One of the greatest things about plunge is that you can use it how YOU want to. Nightshade, you seemed to imply that your most common use for it was as a turn before set up card. I definately do that a lot, but more often I will use it during my combo turn, completely nulifying the life loss. And that is the thing, people play plunge very differently. You definately make a very valid point about the life loss with ETW, and I have lost in situations very similar to that before, but if you know before hand that you are going to ETW, then plunging for 12+ is probably a poor play. You can run into situations where you are going to combo with tendrils IF you hit the LED on the plunge, then you don't and you are forced to ETW, but that doesn't occur frequently enough to use a different card. I am certainly open to exploring other options, but, as emidln so eloquently said, many of the things you suggested do not find LED, and that is a very big problem. Plunges ability to find LED is what allows tutor heavy hands to combo off. If you are holding plunge + infernal + infernal/bwish and you can make 6 mana then you can win only because plunge can find an LED. In that situation (which I find to occur on a regular basis) if you swapped plunge for any of the other tutors that you are suggesting then you wouldn't be able to win (need 7 mana to win with intuition). Another thing that many people, including myself up until a couple weeks ago, overlook is plunge's 2nd ability. Some decks will stabalize with creatures after an ETW for 8-14 guys. In my experience, the deck that does this most often is Meathooks, and in this type of situation plunges 2nd ability allows you to dig through your entire deck for a tendrils to finish off the last few points of damage.
Kronicler
Team Info-Ninjas: Catchphrases so secret, I don't even know what they are!
Alright, I crunched some numbers on Plunge because you guys seem to like it too much.
Here are the results using the HYPGEOMDIST command in excel. If you don't know it you can look it up if you care that much. What I used for values are N=0 Z=Variable X=4 Y=52 I took the result and subtracted it from 1 and multiplied by 100. Basically this function determined the probability of drawing an LED off a Plunge.
What this test is a turn two Plunge (52 cards in the deck) with zero LED currently in hand drawing a variable amount of cards. The second column is if you already have one LED and there are only 3 left in the deck (X=3).
#Drawn %Chance ---------- #Drawn %Chance
1 _____ 7.6% --------------- 1 _____ 5.7%
2 _____ 14.9% -------------- 2 _____ 11.3%
3 _____ 21.7% -------------- 3 _____ 16.6%
4 _____ 28.1% -------------- 4 _____ 21.7%
5 _____ 34.1% -------------- 5 _____ 26.6%
6 _____ 39.7% -------------- 6 _____ 31.3%
7 _____ 44.9% -------------- 7 _____ 35.7%
8 _____ 49.8% -------------- 8 _____ 40.0%
9 _____ 54.4% -------------- 9 _____ 44.1%
10 _____ 58.6% ------------- 10 _____ 48.0%
11 _____ 62.5% ------------- 11 _____ 51.7%
12 _____ 66.2% ------------- 12 _____ 55.2%
13 _____ 69.6% ------------- 13 _____ 58.6%
14 _____ 72.7% ------------- 14 _____ 61.8%
15 _____ 75.6% ------------- 15 _____ 64.8%
16 _____ 78.2% ------------- 16 _____ 67.6%
17 _____ 80.6% ------------- 17 _____ 70.3%
18 _____ 82.8% ------------- 18 _____ 72.9%
19 _____ 84.8% ------------- 19 _____ 75.3%
I would say the average Plunge is around 8 and that only gives you a 49.9% chance of getting an LED. That's really not that great.
With Mystical Tutor I would much rather have a 100% chance of getting what ever I needed. That includes Burning Wish, Infernal and Dark Ritual or Cabal instead of LED. I understand that LED is ‘the nuts’ but I would much rather have a 100% chance of getting what I need. When you need Burning Wish to kill a peace of hate you'll enjoy having 8 MD wishes.
The main disadvantage of Mystical Tutor is the fact that it can't get LED but can guarantee a Dark Ritual 100% of the time and that’s not a bad filler. Cabal Ritual is just as good as LED post threshold too. Plunge really can generally only get you a LED half the time at a great risk of life.
