Can you do a report and/or give the deck list you used?Originally Posted by jegger
Today at Mestre (Italy) I'm arrived second at a 34 (or 38? I don't remember) players tournament.
Thanks to wastedlife
And sorry for my english.
I've run into these. G2/G3 Do not hesitate to drop 0 drops as soon as possible. Also, remember their threat density is incredibly low, so you can wait to go off until the time looks right.
Team Multi-Grain - We're wholesome.
Unless Counterbalance has a 2cc card on top of its deck, the best answer is to just Burning Wish or Infernal Tutor for Empty the Warrens and try and race them before they can start manipulating their top deck.
1.) Why change the deck for a match-up you more than likely won’t face. Xantid still drags the card you’re complaining about our of their hand. I don’t see the issue.
2.) They’re going to Chant you in response, yet creating a Timewalk either way.
3.) I can cast Xantid before returns, making sure it resolves AND protects the spells after returns; giving it a better effect than “Discard a card.” Xantid Swarm is in the deck for the deck’s worst match-ups control. Xantid Swarm does a better job against control than Duress does. If Xantid resolves first turn it shuts down all the counterspells/stifles in their hands where Duress leaves them still being able to be cast. Xantid Swarm wins the Threshold match-up on its own when it hits the board. Duress does
4.) Different playstyles for different people.
5.) How long a card stays in your hand doesn’t matter. You actually want to cast Xantid Swarm as fast as possible why would you hold it in your hand? Infernal Tutor doesn’t gain more targets you’re swapping 4 for 4.
6.) It’s four mana not three. RR – R + RRR= RRRR. Either way 4 or 3 still beats 2 mana. Which makes it better.
7.) I’m not going to waste a valuable accelerant on a Confidant anyways. Rite of Flame = 1 Damage, SSG = 3 damage. 1 Damage wins.
8.) I disagree. That’s a horrible argument. If it’s got a 1/6th’s chance of being removed should we just cut LED too?
Also, congrats Jegger. If you do a nice job on the report I'll add it to the opening post with the other ones.
So the 2 main points here are Rite of Flame vs Simian Spirit Guide, and Xantid vs Duress.
On the 1st one: This is a storm based combo deck, being able to increase your storm count is the primary focus of any card. In terms of mana growth they are even on the first one:
1 Simian - R
1 Rite - R
But when you add another
2 Simian - RR
2 Rite - RRR (Gross 5 - 2 to cast them)
However, the killers is
2 Simian - Storm 0, 9 spells to lethal Tendrils
2 Rite - Storm 2, 7 spells to lethal Tendrils
Yes, they could technically counter the Rites, but not the Simians, but if your biggest fear is counterspells, Combo is not for you.
To Sum:
Simian: Uncounterable Mana
Rite: Better in Multiples
Adds to Storm
You could argue that you can hardcast Simian as a body, but if you are doing that odds are your done.
Xantid vs Duress
Duress is more proactive. It can not only take out counters, but other combo pieces if your enemies are playing combo, various bits of hate, and so on. The downside is, if your enemies have multiples of the problem card, they just laugh at you anyway.
Xantid is narrower: it does not affect Chant, it does not affect most hate, but it does stop counterspells far better than Duress. Honestly I fear Counterspells more, because Xantid is the ONLY answer TES has to it, so I would keep TES MD. (Not to mention it improves your pre-board Thresh much more than Duress will)
Team Multi-Grain - We're wholesome.
1) Because I'm not changing a card for a match up I wont face, I'm changing a card because I believe it's better against match ups I will face.
2) Against Xantid Swarm, Orim's Chant is a Time Walk, against Duress Orim's Chant is a Time Walk, but in case B, the opponent has to discard his tutor or accelerant.
3) A Xantid Swarm that resolves against Threshold, doesn't get RFGed via Swords to Plowshares and attacks on the following turn to stop the opponent from countering cards after a Diminishing Returns is the definition of win more; the deck should be comboing with Ill Gotten Gains in that situation in the first place.
