a horrible judgment on their part. Goblins sideboards out fanatic and gempalm against TES. You got me on lightning bolt; it's a huge card in the format and exists in every major played archetype. C'mon let's be serious your now using cards that are played in tier 2 decks to win an argument that’s based on beating tier 1 decks, it's illogical.

It's hard to make claims on cards you don't play like Diminishing returns. Dark Confidant sure does address hate cards; he gains card advantage and gives you a clock. With card advantage you will find your answer, which is better than a temporary answer. With a clock you can also have a lesser storm count to win, which is a very easy way to beat hate cards such as Chalice. With a clock (Dark Confidant, which also gains the card advantage possible to do this) playing 0cc cards with a Chalice of the Void out and casting Tendrils for 10-12 is just as efficient as waiting to draw a Chain of Vapor.

I don't sideboard ETW vs. Every archetype, in a lot of match-ups I only sideboard it in because it's better than Xantid Swarm. When a card is better than another card vs. a match-up you should probably side it in. It's not a waste of space when it makes your deck much more flexible.

[Citrus-God]

Look. The point of running a combo deck so reliant on a draw-7 instead of IGG is because this deck is all about speed. The fact half this deck is either business spells or mana is what makes D. Returns so good. Now we run EtW as a fallback, only if situation warrants it. Against a deck like Solidarity, we would only do this first turn for about ten tokens, but really, you would much rather just kill them turn 1, and make sure they dont get back into the game and kill you turn 3.

Also, 2 Tendrils > 2 EtW. Now Plunge is a very imporant card in this deck. We run a low amount off Tendrils so that if Plunge hits one fo your copies, your Infernal Tutors are still efficient enough to find them so you dont have to was your mana trying to find Infernal Tutor -> Burning Wish -> Tendrils, because Infernal Tutor -> Tendrils is much better, because it's equivilent to Burning Wish -> Tendrils.

Also, every attack step with Dark Confidant is a Tendrils of Agony storm count. Trinket Mage taught us that already, and it's even better with Bob.

[BreathWeapon]

If that's your logic you are solely basing your argument on insecurities. Not to mention some of your examples are flawed, both require the popping of Lion's Eye Diamond. If Lion's Eye Diamond is being popped they won't let the tutor resolve, simple. Empty the Warren wins are just as unprotected as any other win; they counter that final piece of acceleration so you can't cast it. People have realized the deck's weakness is its acceleration and how to hit it. Now that they've realized it, it makes ETW weaker. ETW is also vunerable to the format as a win condition.

Goblins is an aggro-control deck that plays Chalice. Dark Confidant provides card advantage, which is better than anything Xantid Swarm does against aggro. When sided against aggro it’s only a 2 of, because the other two slots are ETW. Even if they do keep in removal for a 2x of it's a horrible judgment on their part. Goblins sideboards out fanatic and gempalm against TES. You got me on lightning bolt; it's a huge card in the format and exists in every major played archetype. C'mon let's be serious your now using cards that are played in tier 2 decks to win an argument that’s based on beating tier 1 decks, it's illogical.

It's hard to make claims on cards you don't play like Diminishing returns. Dark Confidant sure does address hate cards; he gains card advantage and gives you a clock. With card advantage you will find your answer, which is better than a temporary answer. With a clock you can also have a lesser storm count to win, which is a very easy way to beat hate cards such as Chalice. With a clock (Dark Confidant, which also gains the card advantage possible to do this) playing 0cc cards with a Chalice of the Void out and casting Tendrils for 10-12 is just as efficient as waiting to draw a Chain of Vapor.

I don't sideboard ETW vs. Every archetype, in a lot of match-ups I only sideboard it in because it's better than Xantid Swarm. When a card is better than another card vs. a match-up you should probably side it in. It's not a waste of space when it makes your deck much more flexible.

A lot of that doesn't make sense to me.

Goblins is an aggro-control deck? Since when? Aggro-control is Turbo Xerox, Gro, Miracle Gro, GAT, Fish, Threshold or Faerie Stompy, or possibly Suicide Black, B/W, Red Death etc.

Goblins does not SB out Mogg Fanatic, ever, against combo, the first card Goblins SB out against combo is Goblin Ring Leader, followed by utility Goblins and then Gempalm Incinerators.

