There is one Grapeshot and One Tendrils. I would absolutely name Burning Wish against a red storm combo deck. If you've been playing them at all you should realize that. Burning Wish is the MvP. If you shut it down all you need to do is aim Force of Will in the right direction. I suppose the deck could combo a chain into its single Tendrils or Grapeshot but to do so is walking on eggshells. Relying like I said way too heavily for hellbent or a tutor that doesnt get countered.
The senario you discribe with Burning Wish involves 12 mana invested before your fourth Burning Wish resolves. LOL. The deck has some free mana but lets get realistic. How many turns do you plan to do that in? Thats some Werebear mauling ftw right there.
This deck might just need Meditates. I find them very very important to most legacy combo.
Now playing real formats.
Even the creator of the deck says that Nausea relies on Helm of Awakening.
Now with Wipe away you didn't really make an argument for the card. You started to, forgot that you need to actually make a coherant statement, and insulted someone you don't know.
As said above, their are answers MD to MM.
Mystical Tutor sure is tech against discard.
Good suggestion on Repeal. I like it.
Nice deck there WastedLife. Very impressive.
I got a few comments about it.
1) Maybe im just stupid/blind or maybe i havent read it carefully enough, but what are it we are discussing about the deck right now? Fabricate vs. Trinket Mage?
2) Have you given any notice to other 5 color lands than Forbidden Orchard? I mean Forsaken City, Undiscovered Paradise and maybe even Tarnished Citadel seems like some good choises. Perhaps the new one Gemstone Caverns.
3) I dont know, but IMO you relies to much on tutor power to get your win condition. Yeah, you play Burning Wish and Infernal, but Infernal requires hellbent. So you got 6 reliable win conditions. Wish + Tendrils is 6 mana. I may be totally wrong on this, but this seems like an issue to me.
Anyways, it could be nice if you would make a list of current issues that needs a fix. Else, this thread may like a lot others, turn into pointless talking about pointless things.
Im gonna pick this deck up and play. I look forward to any progress!
- Mordenkain, Upcoming player of TES
There, Im quoting myself for you.
Nausea does not RELY on Helm, where is Roopey? Does he know your saying that? I wasnt trying to make an arguement for Wipe Away. I was mentioning that thats what Iggy has going for it against Threshold as opposed to TES not. It is a powerfull card and Im sure Iggy and Solidarity will prove it to you in upcoming tournaments. The deck could certainly support the card, especially since it plays IT, if it werent for the focus on playing all five colors. And I did not insult wastedlife by calling him wastedlife. Is that coherant enough for you?
EDIT
I forgot he mentioned the addition of maindeck Empty the Warrens, I'll have to give that some more consideration. I suppose the right call w/ Meddling would definitly be Burning Wish if the decks win conditions are too diverse. Just like I said you should name.
Now playing real formats.
ICBE - We're totally the coolest Anti-Thesis ever.
"The Citrus-God just had a Citrus-Supernova... in your mouth."
Yes, the deck can win without them but how often are you more likely going to lose because you don't have them.
Ok, let's me mature about this there's no need to act like a 5 year old. Please give reasons to why you think the card is "Fucking amazing". I can support 1UU after all my lands tap for any color, but why would I want to play it? It's no better than Chain of Vapor and cost 2 more. Not to mention Burning Wish is simply a better card. The EPIC Storm playing all 5 colors has nothing to do with not playing a card that costs 1UU after all I play Diminishing Returns. Wow that was terribly clever, really. Who would've ever thought to call me a wasted life?
So, we agree that Burning Wish is better than Wipe Away? I'm in no way "Shit up the creek" when a Meddling Mage names Burning Wish. Between Empty the Warrens, Tendrils of Agongy, Grapeshot, 2x Cabal Pit and other tutor effects (Infernal Tutor and Plunge into Darkness) I'm fairly sure I can play around a Meddling Mage.
You said you've played combo right? By no means am I out of the game when an Ill-Gotten Gains get's countered. I do have Burning Wish, Diminishing Returns, Empty the Warrens and well just comboing out without the card. I have a bad game against discard I'll admit it but so doesn't every other Storm based deck. I don't see Solidarity's players going towards Mystical Tutor just because people play Hymn to Tourach. I do not "Scoop" to discard decks, I too play an Ill-Gotten Gains with more ways to find it than Iggy Pop and Nausea. I also play Diminishing Returns to refuel my hand.
I have it's too mana intensive and unneeded. If I was to play a bounce spell it'd be Chain of Vapor. Don't knock Trinket Mage until you've tested the deck. You'll grow to like it if you actually test the deck.