4) Fair enough
5) Re-read the paragraph, Duress can remain in hand longer than Xantid Swarm, because Duress does not have summoning sickness, the longer a card can remain in hand, with out causing it to become sub-optimal when cast, gives the deck more targets for Infernal Tutor.
6) It's three mana, not four. RR - R + RRR - R = RRR. Yes, 3 > 2, but that's under the condition there are 2 Right of Flame in hand, the second Right of Flame isn't countered and the deck has an R source.
You can't use a direct comparison in order to calculate Right of Flame vs Simian Spirit Guide, because Right of Flame's strengths are calcuable out of the game while Simian Spirit Guide's strengths are calcuable in the game. 0 for R, uncounterable and "counter target Daze" are all important considerations.
7) 3 damage vs 1 damage is such a weak argument, it's if and only if you are in games 2/3 and if and only if you SBed Dark Confidant. Regardless of what the card is, Simian Spirit Guide creates more turn one plays than Right of Flame, and Simian Spirit Guide increases the gold fish.
8) It's Right of Flame vs Simian Spirit Guide, not Simian Spirit Guide vs all other accelerants in the deck, stop side tracking the argument with false analogies.
The point is, it's 5/6 of a Right of Flame vs 0/6 of a Simian Spirit Guide, where the one mana source difference for red is a small statistical argument in favor of Right of Flame that could be countered with "if R isn't floating then the net value of Right of Flame is 0/6 for all remaining copies of the card."
@ Cait Sith
Xantid Swarm does nothing against multiple counter spells, one counter will counter the Xantid Swarm and the other counter will be left in hand, at least with Duress one counter will be discarded and you will know your opponent has another counter in hand. I could care less if the opponent has 2xStifle, you are going to take any other card and Diminishing Returns those Stifles out of his hand.
If the opponent has multiples of a hate card, then at least one of them was discarded, so Burning Wish can either tutor for Cabal Therapy or removal for the other.
If they would counter the Xantid then they would counter the Duress. Saying "They counter it" would make the entire argument invalid, since the spell never resolved. I find it annoying you are comparing a COUNTERED Swarm to a RESOLVED Duress. If I compared a RESOLVED Xantid Swarm to a COUNTERED Duress then the argument becomes lopsided.
Also, some math: Duress = 1 Mana. Burning Wish = 2 Mana. Cabal Therapy = 1 Mana. So you expect your opponent to sit patiently and do nothing on their turn? Yes, you can fetch some sort of hate, but that means time spent not going off. In an aggressive format time spent not comboing or assembling the combo ready hand is typically bad time.
Also: I forgot to mention this but you brought it up: Diminishing Returns and Igg can give them back their pieces of hate. You just mentioned that Diminish Returns would get rid of their 2nd Stifle, but it could easily give them 1-2 back while taking away your Duresses. If even you get a Duress to inspect their hand again (which you would really need to do if you just put all sorts of nasty stuff in their hand) that means that you have less mana to work with and may be put into an unwinnable situation anyway. With Xantid you know your entire going off is protected (under normal circumstances)
Team Multi-Grain - We're wholesome.
I think that the correct answer might be to combo off into a small ETW, very early in the game.
And try not let them to have a Active Top and Counterbalance at the same time.
The argument is valid, if the opponent counters a Xantid Swarm, it's because not countering the Xantid Swarm would result in a dead card(s). If the opponent counters the Duress, it's because not countering the Duress would allow another card to be discarded, otherwise there is no reason to Force of Will (-1 card advantage) or Daze (-1 Land Drop) the Duress if the card that was going to be discarded was the counter.
It's not a question of unresolved Xantid Swarm vs resolved Duress, it's a question of Threshold having Force of Will and TES having Xantid Swarm or Duress, where countering the Xantid Swarm is optimal (barring Swords to Plowshares) and allowing the Duress to resolve is optimal (barring Null Rod).
Comparing a resolved Xantid Swarm to a countered Duress is nonsensical, if the Xantid Swarm resolved, it's because it's going to be Swords to Plowshared. If Xantid Swarm and Duress resolved, then the opponent has no defense against the Ill Gotten Gains chain, and the Duress gets to discard a cantrip or draw spell.