Whether or not an answer is permanent or not is irrelevant when the deck can end the game in a single turn, and stating that Dark Confidant drawing into Burning Wish is an answer is topical, the amount of turns, damage and mana invested in top decking Burning Wish and casting it for an answer is less efficient than just casting Chain of Vapor and/or Shattering Spree.

Lightning Bolt etc. are relevant when discussing aggro, considering the second most common aggro deck is R/g Beats or Zoo, and neither will SB out its direct damage, it should be taken into consideration.

I did use Diminishing Returns in the MD, and I do use Diminishing Returns in the SB, so I don't think it's hard to comment on the card at all; in fact, I don't remember commenting on the card at all, where did this come from?

I don't think that either of those examples are about being insecure or flawed; I would rather combo off with protection or cast Empty the Warrens than lose to Force of Will (who doesn't mulligan into Force of Will games 2 and 3?). The opponent wont automatically counter acceleration unless he knows you have Empty the Warrens, and if he does, he is going to be losing opportunities to counter the tutors. Also, Force of Will doesn't always work, Empty the Warrens is only 4cc, a single Force of Will can't keep the deck off of 4 mana.

I agree that SBing in Dark Confidant and Empty the Warrens for Xantid Swarm is better than leaving Xantid Swarm in the MD, but that doesn't meen that SBing in Dark Confidant and Empty the Warrens instead of Chain of Vapor or Shattering Spree is the right decision.

[Bryant Cook]

A lot of that doesn't make sense to me.

Goblins is an aggro-control deck? Since when? Aggro-control is Turbo Xerox, Gro, Miracle Gro, GAT, Fish, Threshold or Faerie Stompy, or possibly Suicide Black, B/W, Red Death etc.

Goblins does not SB out Mogg Fanatic, ever, against combo, the first card Goblins SB out against combo is Goblin Ring Leader, followed by utility Goblins and then Gempalm Incinerators.

Whether or not an answer is permanent or not is irrelevant when the deck can end the game in a single turn, and stating that Dark Confidant drawing into Burning Wish is an answer is topical, the amount of turns, damage and mana invested in top decking Burning Wish and casting it for an answer is less efficient than just casting Chain of Vapor and/or Shattering Spree.

Lightning Bolt etc. are relevant when discussing aggro, considering the second most common aggro deck is R/g Beats or Zoo, and neither will SB out its direct damage, it should be taken into consideration.

I did use Diminishing Returns in the MD, and I do use Diminishing Returns in the SB, so I don't think it's hard to comment on the card at all; in fact, I don't remember commenting on the card at all, where did this come from?

I don't think that either of those examples are about being insecure or flawed; I would rather combo off with protection or cast Empty the Warrens than lose to Force of Will (who doesn't mulligan into Force of Will games 2 and 3?). The opponent wont automatically counter acceleration unless he knows you have Empty the Warrens, and if he does, he is going to be losing opportunities to counter the tutors. Also, Force of Will doesn't always work, Empty the Warrens is only 4cc, a single Force of Will can't keep the deck off of 4 mana.

I agree that SBing in Dark Confidant and Empty the Warrens for Xantid Swarm is better than leaving Xantid Swarm in the MD, but that doesn't meen that SBing in Dark Confidant and Empty the Warrens instead of Chain of Vapor or Shattering Spree is the right decision.

Yes, Goblins is an aggro-control deck. Just because it doesn’t have islands doesn’t mean it’s not aggro-control.

I disagree, I’ve tested against a lot of goblin players most of them board out these cards
4x Gemplam incinerator
4x Mogg Fanatic
-2x Ringleader
-1x Tin Street Hooligan/Goblin Tinkerer

It definitely is relevant if the answer is temporary or not, because of the fact you have no extra means of card advantage. You'll have to use more Plunges/Brainstorms and other resources to find Chain of Vapor, than I would have to looking for a 4x of with extra card advantage. Doing all of that takes up so many resources you may not be able to combo out by the time you do find it. Dark Confidant drawing into the single boarded Shattering Spree and/or Burning Wish is much greater and has a higher probability than drawing 2x Chain of Vapor. It’s a fact. You’re failing to mention within these turns/damage taken that you will be hitting them for damage also. You’re also forgetting the card advantage created to find the answers, such as Plunge into Darkness and/or Brainstorm. “Top decking” is by no means the case in this scenario, Dark Confidant creates card advantage with enough card advantage you will draw X. With Plunge/Brainstorm/Infernal Tutor (Revealing Plunge/Brainstorm) you are more than likely to find a 4x in your deck or the sideboarded 1x of with Dark Confidant than a 2x of with no extra means of card advantage.

