No shit, as if we didn't use M.Tutor when we first started; the hubris of a single person assuming that such an obvious tutor was never considered in that slot is startling. Even if M.Tutor>Plunge, and that's debatable, -1 card advantage and 0% chance of LED or Land isn't worth it.
As an aside, an interesting MD and/or SB to consider is Sylvan Library; it serves as a 1G Necropotence, sacrificing 8 life for 2 cards and free Brainstorms or 16 life for 4 cards and free Brainstorms. It's similar to Dark Confidant, except it gains twice as much card advantage, twice as fast at twice the life, and it can't be removed via Swords to Plowshares.
The fastest Threshold can do 4 damage is if it wins the coin flip, casts Meddling Mage on the second turn and attacks twice (turn 4) which means Sylvan Library can still draw 3 cards and Brainstorm.
I can't say it's superior to Dark Confidant or Night Whispers, but unlike Dark Confidant or Night Whispers, Sylvan Library is a must counter card.
I've been considering this; the only issue that comes up is that Confidant can deal a bit of damage and block (which is relevent in some matchups). Would you just replace the Confidants in the board for this if you wanted to use it?
By the way, it's also worth noting that Library can't kill you--which is nice.
I wouldn't cut Dark Confidant for it, ever. However, I currently have 2 open slots in my SB. I really dislike Defense Grid, so I'll be testing Library and getting back to everyone.
Depends, I have used them in the SB, replacing Dark Confidant, and in the MD, replacing Brainstorm, to affect the Threshold match up; I prefer Sylvan Library to Dark Confidant, if for no other reason than Threshold can't Swords to Plowshares it. Even as a singleton, Sylvan Library is a must counter bomb that increases the threat density of your deck.
The other really, really interesting thing about Sylvan Library is that you can float cards on top of your deck against discard or get multiple Brainstorms out of it with a shuffle effect, which makes it useful even when you don't have the life to draw 4.
Let me start off by saying I’m new to this deck, but this week I finally got the cards to play it and I am very impressed.I have done a little bit of testing preboard vs gro, solidarity, and goblins. The cards that hurt me the worst were.
--FoW/Daze/Counter/Disrupt--Xantid/burning wish for duress helped a lot, however if I didn’t know what I was playing against I found it hard to go off using LED for fear of counters.
--Engineered explosives/mage on tendrills = a loss against gro.
--Wasteland followed by Sharpshooter killing 10 warrens dudes ruined me in one game against goblins.
--Other things I've noticed:
I am finding that it is very difficult to go off without LED and I am almost always wishing for it as a topdeck. Most of the plunges I cast are looking for LED.
As I am new to this deck I would like you to correct me about the following strategies:
From my playtesting I have found that this deck has two ways to win when trying for a lethal tendrils.
1. IGG win = get a tutor on the stack with one or two LED's out and discard your hand (if you used burning wish you need tutor in yard).
(Two LED ex.)
City of Brass
Lotus petal
Infernal tutor
LED
LED
x
x
play: COB, LP, LED, LED, IT (sac LEDs) for IGG, IGG (IT LED LED, 2 black floating), LED, LED, IT (sac LEDs) for IT, IT for Tendrils, Tendrils for 20.
I found that in order to use IGG with 1 Dark rit and 1 LED you must either float 7 after so that you can grab another card or have another card to add to storm count.
(One LED ex.)
City of Brass
Lotus Petal
Lotus Petal
Dark Ritual
LED
Infernal Tutor
x
Play: CoB, LP, LP, DR, LED, IT(sac LED 6 in pool) for IGG, IGG (DR, LED, IT 2 float), DR 4, LED, IT (sac LED 5) for tendrils for 20 b floating,
I find myself usually winning through IGG. I have had trouble with hands like:
CoB
Rite of Flame
Burning Wish
LED
LED
Plunge
x
x
or
CoB
Lotus Petal
Plunge
LED
LED
x
x
The problem is that I can’t guarantee a plunge will get me what I need; Tendrils/Warrens or Iggy/Diminishing returns. Also I have to be wary of my life total because if I miss a large plunge I'm dead the next turn.
2. Diminishing Returns Win = usually requires 1 or 2 LED. I have found that the more B/R mana you can float the better chances you will have of wining.
Problems I have been having with DReturns:
I draw into a hand of only acceleration—I cry.
The mana I floated is not the right color for the acceleration in hand—I cry again.
The only tutor I see is a plunge and I have already plunged or I cant reach a Tendrils/Warrens
When going for warrens (usually post board) it is to avoid fast hate like chalice/crypt/Leyline and I try to go off ASAP. Often I will only get 8 or 10 goblins off warrens but I find that is usually enough to swarm. (Is this the right or should I wait until I can get 20+ and risk them droping a chalice/lab/other hate.
Winning with Tomb of Urami = a big commitment. I am often scared to commit to this land in fear of a STP or something related. It has won me a couple of games though. I find it really nice for when I cant quite finish them with a tendrils and I have a chrome mox in play so I wont be waiting for mana sources.
Dislikes:
I really don’t like plunge, I almost always use it to get LED and I always seem to run into multiple copies (I know they feed chrome mox, but so does most of the rest of the deck).
I’m also not a big fan of Cabal ritual. I RARELY get to use it with threshold and its 1B cost sucks because it drains other colors out of my pool. I know we need to get bb for tendrils, but I wish there was something else.