Duress + Burning Wish + Cabal Therapy and Duress + Infernal Tutor are just two more outs that Duress has over Xantid Swarm. I could argue that the time invested in the Duress + Burning Wish + Cabal Therapy chain is less than the Xantid Swarm gets double Stifled play. Besides, it's not just Duress + Burning Wish + Cabal Therapy, it's Duress + Burning Wish + Hull Breach, where Duress can discard one Solitary Confinement, Pyrostatic Pillar, Null Rod, Trinisphere or Chalice of the Void etc. and the Burning Wish can put the deck back into the game (and you are forced into this line of play, so assembling the combo hand is absolutely irrelevant).
Edit: In the double Stifle scenario, the deck can Burning Wish for Diminishing Returns.
If I Duress, discard a Force of Will and see a Stifle, I can use that information to Diminishing Returns and shuffle the Stifle back into the deck; if I Xantid Swarm, the opponent counters Xantid Swarm and I don't see Stifle, so I could potentially play into the Stifle and lose.
If I Duress and see 2 Stifle, I can discard one Stifle and use that information to Diminishing Returns and shuffle the second Stifle back into the deck; if I Xantid Swarm, the opponent can Stifle Xantid Swarm for two turns in a row while he searches for an answer to Xantid Swarm.
In all scenarios, shuffling the Stifle back into the deck and forcing them to draw it again is better than allowing the Stifle to remain in hand, even if the opponent does draw another Force of Will or Stifle, and you don't draw Duress, you aren't in a necessarily losing position.
Edit: You also get to shuffle Meddling Mage or Null Rod back into the deck to.
A resolved Xantid Swarm protecting a Diminishing Returns is win more, for what possible reason should the deck be using a Diminishing Returns instead of an Ill Gotten Gains in this position, when the first is random and the second is guaranteed?
And on a last note, the number of times where a Xantid Swarm manages to draw out multiple Orim's Chant or Stifle, where Duress would draw out one Orim's Chant (discarding another card) or discard one Stifle, and the opponent can't use the 2 Time Walks to deal with the Xantid Swarm vs you not being able to deal with the second Orim's Chant or Stifle (knowing the second Orim's Chant and Stifle are in hand) are a lot less than the opponent just Swords to Plowsharing the Xantid Swarm (2/3 games vs 1/2 games, assuming the opponent has Stifle in his SB to begin with).
The argument isn't valid. Why? Simply put, your entire reasoning is based solely on the fact your opponent WILL counter Xantid Swarm is they can, but will NOT counter Duress for fear of card/tempo disadvantage. There is a massive reason to counter Duress you are ignoring: Bluffing. Now you are in a situation where your opponent apparently does not want you to see whatever is in their hands and you don't know why. They come out ahead of the encounter since they know what is going of better than you do.
Double Stifle on Swarm means they are hurting their tempo and backing themselves into a corner through their card disadvantage. Also, you can still Brainstorm and Plunge at their EOT, so if you don't feel safe going off it isn't a total loss.
Those are all well and good, but they all mean that Duress is situationally good. Xantid Swarm is superior to Duress if you cast Igg or Diminishing Returns. Xantid's ability keeps you safe when casting either one while Duress does virtually nothing. You can claim it is win more with Returns, but your opponent can grab and Stifles and Forces you Duressed away and essentially lock you out.
We are not casting IGG with a Leyline of the Void play. The cards you Duressed away ad the cards in their hand are shuffled back into their library and they get a chance to redraw them. You even said that Returns is random, so why rely on it to get rid of your opponents hate cards?
How is it a "win more?" In WHAT position? This is a randomly floating statement without context. IGG means you need certain spells in your graveyard and certain mana floating Post-IGG. It is more specific than Diminishing Returns in when you should use it and even then because it only gets you 3 cards.
Team Multi-Grain - We're wholesome.