Lightning bolt is not relevant whatsoever. I refuse to change my deck/sideboarding plans for a Zoo deck which are barely present in the metagame. Lightning bolt sees play in one teir 1 or 1.5 deck and that’s Red Death. Are you saying I shouldn’t sideboard Dark Confidant against Red Death? The card advantage is much needed. Sideboarding out direct damage against TES doesn’t seem like a horrible idea if you have an adequate sideboard.

You mentioned cutting the second Tendrils of Agony and Diminishing Returns for more ETW. You not playing the maindeck Diminishing Returns changes the results of ETW vs. Tendrils of Agony wins. Which is why you win with Empty the Warrens most often, heading back to my example.

That is a matter of being insecure, being afraid to play a card and playing a sub-optimal card in a slot that doesn’t warrant it because you don’t want to see X, and it does change statistics. How are they going to know if you have ETW or not? The safest thing to do if you have no idea how TES is going to win is hitting the acceleration. Which is what your opponent will be doing, keeping the deck off its mana is like taking a wheelchair from a cripple. Reaching four mana all depends on your hand, certain hands you won’t reach four mana, some will, so this is a topical argument.

Now that we’re on the same page with this, I sideboard a single Shattering Spree a lot of the time if I suspect certain hate cards.

[BreathWeapon]

Goblins is not an aggro-control deck; aggro-control is designed to cast a threat and protect it long for the threat to win the game, Goblin's doesn't follow that line of logic at all. If 8 LD cards is the point at which aggro becomes aggro-control, then we mite as well call Extended Boros aggro-control.

Goblins don't SB out Mogg Fanatic, there's no reason to SB out Mogg Fanatic over Goblin Ringleader, that's the SBing of an inept Goblins pilot.

Edit: Burning Wish->Empty the Warrens is a clear indication of Empty the Warrens, other than that, game one the opponent knows the odds of you casting an Empty the Warrens are 16% and game two/three 32% and those odds increase after Brainstorm and Plunge into Darkness. Game one, I think it's a mistake to counter the acceleration, because the odds of them casting a single Empty the Warrens is less than the odds of them casting one of eight tutors.

You can also bait with LED, a lot of people will wait to turn Force of Will into a Mind Twist, only to see an army of Goblins across the table.
I don't see how casting Dark Confidant and drawing cards is a better answer to hate than casting Chain of Vapor and winning against aggro.

I disagree that Zoo and R/g beats aren't in the metagame, go to a 50+ tournament and you will find a lot of home grown aggro with burn.

And yes, if I had to choose between SBing Dark Confidant or Chain of Vapor against Goblins or R/g beats or Zoo, I would SB in Chain of Vapor. Red Death has nothing to do with it, because Red Death isn't aggro, which is what were discussing.

Note: I SB in Chain of Vapor as a 4x for Xantid Swarm against aggro.

There's a line between being insecure and being reckless with combo, and comboing off unprotected as opposed to casting Goblins is being reckless. The odds of Force of Will ending the game is appr 40%, and the odds of the opponent mulliganing into Force of Will are also high. Aggressively "Force Checking" the opponent isn't going to place you in the top 8, you will lose coin flips.

[Bryant Cook]

Goblins is not an aggro-control deck; aggro-control is designed to cast a threat and protect it long for the threat to win the game, Goblin's doesn't follow that line of logic at all. If 8 LD cards is the point at which aggro becomes aggro-control, then we mite as well call Extended Boros aggro-control.

Goblins don't SB out Mogg Fanatic, there's no reason to SB out Mogg Fanatic over Goblin Ringleader, that's the SBing of an inept Goblins pilot.

Edit: Burning Wish->Empty the Warrens is a clear indication of Empty the Warrens, other than that, game one the opponent knows the odds of you casting an Empty the Warrens are 16% and game two/three 32% and those odds increase after Brainstorm and Plunge into Darkness. Game one, I think it's a mistake to counter the acceleration, because the odds of them casting a single Empty the Warrens is less than the odds of them casting one of eight tutors.