Now to reply to people:
This is a 5 color deck - 12 lands produce blue, if you haven't realized that yet I really don't know what to say to you without flaming.Originally Posted by emidln
Actually this is a false claim. I would say IGGY can definitely abuse LED better then this deck. It can get 2 LED and Infernal Tutor/IGG combo ie - Infernal breaking LED, get IGG, play IGG, get 2 LED & Tutor rinse and repeat till storm 16 or more, one thing this deck cannot do.
Salvagers also abuses LED more in the fact it goes infinite with it.
There can also be a statement made that Belcher is better at abusing LED because it has the same # of Tutors plus the activation on Belcher can be paid by an LED. (This deck can't have a Tendrils in hand and break LED to pay for part of Tendrils) Also has good Welder synergy.
So we must find something that has a 50% shot get getting a LED, havening that over a 100% chance of getting Dark Ritual? Seems poor.
I have never had this scenario come up while playing. I have sacked Xantid Swarm to Plunge after they attack as a desperate last move before but that's about it.
Two final notes IGGY has the ability to play Plunge but it doesn't because the card is suboptimal. We should recognize this.
And last has anyone tired Grim Tutor in the MD. I know that 3 mana is a ton but the ability to get anything in the deck is powerful. It only cost one more then Plunge and so much more powerful. I have mixed feeling on it.
Have anyone considered Tainted Pact as a substitut to Plunge into Darkness. It seems like it could be a good set-up without the drawback of losing a lot of life. But I havnt tested it, so I dont know
/Henrik
Why do you specifically need a second LED? I think you misunderstand the problem. Plunge only needs to get LED when it is the quickest path to a sure win (usually by comboing with a tutor). A second LED is never required, and can always be a different acceleration piece (indeed, why not just break LED in response to plunge and look for a tutor/enabler)?
When looking specifically for an LED you can plunge for for the maximum possible (I've defined it several pages ago, as has Bryant I think) since the only time that you NEED an LED is when it causes you to instant win. In most situations, you are looking for a range of cards. Basically, you want a class of card most of the time (although you'd normally rather have LED over any other accelerant). For more info on this, see my post on Plunge vs Spoils.I would say the average Plunge is around 8 and that only gives you a 49.9% chance of getting an LED. That's really not that great.
Your statistics comparing chances of getting LED to chance of getting Dark Ritual are severely misleading. You have a 50% chance of finding specifically LED if you only plunge for average. However, if you specifically need an LED you will plunge for MAX. If you only need a Dark Ritual, or more generally, if you need anything in a class of spells that generates BBB or nets at least 2 mana, then your plunge can possibly find LED, Dark Rit, Rite of Flame, and sometimes even Cabal Ritual, depending on the circumstances.With Mystical Tutor I would much rather have a 100% chance of getting what ever I needed. That includes Burning Wish, Infernal and Dark Ritual or Cabal instead of LED. I understand that LED is ‘the nuts’ but I would much rather have a 100% chance of getting what I need. When you need Burning Wish to kill a peace of hate you'll enjoy having 8 MD wishes.
The main disadvantage of Mystical Tutor is the fact that it can't get LED but can guarantee a Dark Ritual 100% of the time and that’s not a bad filler. Cabal Ritual is just as good as LED post threshold too. Plunge really can generally only get you a LED half the time at a great risk of life.
Also, a Cabal Ritual is only as good as an LED if you don't need to cast Burning Wish, Diminishing Returns, or Empty the Warrens off it. In case you didn't notice, we cast those three a lot.
What does getting a Dark Ritual 100% of the time next turn do for you if you need LED (or even Dark Ritual) now?
TES may appear to be a 5 color deck, and it does in fact have lands that can produce all the colors, but it cannot produce colors that aren't Black/Red without significantly slowing itself down. If you play a blue/green spell at all, it is turn 1. Only when things go awry are you attempting to play Brainstorm later than turn 1, or actually cast a Diminishing Returns. This is because you cannot realistically guarantee more than 2-3 mana sources by turn 3 with only 19-20 available in the deck. You generally need both black and red mana to combo out, and using a land for blue mana takes away from the black and red mana you need to startup. I suppose if you happen to hit your land drops every turn and have extra lotus petals hanging around then this could work out for you, but for everyone else, it's bad.This is a 5 color deck - 12 lands produce blue, if you haven't realized that yet I really don't know what to say to you without flaming.