1) Countering the Duress is the same thing as countering the Xantid Swarm, except it gives TES information, either the opponent is protecting Null Rod, which is going to be cast on the next turn, or Engineered Explosives, which is going to be cast after an Empty the Warrens, or Stifle, which is going to be cast in response to Tendrils of Agony or Empty the Warrens. So, assuming the opponent is Force of Willing the Duress in order to bluff an answer to Empty the Warrens, relevant games 2 and 3, and you fall for it, the worst that happens is that you Diminishing Returns instead of Empty the Warrens. So, either my opponent is going to turn my Duress into a Xantid Swarm, -1 card advantage, or he is going to give me an opportunity to call his bluff, Duress is just as good, if not better, than Xantid Swarm in either case.
2) Fine
3) That's assuming the Duress didn't discard the Stifle and assuming the deck can't just Empty the Warrens or Diminishing Returns, you're only locked out of the game if you rely on IGG (and the Stifle got to Time Walk the Xantid Swarm).
4) What? In the case of Force of Will, Xantid Swarm is discarded and the Stifle remains in hand (unknown) while Duress discards Force of Will and Stifle remains in hand (known) if the deck goes for Empty the Warrens in the first case, it loses, if the deck goes for Diminishing Returns in the second case, it doesn't lose. The first case gives the deck a chance to lose, while the second case gives the deck a chance to win, regardless of whatever the opponent draws in his Returns hand.
Edit: Ok, you meant a single Stifle, where discarding the Stifle still keeps you off of Ill Gotten Gains, and if you Diminishing Returns, you are risking the opponent will draw another Stifle and/or Force of Will. Yes, in this case, Xantid Swarm gives the deck the option of Ill Gotten Gains, 2 turns later. I'd rather just take the information I gained from discarding a single Stifle and go for Empty the Warrens. You could argue that Xantid Swarm is better than Duress against Stifle as long as you are willing to wait, and that's fine, I'd argue that Duress is better against non-Instant based hate, Null Rod, Chalice of the Void, Pyrostatic Pillar, discard etc.
Even if I conceded that Xantid Swarm vs 2 Stifle > Duress vs 2 Stifle (where Duress could play around the 2 Stifle with Diminishing Returns as opposed to waiting 3 turns to win {summoning sickness}) you still have to deal with Swords to Plowshares, a guaranteed 4x in the opponent's deck for a 1-3/3 games (You want to talk about bluffing, what about the opponent Swords to Plowsharing a resolved Xantid Swarm with out a counter in hand?).
5) Win more in the sense that if the opponent didn't Force of Will the Xantid Swarm, didn't Swords to Plowshare the Xantid Swarm, didn't Stifle the Xantid Swarm that the chances are the deck should assemble the Ill Gotten Gains chain and get a guaranteed win instead of casting Diminishing Returns, risking not winning and drawing the opponent into all of his outs.
1.) Countering or killing Xantid Swarm gives TES just as much information as countering a Duress. It lets the TES player know they are playing instants that effect you, Chant, countermagic, or stifle and if you're horrible extripate.
2.) There's times when TES can't win with ETW or Diminishing Returns, such as the opponent playing mass removal, or not being able to acquire UU. I don't feel extremely confortable going balls deep and going for Warrens past turn one possibly two. The deck uses Ill-Gotten Gains more than ETW and Returns, by far.
3.) Your example is assuming way too many things. You says you weren't on the play and they didn't draw Force of Will? Also if I can hide a stifle vs. TES the Duress won't resolve esp. with a Duress on the stack that can target Stifle. A smart TES player would take stifle not Force of Will.
4.) Xantid Swarm is a creature, we all knew that. Thank you. Being a creature, it's assumed that there will be side effects such as removal that come with it.
5.) Xantid Swarm stays on the table alot more than people often think it would. Also, alot of your examples your opponents opening hand must look like Force, Stifle, Daze, Fetch. EE., Nullrod, and Brainstorm. The average player does not draw the nuts game after game.
1) Countering a Duress states "I have something more important in hand" while countering Xantid Swarm state "If I didn't counter Xantid Swarm then the counter would have been dead after it resolved." Duress gives more information than Xantid Swarm whether it's countered or it resolves.