You can also bait with LED, a lot of people will wait to turn Force of Will into a Mind Twist, only to see an army of Goblins across the table.
I don't see how casting Dark Confidant and drawing cards is a better answer to hate than casting Chain of Vapor and winning against aggro.

I disagree that Zoo and R/g beats aren't in the metagame, go to a 50+ tournament and you will find a lot of home grown aggro with burn.

And yes, if I had to choose between SBing Dark Confidant or Chain of Vapor against Goblins or R/g beats or Zoo, I would SB in Chain of Vapor. Red Death has nothing to do with it, because Red Death isn't aggro, which is what were discussing.

Note: I SB in Chain of Vapor as a 4x for Xantid Swarm against aggro.

There's a line between being insecure and being reckless with combo, and comboing off unprotected as opposed to casting Goblins is being reckless. The odds of Force of Will ending the game is appr 40%, and the odds of the opponent mulliganing into Force of Will are also high. Aggressively "Force Checking" the opponent isn't going to place you in the top 8, you will lose coin flips.

Goblins by all means is an aggro-control deck, between Wasteland, Port, Tinkerer, Pillar, and even Chalice of the Void. Lists for goblins play pyrokensis and some Swords to Plowshares, they all have controlling elements in them. By your definition Landstill is aggro-control, it plays a factory and protects it.

Is Mon’s Goblin Raider good versus combo? Fanatic is horrible against combo. What wins the combo match-up for goblins is overwhelming the combo player, Lackey-> Ringleader achieves this.

I’d like to know where you get these outrageous numbers from. You are one hundred percent incorrect, countering the acceleration and keeping TES off it’s acceleration is how you win. Not countering acceleration is ludicrous and probably why you think ETW is the nut high. ETW is an easily answered, vulnerable win condition that takes time to win. Waiting a turn and winning with Tendrils is always better than winning in two turns with tokens. The reason you cast Empty the Warrens all the time besides the fact you play three of them is because your opponents don't know what to counter. It's no different from what to Meddling Mage and we all agreed upon acceleration to be the best choice.

I know how to bait counterspells, thank you. Yes, that can occur however, you have to be asking yourself before you combo if there’s a safer way. Running into Force of Will is just as if not more dangerous than running into mass removal. What is an aggro deck without hand disruption going to play that is going to be so significant it doesn’t allow you to combo? You can combo through Chalice 0. Chain of Vapor is a garbage card in TES and I will stand by it. I like how you automatically assume you win after casting Chain of Vapor. Bouncing a threat against RG beats or Zoo is pointless when you can have a productive card.

I was just at a 50+ tournament over the weekend and there were two Zoo decks, are you stating that I should change my deck for a 2x of in the metagame? Against Zoo decks you want to be winning the game ASAP. Dark Confidant provides the card advantage possible to do this while Chain of Vapor might as well read +3 life.

We were discussing decks in the metagame that play Lightning Bolt that we should be concerned with; Red Death happens to be one of them, Zoo is not.

The odds of losing to Force of Will are just as great as the odds of losing to mass removal except your chances are doubled. I haven’t seen any TES in top 8’s with 3 ETW maindeck so that obviously isn’t the case.

[spider900]

Have you ever considered to play the Confidants MD & put the Swarms in the SB?

I think there aren't many decks out there which can do something against you except use Counter or Stifle against you. I that cases I aggree that you really need Xantid Swarm.
But other Combo (except maybe Solidarity) decks do not counter and you want to be faster than they are. So the Confidant gives you a lot of stabilisation to the combo so that you can get it going more reliably.
Against Aggro you definitly do not want to have Swarm MD and when the Confidants are MD then you should not loose against it. Not even against a God-Draw from Gobbos.
I think the MD Confidant is good, because against 2 out of 3 Types of Decks (Aggro & Combo) you don't need to fear counterspells and the Confidant gives you speed & reliability. And he can also bash for 2 each turn you can attack with him. When dropping him 1st Turn he can beat 1-2, maybe 3 Turns. That makes a kill via Tendrils a lot easier, because for each attack with Confidant you need 1 spell less than without him.
I definitely would spend a thought on him MD and test it.

[Bryant Cook]

Hi Spider900, welcome to the source.