Play any spellActually this is a false claim. I would say IGGY can definitely abuse LED better then this deck. It can get 2 LED and Infernal Tutor/IGG combo ie - Infernal breaking LED, get IGG, play IGG, get 2 LED & Tutor rinse and repeat till storm 16 or more, one thing this deck cannot do.
Play LED
Play LED
Play Infernal Tutor, cracking 2 LEDs, finding IGG
Play IGG getting LED, LED, Infernal
Play LED
Play LED
Play Infernal Tutor, cracking 2 LEDs for RRRBBB, finding Burning Wish
Play Burning Wish (BBBR), finding Tendrils of Agony
Play Tendrils with lethal storm
Seems like TES is just as good as Iggy Pop as doing this. Additionally, you have hands where you go accel, accel, led, wish/tutor (break led for UUU) and draw7, something Iggy Pop simply cannot do.
Salvagers has 7 cards maindeck that combo with LED. 4 Living Wish and 3 Salvagers. 7 < 15 ( 12x tutor, 1 IGG, 1x Diminishing Returns, 1x Tomb of Urami)Salvagers also abuses LED more in the fact it goes infinite with it.
I'd argue that by playing Tendrils you can't fail to kill your opponent, but I have a slightly better argument. No Belcher list that isn't a hybrid storm deck (see SI, or Belcher/Tendrils threads) runs a full complement of tutors. At most, any one will run 4x Spoils/Plunge and 4x Infernal Tutor/Gamble. Very few will ever run Burning Wish unless they are a hybrid Tendrils deck since Burning Wish definitely does not find Belcher. Additionally, very few modern belcher lists run Welder since EtW does Welder's job a lot better while making fewer enemy cards relevant. Even when Welder was played, it wasn't heavily played maindeck in Legacy.There can also be a statement made that Belcher is better at abusing LED because it has the same # of Tutors plus the activation on Belcher can be paid by an LED. (This deck can't have a Tendrils in hand and break LED to pay for part of Tendrils) Also has good Welder synergy.
What does getting a Dark Ritual 100% of the time next turn do for you if you need LED (or even Dark Ritual) now?So we must find something that has a 50% shot get getting a LED, havening that over a 100% chance of getting Dark Ritual? Seems poor.
Perhaps you should spend some more time thinking about what Iggy Pop and what TES are trying to do, and then how they go about their gameplan. Actually, you don't need to, because I'm feeling "typeative" this morning.Two final notes IGGY has the ability to play Plunge but it doesn't because the card is suboptimal. We should recognize this.
Iggy Pop doesn't play Plunge into Darkness because they focus on assembling exactly 3 cards against any deck not playing Force of Will (and they try for 4 when playing against FoW decks (the extra being Xantid Swarm or Orim's Chant). Using Plunge to find specific cards all of the time is generally a bad idea (since usually there are multiple cards that work in your situation) and thus they prefer to play cards like Mystical Tutor and Intuition to find extra LEDs and Infernal Tutors to combo off. Recently, myself and others have been experimenting with Grim Tutor to help filter stray rituals into real combo pieces for increased goldfish capacity and increased resiliency against control. However, the role of Grim Tutor in Iggy Pop, in fact, any of their tutors is vastly different from the role of tutors in TES.
In TES we look to generate several storm and then tutor for an enabler, be it IGG or Diminishing Returns (or even ETW/Tendrils). While Iggy Pop can and does do this some times, their quickest and most efficient path to victory is to assemble 2x LED/1x Infernal Tutor, which is what they will use their tutors for first if given the opportunity. Grim Tutor's 3cc in Iggy Pop doesn't really matter since all they want to do is find the extra combo piece, where in here, we are really looking to chain ritual effects into a tutor into an enabler into some more ritual effects and a kill card. Our primary gameplan is Iggy Pop's secondary gameplan. Incidentally, our "oops, I win" 2x LED/1x Tutor scenario is a secondary (even tertiary) gameplan since we lack the pieces to efficiently assemble this outside of pure luck.
BZK! - Storm Boards
Been there, tried that, still casting Doomsday.
Drawing my deck for 0 mana since 2013.