2) I win with ETW, Returns or double Tendrils more than I win with IGG against blue, I imagine that's because Duress facilitates ETW and Returns more than it facilitates IGG, discarding mass removal or disrupting the opponent after the Returns.
3) What?
4) So in other words, it's ok for Xantid Swarm to have a weakness against MD removal, but it's not ok for Duress to have a weakness against multiple SB Stifle that can be circumvented? If Xantid Swarm and Duress have the same function, and Duress has some weaknesses and some strengths that Xantid Swarm doesn't, but it avoids removal altogether, then that's an irrelevant point?
5) All of the examples are either Force of Will + Stifle, Stifle + Stifle, Force of Will + Null Rod, Force of Will + Engineered Explosives or Force of Will + Swords to Plowshares, don't take the examples out of context.
1.) No it doesn't. They give an equal amout of information.
2.) Duress doesn't help Returns more than it does Xantid. If you swing with Xantid Swarm and play Diminishing Returns protection is no longer needed. If you Duress and play returns you'll need to draw your protection and cast it, wasting mana.
3.) If TES is casting Duress and your hand consists of Force, Blue card, and stifle you won't let Duress resolve. Due to the fact the good TES player will choose Stifle not Force of Will. Changing the scenario of your example. Also, you opponents do draw cards. Xantid Swarm is better vs. drawn counterspells than Duress is, which I said. Locking those counterspells out of the game.
4.) Removal against TES is a pretty much wasted slot in most examples. Unless you don't have better SB options. Also Stifle is alot more prevelent against TES than swords to plowshares. A swords to plowshares will not end a game, however, a stifle will.
5.) Not really, it's not uncommon for an opponent to have stifle and force in thier opening hand. However, look back at your examples. Your examples include alot more cards than those two.
EDIT: I've also noticed you've refused to notice Duress's weakest point. That it's horrible with Ill-Gotten Gains, all we've gotten out of you is "Don't use it." Why not use the decks strongest and most used storm generator?
It's the same amount of information. It's just that if Swarm resolves, it screams "I WIN!" If it's answered, it's x amount of cards left to figure out.
Xantid Swarm helps you win against Blue.2) I win with ETW, Returns or double Tendrils more than I win with IGG against blue, I imagine that's because Duress facilitates ETW and Returns more than it facilitates IGG, discarding mass removal or disrupting the opponent after the Returns.
There comes a time where you want them to throw counters to make attempts to fizzle you just to add Storm. Stifle just takes it out, but luckily, Swarm makes sure none of this ever happens. If you want to run something else instead of Swarm, run Confidant and stick to the smallball theory, and even that wont make the deck was strong as it should be. Swarm is the best you've got...3) What?
Well let's see. In all my days of playing Gro, heres what I had to do with all my cantrips just to answer a fucking Xantid Swarm. Heres what all my cantrips consisted of, and here's what I had to give up just to find a Swords...4) So in other words, it's ok for Xantid Swarm to have a weakness against MD removal, but it's not ok for Duress to have a weakness against multiple SB Stifle that can be circumvented? If Xantid Swarm and Duress have the same function, and Duress has some weaknesses and some strengths that Xantid Swarm doesn't, but it avoids removal altogether, then that's an irrelevant point?
Portent:
FoW, C-Spell, Serum Visions *Shuffles, sees Land on upkeep, BS on Nimble Mongoose on draw steap.
Serum Visions:
Draws Daze, sees Serum Visions and C-Spell. Sends C-Spell to bottom. Draws SV, and plays it. Draws Werebear. See's Portent and Predict.
Look at how many turns I had to sacrifice just to answer Swarm. Landstill takes it the hardest; it plays a Wrath of God just to answer the damn bug.
Which everyone plays now because of TES. I'm not suprised if Goblins splashes Blue just for Trickbinds to play alongside with their Chalices of the Voids...5) All of the examples are either Force of Will + Stifle, Stifle + Stifle, Force of Will + Null Rod, Force of Will + Engineered Explosives or Force of Will + Swords to Plowshares, don't take the examples out of context.
ICBE - We're totally the coolest Anti-Thesis ever.
"The Citrus-God just had a Citrus-Supernova... in your mouth."
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