Alright, I think you have some misunderstandings. I think you've read about Dark Confidant being SB'd in alot, no? This is only because Xantid is bad against aggro. However, you have the wrong idea on combo. Dark Confidant is awful in this match-up. I'd rather have Xantid Swarm vs. Combo and Control than Dark Confidant, although, Dark Confidant does get sideboarded in against control. Dark Confidant is awful against the main combo deck in the format (Solidarity), he takes too much time for his ability for him to be worthwhile in the match-up. You don't want to give Solidarity time. I've sided in Dark Confidant enough to know that he's not better than Xantid Swarm. Most of the top tier decks play instants that can hurt you and TES is aimed at beating the top tier.

[spider900]

Well, I think you're right. Confidant MD would mean that there would not be any protection MD and this can really cost games.

btw: Does anyone here have tourney experience with this deck? Does any report from this deck at a tourney exist? Because I'm thinking about to build this deck, but it's so hard to play.

[kicks_422]

You just have to get used to it, goldfish until your hands start falling off, and you'll get the hang of it...

There's a recent tourney report by wastedlife in the Tournament Reports and Announcements Forum... You might want to check that out...

[BreathWeapon]

Goblins by all means is an aggro-control deck, between Wasteland, Port, Tinkerer, Pillar, and even Chalice of the Void. Lists for goblins play pyrokensis and some Swords to Plowshares, they all have controlling elements in them. By your definition Landstill is aggro-control, it plays a factory and protects it.

Is Mon’s Goblin Raider good versus combo? Fanatic is horrible against combo. What wins the combo match-up for goblins is overwhelming the combo player, Lackey-> Ringleader achieves this.

I’d like to know where you get these outrageous numbers from. You are one hundred percent incorrect, countering the acceleration and keeping TES off it’s acceleration is how you win. Not countering acceleration is ludicrous and probably why you think ETW is the nut high. ETW is an easily answered, vulnerable win condition that takes time to win. Waiting a turn and winning with Tendrils is always better than winning in two turns with tokens. The reason you cast Empty the Warrens all the time besides the fact you play three of them is because your opponents don't know what to counter. It's no different from what to Meddling Mage and we all agreed upon acceleration to be the best choice.

I know how to bait counterspells, thank you. Yes, that can occur however, you have to be asking yourself before you combo if there’s a safer way. Running into Force of Will is just as if not more dangerous than running into mass removal. What is an aggro deck without hand disruption going to play that is going to be so significant it doesn’t allow you to combo? You can combo through Chalice 0. Chain of Vapor is a garbage card in TES and I will stand by it. I like how you automatically assume you win after casting Chain of Vapor. Bouncing a threat against RG beats or Zoo is pointless when you can have a productive card.

I was just at a 50+ tournament over the weekend and there were two Zoo decks, are you stating that I should change my deck for a 2x of in the metagame? Against Zoo decks you want to be winning the game ASAP. Dark Confidant provides the card advantage possible to do this while Chain of Vapor might as well read +3 life.

We were discussing decks in the metagame that play Lightning Bolt that we should be concerned with; Red Death happens to be one of them, Zoo is not.

The odds of losing to Force of Will are just as great as the odds of losing to mass removal except your chances are doubled. I haven’t seen any TES in top 8’s with 3 ETW maindeck so that obviously isn’t the case.

Goblins is not aggro-control, aggro-control is associated with a specific sub-set of decks; Landstill is not aggro-control because it doesn't cast a single threat and protect it in order to win the game, it controls the game until it can cast a threat and win the game, there's a critical difference. Wasteland, Rishadan Port and Chalice of the Void don't protect threats, they Time Walk your threats. Your implying that Goblins should be categorized with GAT, Threshold and Fish is just confusing the nomenclature.

SBing out Mogg Fanatic instead of Goblin Ringleader is a mistake, card advantage is irrelevant against combo, it's speed that matters, and Mogg Fanatic is one more inexpensive threat that increases the damage of Goblin Piledriver; people have been SBing out Goblin Ringleader against combo since the High Tide match up. If Goblin Ringleader was critical to defeating combo, why would they SB out any number of them?