Plunge into Darkness is not Spoils of the Vault, even if Plunge into Darkness doesn't reveal a Lion's Eye Diamond, you still have an equal chance of revealing a Dark Ritual, Cabal Ritual, Right of Flame etc. When you Plunge into Darkness, you should be searching for a set of cards and not a specific card.
I Plunge into Darkness for 8-15 cards, depending on the board position, and these are the sets of cards I look for;
Disruption and/or counter bait
Xantid Swarm
Burning Wish
Alternate win condition
Empty the Warrens
Burning Wish
Tutor
Infernal Tutor
Burning Wish
Acceleration
Lion's Eye Diamond
Dark Ritual
Cabal Ritual (with Threshold)
Right of Flame (#2)
Land
City of Brass
Gemstone Mine
Yes, Mystical Tutor guarantees you find the card you want, at the cost of never being able find a Xantid Swarm, LED, land, -1 card disadvantage and showing your opponent the card you found. Not being able to find LED decreases the deck's explosiveness, not being able to find a land decreases the deck's stability, not being able to find Xantid Swarm decreases the deck's aggro-control match up, not being able to draw a card decreases the deck's "everything" and showing your opponent your card decreases the deck's surprise value.
@ Tainted Pact
What are the odds of revealing a 4x twice?
Sure, with Mystical you can find 100% of the time your ritual or cabal. But with Plunge if you don't find LED in the top X cards, you can find another accelerator like ritual, rite or cabal. So it's the same of mystical, but more powerful because you can find primarly LED and also because Plunge doesn't give card disavantage.The main disadvantage of Mystical Tutor is the fact that it can't get LED but can guarantee a Dark Ritual 100% of the time and that’s not a bad filler. Cabal Ritual is just as good as LED post threshold too. Plunge really can generally only get you a LED half the time at a great risk of life.
Don't you use cabal pit or tomb of urami?This is a 5 color deck - 12 lands produce blue, if you haven't realized that yet I really don't know what to say to you without flaming.
Don't you remember that blue <<< red / black because these colours give you acceleration?
So it can happen that with only 2 lands on the board and many rituals effects you can't play mystical/brainstorm where you can play a plunge.
"u" is not a word. "You" is a word. This is not AIM, please use proper grammar. ~ Nightmare
The E.P.I.C. Syndicate: I mean, if they play a lullaby for babies they should at least play the Monster Mash when somebody dies.
The first column is with four in the deck (X=4), the second column in with three in the deck. I did the numbers on both. Ignore the second column if you don't think you'll ever plunge for a second LED, I never referenced that column in any part of my argument.
Simply not true
Plunge for Ritual get a net of zero acceleration? Sounds solid.
Mystical Tutor is really only good on the first turn. That’s when you cast it, that’s when you have the mana for it. It becomes significantly worse then Plunge on the turn you’re trying to go off.
Mystical Tutor works like a proxy mulligan for one card in your hand most of the time. How many times do you look at a hand and saw if it only had one more peace of acceleration this hand would be great, or if only I had a Burning Wish then this hand would be the nuts. It "optimizes" hands into getting exactly what you need in order to combo. It cycles for the perfect card to allow the hand to go off on turn 2.
They don't play Plunge because they want LED? You’re kind of making my point for me, IGGY players/deck builders agree that Plunge is a poor tutor to find LED or Infernal Tutor.
At finding land, let us analyze that. Starting form first turn with no lands, don't keep that hand. First Turn one land: you must Ritual then Plunge to find a land, wasting life and 2 decent cards. That would be a misplay. Turn two (you have two lands) in play and you plunge for a third, that is still a misplay because you should be Plunging for acceleration to use when going off. To say that Plunge gets land means that you’re a bad player and shouldn't be used as a valid counterargument to Mystical Tutor.
EDIT: There is only one scenario where searching for land would be the right play and that’s if you have one land in play and a mox. That 'might' be the right move depending on the hand but getting acceleration for the next turn still probably better.
At finding Xantid is also a poor argument. When do you need Xantid? Against aggro-control. When is a really poor choice to use a large Plunge? Against aggro-control! Using a large Plunge to find Xantid doesn't happen because you'll be killed too easily, especially if they counter/swords it. If you plunge to get Xantid you need 3 Mana on the table to play it that turn or you must waste an acceleration piece to cast it that turn. So from the turn you cast plunge generally you will have to wait 2 more turns before it becomes effective, two turns is a lot of damage to take from an aggro-control player. So again you can't Plunge for more then about 6 against them. That’s only a 40% chance of getting one.