Meditate is random which is why we don't play draw 4's. If we were to play a draw 4 it'd be Cruel Bargain due to the casting cost. Drawing random cards in deck that needs specific things to win just won't work.Originally Posted by Bane of the Living
1.) We were discussing Mage V.S Fabricate, but Trinket Mage is simply better and more of a threat.Nice deck there WastedLife. Very impressive.
I got a few comments about it.
1) Maybe im just stupid/blind or maybe i havent read it carefully enough, but what are it we are discussing about the deck right now? Fabricate vs. Trinket Mage?
2) Have you given any notice to other 5 color lands than Forbidden Orchard? I mean Forsaken City, Undiscovered Paradise and maybe even Tarnished Citadel seems like some good choises. Perhaps the new one Gemstone Caverns.
3) I dont know, but IMO you relies to much on tutor power to get your win condition. Yeah, you play Burning Wish and Infernal, but Infernal requires hellbent. So you got 6 reliable win conditions. Wish + Tendrils is 6 mana. I may be totally wrong on this, but this seems like an issue to me.
Anyways, it could be nice if you would make a list of current issues that needs a fix. Else, this thread may like a lot others, turn into pointless talking about pointless things.
Im gonna pick this deck up and play. I look forward to any progress!
- Mordenkain, Upcoming player of TES
2.) I have considered other lands than Forbidden Orchard. I took the manabase from Grim Long in Vintage and worked it from there, I just grew to like Forbidden Orchard. Forsaken City makes you pitvh a card to untap, card disadvatnge = bad. Tarnished Citadel deals you 3, a token should never deal you 3 if it does you were probably losing anyways. Undiscovered Paradice I just dislike the fact it returns, which may screw with Hellbent and land drops.
3.) The deck is Tutor based so yes it relies on tutors. Becoming Hellbent isn't as hard as people say. I'm sorry but between LED and correctly playing your spells it shouldn't be a problem. The deck has argueably 17 win conditions, 10 Tutors, Tendrils of Agony, Grapeshot, Empty the Warrens and Trinket mage.
Wipeaway is something that Iggy has over TES? Please, you don't need horrible cards clogging up your deck. I wish you'd understand this, TES DOESN'T NEED BOUNCE! It has ways around Meddling Mage, those being other win conditions. What doesn't Iggy Pop have? Other win conditions therefor it is FORCED to play bad cards like wipeaway. How is the focus playing all 5 colors? I would not make poor card choices just so my deck is 5 color, in deck layout it is actually B/r/u. Xantid Swarm is a black card, accept it. Wow, you ment "Wastedlife" in a demeaning way I could care less just drop the dumb topic. Meddling Mage naming Tendrils of Agony is always the correct first chant.
Last edited by Bryant Cook; 11-18-2006 at 10:24 PM.
Speaking of GrimLong, would Grim Tutor add any consistancy to the deck?
info.ninja
Actually as of late, any deck I've seen that's been running Meddling Mage has been also having 4x Stifle between maindeck and SB. So I would personally say that a first call from Meddling Mage should always be Burning Wish.
Keep in mind, the only three decks in the format I bother playing right now are Deadguy (I still love the deck, even though it's not putting up numbers), Solidarity, and IGGy. So in all seriousness, I can fully admit about 3/4 of the blue decks I see (Solidarity, U/G/w Thresh, or Meat Hooks) have Stifle when need be. Burning Wish is indeed the real threat here.
EDIT: Also, how are your Trinket Mages actually getting real damage through with this deck vs Thresh?(I'm actually very curious, not undermining you) Nearly every game I play against Thresh, I either have to deal with Mongoose or Werebear getting thresh'd as fast as turn 3, plus their rediculous amount of control. What's your deterrent to keep that from happening on a regular basis? The build my buddy playtests against me with runs 11 Thresh creatures (4 Bear, 4 Mongoose, 3 Enforcer) and 4 Mage. I'd hardly consider it real damage in that case.
Decks playing 4x Meddling Mage and 4x Stifle are not extremely common. Yes, Threshold can run Mage and Stifle but not all thresh lists run them. Some don't run mage, some don't run stifle and some lists don't run both. My point being that you can't say that Threshold plays those because not all lists do which may cause a variation in testing results. The three decks you posted are horrible examples, Solidarity most lists don't even run Stifle was a wish target, Threshold some do some don't, and Counterslivers are not a metagame concern in my opinion. Not to sound arrogant nor cocky but its numbers aren’t great enough to consider it in a gauntlet yet alone results for a deck.