The numbers aren't rediculous at all, the odds of the opponent casting an uncounterable singleton in the deck aren't high enough in order to risk countering the acceleration instead of countering the tutor, while the odds of the opponent casting a 3x in the deck are. There's no reason to not gain the additional card advantage via countering the tutor instead of countering the acceleration, when the risk vs reward is in your favor.

There is no definitive card to Meddling Mage in this deck, Meddling Mage's target should be based on whether or not it is a pre or post board game and the other cards in your hand. Meddling Mage on Empty the Warrens, Xantid Swarm Infernal Tutor or Burning Wish can be just as affective as Meddling Mage on Dark Ritual or Lion's Eye Diamond with the right cards behind it.

Stating that the odds of the opponent using mass removal are higher than, and no less than double, the odds of counter spells is a ridiculous statement. Compare the number of decks that MD counter spells to the number of decks that MD mass removal, compare the number of decks that MD counter spells to the number of decks that SB mass removal, after the numbers are compiled, they will show you that Force of Will is a greater threat than mass removal.

You have also flip flopped on two previous points,

You stated that countering and maging the acceleration was incorrect when I first suggested it in this thread, and now you are arguing the opposite

You stated that you didn't know how Goblins SBs against combo in this thread.

I don't consider either of those points to be detrimental to the argument, we're all on a learning curve, but I think it's important to point out that no single opinion or observation is inscrutable.

[Nightmare]

Any further remarks pertaining to Goblins' sideboarding strategies or what kind of deck it is will result in warnings. Keep the discussion on topic.

[Bryant Cook]

I agree that the odds of casting a tutor effect are greater than casting ETW, but the percentage for Warrens seems high at 16%. The percentage for ETW vs. Tutor effect is irrelevant when deciding what to counter or Meddling Mage. You also stated earlier in the thread that you should Meddling Mage acceleration, does that make you a “Flip Flopper?” What’s previous in the thread doesn’t matter right now for many reasons. One of them could possibly be that people didn’t know how to play against the deck, but that doesn’t matter now. Countering the acceleration doesn’t even allow TES to get started. I’m skilled enough with the deck when if an opponent waits until the last few cards to counter I’ll end up winning. It’s really not that difficult.

There’s no definitive card you should name, however, there’s types of cards you should name. These types of cards are called acceleration.

Either way, you would lose to both. Force of Will on the appropriate acceleration piece or mass removal. You claim all this about aggro-control, do you play against it? A lot of it plays EE, Force of Will and Stifle; you don’t want to be trying to win with tokens.

[MattH]

Wouldn't goblins definitely sideboard out SGCs before either Fanatic OR Ringleader?

I wasn't kidding. Warned. ~ Nightmare

[Ewokslayer]

I have been testing the deck recently and have been fairly frustrated with Brainstorm since the deck has little in the way of shuffle effects.
I was thinking of replacing them with Portents (I have looked into Careful Study and Serum Visions and been disappointed in their performance)
Portent digs deeper and can shuffle your deck if the top 3 suck. Obviously not drawing the card right away and not removing crap from your hand are points against Portent but:
How often do you combo off the turn that you cast Brainstorm?
Should you be keeping a hand that is filled with crappy cards that require a Brainstorm to be good considering you can't shuffle the cards away.

[Nightmare]

I've found that many times, you see a hand like this:

Infernal Tutor
Rite of Flame
IGG / DReturns
Plunge
Ritual
Brainstorm
Land

In this situation, Brainstorm is what makes the hand keepable. The ability to Brainstorm into either a Mox, an LED, a Petal, etc, and then put the dead IGG/Returns back on top can very often win the game on the spot. If not, you can bury the dead card, and often allow yourself the win with the Hellbent Tutor or the tutor->Ritual, Ritual Ritual plunge the next turn. Brainstorm's ability to clear out dead cards that get in the way of Infernal is invaluable in my experience.

[Kronicler]

I've also experienced many situations similar to that one. One such example occurred in a recent tourney I went to. It was game 3 against BW Confidant, he goes 1st turn ritual -> specter. I went brainstorm, drawing me the LED and I won. While yes, sometimes brainstorm can screw you because we don't have many shuffle effects (eg. land land xantid against BW Conf. ) the ability to draw 3 cards at instant speed for 1 mana is just to amazing to pass up. Also, just as nightmare said, the ability to get even 1 card out of your hand for hellbent or to tutor up after cracking some LEDs is also invaluable.

Kronicler