Mystical Tutor can give a round about way of getting disruption in the form of Burning Wish -> Duress. That is again a 100% chance over a 40% but has a +1 mana investment.
EDIT: I'm sorry I meant to say 10 lands.Don't you use cabal pit or tomb of urami?
I understand that card disadvantage is bad but sometimes it's necessary. Should we all stop playing FoW because it's card disadvantage there for it's a bad card? Heck no! There are many circumstances where the disadvantaged in the number of cards it outweighed by the quality - which Mystical Tutor provides quality - getting exactly what you need [minus LED (Which Plunge doesn't really get you either)].
Last edited by nightshade81; 03-14-2007 at 01:55 PM.
I have been goldfishing this deck for awhile now, and there are 2 slots I am still not comfortable with, those being the 4th plunge, and the 4th chrome mox. I have found that hands with either 2 plunges or 2 moxes to be underwhelming. How would a (albeit more janky looking) list with -1 plunge, -1 mox, +1 mystical tutor, +1 simian spirit guide fare? I have done no play testing with these changes, but what do you think?
Your logic is flawed,
How is Mystical Tutor for Dark Ritual a better play than Plunge into Darkness for Dark Ritual? You pay U and one card for B->BBB on your next turn, as opposed to 1B for B->BBB on the same turn or your next turn, giving you the option to either net storm or mana (Do you have any idea how often you cast Infernal Tutor for an additional Dark Ritual or Right of Flame or Burning Wish for an additional Right of Flame just for the storm count?). Mystical Tutor for Dark Ritual is worse than Plunge into Darkness for Dark Ritual, because you are automatically passing the turn, and you are losing a card on your next turn, which means you are netting 0 mana and losing storm (U for Mystical Tutor, B for Dark Ritual puts you at UB for BBB, and you can subtract appr .5 mana and 1 storm from the card you didn't draw)
That's just taking into account Dark Ritual, if you find Lion's Eye Diamond, you have already improved your position. Plunge into Darkness for Dark Ritual is better than Mystical Tutor for Dark Ritual, the 50 percent chance of finding LED makes it that much better.
When you said that Plunge into Darkness for Xantid Swarm was a bad play against aggro-control, I immediately lost all respect for your opinion. If you are afraid of losing 8 life to aggro-control, play another deck. You need to get over the "I must Plunge into Darkness for a specific card," when you Plunge into Darkness against aggro-control, you are looking for either Empty the Warrens, Burning Wish or Xantid Swarm; Empty the Warrens to disregard counters, Burning Wish to bait Force of Will, Xantid Swarm to bait Force of Will or disregard Stifle/Orim's Chant etc.
Plunge into Darkness for a land is for any one good enough to realize that you need permanent mana sources to play around Daze.
Don't tell me what is and isn't a good or bad play with this deck, I've been playing it just as long as Wastedlife has.
I admit that I was reluctant with Plunge the first time I played with this deck. I tried Mystical Tutor, Tainted Pact, and Spoils of the Vault, with me being very stubborn about Spoils for a while, it being able to find what exact card I needed.
When I tried out Plunge after the people in this thread (the ones who know what they're talking about) advocated it so much, it dramatically changed the way I play the deck for the better. The cards I were using in Plunge's spot were Tutors which were very restrctive (Mystical can't get LED's and Xantids, Spoils is dangerous, and Tainted Pact was so bad in a deck with loads of 4-ofs), and didn't really push the deck over the top for me.
Plunge is a cantrip - you sometimes get what you want, but you're sure you'd get something useful. The deck is designed with such a critical mass of rituals, tutors, and enablers that you're bound to get what you want in the next 10ish cards of the deck. You're never casting Plunge for an LED or Infernal Tutor, you're casting it for acceleration or tutors, or whatever is good enough. Playing with Plunge also gives the driver of the deck more options, which is never a bad thing in such a deck like this. It made me play smarter as well.