I have mixed feelings about brainstorm in the deck because it is bad in multiples lack of shuffle effects. When it digs for the extra land/chrome I need its great, but if it doesn’t I wonder why I didn’t mulligan because I know I’m not drawing anything I need for a couple turns.
Overall the cards I felt were weakest:
Plunge into Darkness
Brainstorm
Cabal Ritual
I can’t offer any replacement cards at the moment (if they exist) but I think it might be a good idea to at least lower the number of plunge/brainstorm because drawing multiples is usually bad. If I am making any play mistakes that you can see please pm me and tell me what I am doing wrong.
High score..what does that mean? Did I break the game?
Since this deck seems to have its hardest time with contol have you tested carpet of flowers as a possible sideboard against blue? It would not really help with the storm count but it would make the deck more stable.
G Enchantment
At the beginning of your precombat main phase, you may add up to X mana of any one color to your mana pool, where X is the number of Islands target opponent controls.
High score..what does that mean? Did I break the game?
I wasnt suggesting it as an replacement for xantid swarm. I was thinking that it could be boarded in for cabal rit as an uncounterable source of accelleration that gets better as the game goes on.
Last edited by No_Life_No_Future; 03-16-2007 at 08:05 PM. Reason: horrible speller
High score..what does that mean? Did I break the game?
I don't think the word "strictly" means what you think it means.except that card is strictly inferior to xantid swarm
When in doubt, mumble.
When in trouble, delegate.
With that hand, you should play:I find myself usually winning through IGG. I have had trouble with hands like:
CoB
Rite of Flame
Burning Wish
LED
LED
Plunge
x
x
...
The problem is that I can’t guarantee a plunge will get me what I need;
City
(1) LED
(2) LED
(3) Rite
(4) Wish and crack the diamonds for RRRBBB, get Ill-Gotten Gains and play:
(5) IGG for RRBB, getting back LED, LED, Plunge,
(6-7) play both LEDs
(8) Plunge and break diamonds for RRRBBB. Get a Wish or Infernal Tutor with the Plunge (paying up to 18 life, high chance you will succeed) and (9) tutor up a (10) Tendrils for 20.
Turn one win.
I just found this and I'm wondering if you have tested it. I know it doesnt add to storm count but it would be very helpful with Lions eye diamond as it can't be Forced (so you could get a copy of warrens/Tendrils with LED). Also its a decent tutor... too bad its got BB in it.
3B (4), Creature - Skeleton 2/3
Fear.
Transmute {1}{B}{B}.
Sacrifice a creature: Regenerate Dimir House Guard.
High score..what does that mean? Did I break the game?
Interesting since it can get Warrens, Tendrils, DReturns, or Iggy, but ultimately it can ONLY get 4cc spells. It's inflexibility will likely prevent its inclusion. Its only bonus may be that it can't be Countered, but is it worth the extra mana? Also, which tutor would it replace? I doubt that I'd prefer this over BWish or Infernal or even Plunge (which is my least fav. tutor in this deck).
/tangent. I just made myself laugh when I imagined this deck with Demonic Consultation.
Umm...I'm pretty sure that you can't transmute Dimir House Guard with LED mana, because you have to discard the House Guard as part of the cost to get the mana. And you can't declare the ability, then crack LED to pay for it because, although it's a mana ability, it says on the card that you can only play the ability any time you could play an instant.
So either you crack LED and don't have the Hosue Guard anymore, or you play the ability, but can't crack LED during the ability and have to pay for it some other way.
Am I missing something? It doesn't work the same way madness does.
edit: And Rotten, I really like Plunge in this deck, because after you Plunge, Burning Wish can nab a lot of the other 15-17 other cards you didn't grab (or most of the cards you removed with DReturns), essentially turning it into a red Demonic Tutor. This is great.
Team Info-Ninjas: Ambition is a poor excuse for not having enough sense to be lazy.
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Originally Posted by Slay
Since transmute is uncounterable, and you have to use LED before passing priority, it means you won't just take mana burn by having your tutor forced. Also, if you fetch a storm card from it, you'll essentially have finished your combo without even giving them a chance to disrupt (barring Stifle).
I guess it's safer against counterspells and the like, especially when Xantid Swarm doesn't hit.
Team Info-Ninjas: Ambition is a poor excuse for not having enough sense to be lazy.
My Videos: Chiron Beta Prime, Flickr, Re: Your Brains
Originally Posted by Slay
I've been fiddling with the deck a bit, and I've been trying something out... My MD is almost the same as the one wastelife used at TMLO, except I kept the 4th Cabal Ritual over the 2nd EtW, and my sideboard is:
1 Tendrils
1 EtW
1 Diminishing Returns
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Cabal Therapy
1 Hull Breach
1 Rough/Tumble
4 Dark Confidant
4 Shattering Spree
The Confidants and Sprees in the board are interchangeable with the Swarms and Cabal Rituals MD, kind of like modules, as some would call it. For example, what I keep from the 4 for game 2 after SB:
Confidant and Swarm = blue-based aggro-control (Thresh, Fish, MeatHooks)
Swarm and Spree = Faerie Stompy
Ritual and Spree = Aggro w/ Chalices
Confidant and Ritual = Aggro w/o Chalices, black-based disruption
Confidant and Spree = Stax prison
It's been working well for me so far, but I'm going to continue to try this out and see if it's better than the current strategies.
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I am not sure if we have gone over this:
Which is better? (Rolling) Earthquake/ Rough & Tumble/ Pyroclasm.
My impression that normal Earthquake is better since it can double as a kill condiction.
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