I was lucky with Spoils the first few weeks with it, but the risk started catching up with me and I started killing myself more often. Tainted Pact was just not good at all, as often I never got what I really wanted from it. Mystical Tutor was good only when cast EOT Turn 1 - not any good after a Returns or in the mid-game (Turn 3-4). Yes, this deck wants to win early, but being able to do so (against aggro, generally) wouldn't matter with a Mystical Tutor or a Plunge. Against aggro-control or control, letting them see what you searched for is a liability.
For a deck that's based on speed, Mystical Tutor is better. This deck is not solely based on speed - it also has resiliency and flexibiltiy. This is where Plunge shines.
The Source: Your Source for "The Source: Your Source for..." cliche.
Smart guy, I said that
Learn to read you illiterate fuck. Then you might be able to appreciate the finer points of syntax. Obviously that the Plunge for Xantid is the best play you can make with Plunge in that match-up. My statement was made to counter your argument not the play. Don't obviously misquote me you prick.
Learn to debate without insulting people. Warned for flaming. - Zilla
The summary of my point was that you couldn’t reliably get Xantid especially since you can't afford a large plunge.
With Mystical Tutor I run one MD Chant which Mystical finds without trouble and allows me to go off without loosing 8 life in the process against a deck that puts a ton of pressure on us.
Mystical Tutor gets both ETW, Wish, and has the option to get Chant. Which is equivalent to what you just said expect that it picks exactly which one it wants. You also don't loose a boatload of life for nothing if the Chant/Xantid is countered.
Actually it's not Daze but FoW that makes getting land better. If you would get land with Plunge instead of Dark Ritual with Mystical, then both play around Daze fine. FoW on the other hand will cause a fizzle and you'll loose the Dark Ritual while you would have kept the land in the Plunge scenario.
Just because you have played the deck a long time doesn't mean every play you make is right, it doesn't even guarantee that you'll be a good player.
Mystical Tutor is flexible; it can get Burning Wish the most flexible card in the deck. And not cost you 8 life in the process.
I will admit that is far inferior to Plunge on the fundamental turn but to say Plunge is more flexible then Mystical Tutor is a mistake.
Last edited by Zilla; 03-14-2007 at 05:00 AM.
I continue to make the DUMBEST mistakes....
High score..what does that mean? Did I break the game?
Tranquility is a sorcery and thus fetchable with Burning Wish.
BZK! - Storm Boards
Been there, tried that, still casting Doomsday.
Drawing my deck for 0 mana since 2013.
How so? Mystical Tutor can get instants and sorceries, while Plunge can get acceleration or tutors. Paying 8 life to get a Wish won't matter when you'll win with it next turn or the turn you Plunge.
Also, giving your opponent info on what you have in hand is bad.
The Source: Your Source for "The Source: Your Source for..." cliche.
No, Plunge into Darkness for Xantid Swarm is not the best play you can make in that match up, you can Plunge into Darkness for Empty the Warrens or Burning Wish, and you will receive relative results. You don't need to Plunge into Darkness for 15 in order to find a specific card, because there is always another card that performs the same role in your deck.
If you want to play with Mystical Tutor and Orim's Chant, I suggest you play IGGY POP instead of TES.
@Plunge getting "acceleration and tutors" Mystical gets every Tutor in the deck and the second best acceleration the deck has. And not randomly and not at the cost of life.How so? Mystical Tutor can get instants and sorceries, while Plunge can get acceleration or tutors.
@Flexibility Mystical Tutor can get every one-of in the deck and Burning Wish the most Flexible card in the deck.
This is how I look at Mystical Tutor
For Anti-Control you have 9 MD hate cards
4 Xantid Swarm
4 Mystical Tutor
1 Orim's Chant
(Not counting Burning Wish -> Duress)
That more then doubles the amount of Anti-Control cards. This has to increase our chances against our worse match-up aggro-control.
For Anti-Hate cards you have 8 MD answers
4 Burning Wish
4 Mystical Tutors
When Mystical Tutor is not getting you the perfect card for that match-up it well get whatever you are missing in "acceleration and tutors."
It's also very good against discard and generally will put an IGGY on top of the library to allow you to get back all of the cards you where just forced to discard and allowing you to win.
@Seeing the card. It really doesn't matter. At a deck w/o Cabal or counters it doesn't matter at all. Against a deck with Cabal you just cast Mystical at the end of the turn and go off with the card you tutored for. Against counters hypothetically if they didn't get to see what you got they would assume a must-counter. Which is what you’re going to get anyways, that or an acceleration peace. The only thing that truly matters is not letting control know that you are going for the double Tendrils. With this deck and that’s very rare, but a good strat against them. (EDIT: one other scenario where you Tutor for an ETW they might counter the acceleration on the next Turn) And this really shouldn't be to big of an issue since the other 2 Tutors in this deck also let your opponent know what you are getting.
If I wanted to play IGGY POP I would play IGGY POP. But I don't. I'm currently playing TES because it's more challenging and fun. All I'm trying to do by adding one Chant and Mystical Tutors is improve the deck. And that certainly improve this decks worst match-up.
Last edited by nightshade81; 03-15-2007 at 02:59 AM.
If it can't get the best, then it isn't the best slot for the job. And while not random nor at the cost of life, if gets the card immediately, which at least allows you to combo the turn you draw it.@Plunge getting "acceleration and tutors" Mystical gets every Tutor in the deck and the second best acceleration the deck has. And not randomly and not at the cost of life.
So you clutter the maindeck with useless cards like Orim's Chant to make the deck's draws infinately worse, instead of just Plunging for Xantid Swarm. I don't understand.All I'm trying to do by adding one Chant and Mystical Tutors is improve the deck. And that certainly improve this decks worst match-up.
Oh, and Mystical Tutor doesn't "improve" the deck, it slows it down.
Infinitely worse? How the hell do you come up with infinitely worse? Seriously? Seriously? One card now makes the deck's draws infinitely worse? ONE CARD?!!! One freaking card.
That might have been the worst response I have ever received.
What do you consider drawing Xantid's against decks that don't have counters/chants? If you are truly concerned with the addition of one more anti-control card cut one Xantid and the deck remains the same. Still infinitely worse? Now that we go back down from 5 "useless" cards to 4 were you have it at?
Now I'm going to see how I can miss-use the word infinite. The infinite amount of infinite criticism against the infinite Mystical Tutor's infinite ability has only been matched by the infinite amount of infinitely awesome and infinitely cool post of infinite infinity. Then there was an infant that was INFINITE. He could fly too, infinitely.
I have explained why twice why Mystical Tutor -> Chant is better but I guess I can do it again.
1. Plunging for Xantid is against aggro-control can't be a large Plunge because in this match-up your life matters. They generally will have counters and put you on a fast clock. If you plunge for 12 and they counter/swords Xantid and drop a Mongoose you die in 3 turns.
2. Since you can't Plunge for a large amount you have a largely decreased probability of drawing the Xantid. (6life = 40% chance)
3. Must have three mana on the table to Plunge + Play Xanid the same turn, or waste a peace of acceleration before getting to see if you got a Xantid off the plunge (generally a bad idea). Or you must cast and play it the next turn. That means it takes a total of 3 turns before a Xantid become active from the original Plunge.
Loose life from Plunge + low probability + give aggro-control turns = Awesome Sauce
So give up all the pro's of Mystical Tutor for a roughly 50% chance at LED? Truly worth it.
Upkeep Mystical Tutor -> Dark Ritual gets you the same storm and amount of acceleration as Plunge -> LED on the same turn. Although generally thats not the best way to use Mystical.
Generally speaking seeing either Plunge/Mystical in your opening hand means you don't have a first turn kill unless the other 6 and pull it of by themselves. What Mystical does is set up for the perfect turn two hand. Plunge generally can't do that. Therefore I believe Mystical Tutor to be faster. And I'm not alone on this point.
There are probably many people that would agree with Mystical Tutor being "faster" then Plunge mainly because it costs half the mana.
It is also true that a top deck Plunge is better then a Mystical Tutor by far on the turn you plan to go off. That’s the only time it's "slower" then Plunge. But the odds of that are relatively low. (Considerably less then the odds of not getting an LED off Plunge)
Don't expect my to reply to this thread anymore, the amount of infinitely awesome responses has gotten to me. And just because I can INFINITELY!!! INFINITELY!!! INFINITELY!!!
We'll hold you to this statement. Thanks!
BZK! - Storm Boards
Been there, tried that, still casting Doomsday.
Drawing my deck for 0 mana since 2013.
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