Against Threshold in the first few opening turns they should be cantripping and/or dropping Meddling Mage if they play it. While they are cantripping or before they start attempt to go off, if they are playing Nimble Mongoose and Werebears with Threshold on turn 3. They are more than likely not very well protected and you should be able to combo off and have to worry about Trinket Mage. While Threshold is cantripping Trinket Mage should be attacking if you played it, because it is a Tendrils of Agony in every swing. It also keeps Meddling Mage just chanting not swinging. If it comes down to Mage on Mage action your Mage is worthless compared to theirs swing. Trinket Mage often lowers your opponent's life total enough for a smaller lethal Tendrils of Agony. This is also assuming you have not drawn Xantid Swarm or Cabal Therapy.
I tested 6 games against Wastedlife.
Round 1- Me 2-1
Round 2- Him 2-1
The matchup is about 50/50. Its possible to run the Thresh player out of Counters/Blue spells for FOW. You do this by baiting with your Tutors and Therapys, then either going for broke with Tendrils or resolving Wish-> Warrnens.
Empty the Warrens is a beating against Threshold because its an (almost) uncounterable source of recurring damage.
I'm starting to think that Stifle is better against Storm Combo than Mage is...
I'd totally agree with that, save solidarity. Stifle is a mini speedbump for solidarity, whereas mage can be a game breaker.I'm starting to think that Stifle is better against Storm Combo than Mage is...
What version did you play? I'd think the numbers would be different for UGr and UGw.
I'm here to kick ass and play card games.
BZK
UGW, 4 maindeck Mage, 16 cantrip with Predicts. All games were preboard.
UGW vs UGR isn't actually that different. You either have the Counterspells or you don't, although the 16 cantrips make life a little easier.
Stifling fetchlands wins games against Solidarity, btw.
I agree COMPLETELY with the Stifle vs Fetchlands. I played a preboard matchup vs Volt using Meat Hooks with Solidarity, and I got raped 2-8 preboard, and 0-8 after SB. Given, 3 games we played I could have actually gone off without being hindered, but I fizzled after he hit a few crucial spells and I drew into utter garbage (lands, or counterspells) but most of the time, it was turn 1-2 Stifle vs my Fetch's and I just couldn't match him in land count. Mage on the other hand typically just needs you to waste a Cunning Wish on a bounce spell. Either are a hinderance, but Stifle is definitely more of an MVP vs Storm.
I would have to say at this point, anything running Mage + Stifle is typically an autoloss to any Storm based deck, but like Wastedlife says, it's usually uncommon outside of specific metagames. When this deck, Nausea, Solidarity, or IGGy start showing up more often, we'll see the shift in decks like Thresh and some of the other aggro control to accommodate playing those 8 cards between MD and SB. Most can already do it, but don't have the need.
I agree with that Stifle is incredibly good against TES, much better than Meddling Mage. But is there a real way to improve on this? I mean we run 3x Xantid Swarm and 2x Cabal Therapy MD with 2x Defense Grid sideboard. Do we want to dilute our deck with more protection? It's a question I've been asking myself. It would make the Threshold/Solidarity match-up better but would make other match-ups worse and it would take away consistency. So… more protection or more consistency? Also is it too early? Since MD stifle isn't that huge. It's only seen in a few decks such as Hanni Fish and Meat hooks, which aren't extremely popular.
My buddy Eric runs 4 MD'ed Stifles in his UW Angel Stompy Puritans deck and he has been putting up strong numbers with it. It's unfair to say that Hanni Fish and Meathooks are the only decks that run Stifle.Originally Posted by wastedlife
Tivadar's version of Angel Stompy fits the suit, but my point wasn't to prove that those were the only two decks that play 4x Stifle between the MD and SB. There's probably a thousand different decks out there that play stifle that we don't know of but does that change the fact they're not a metagame concern? No, my point was to give a few quick examples and explain my point. I'm sorry if I left decks out.
Not that likely if you know what you are doing.Yes, the deck can win without them [helm] but how often are you more likely going to lose because you don't have them.
Trinket Mage is really, really bad. If you think that free spells are warranted in fine-tuned storm decks, you really need to just stop doing whatever it is you are doing. There is a reason why you dont just play Ornithopter isn't there? It chumps! YAY!
I don't know why you spend all this time working on another deck rather than just learn how to play Nausea correctly.
You guys think of Helm in the completely wrong light. Helm is like a Ritual, except its a lot better. Generally, Helm "produces" 5-6 mana for the small investment of 2 mana. You were willing to produce 0 mana with the investment of 3 mana. Helm seems better.
1 of Meditate is a lot better than 1 of Diminishing Returns. Meditate is 10x more flexible.
I really like the idea of Repeal. That should be incorporated somehow.
You are running to many rituals and not enough draw. Sure you have 8 tutor effects, but that is still not enough when you want to win by turn 3.
All in all, the deck wasn't very well thought out or put together.
BTW, Bigger and Badder is bad grammar, it should be Bigger and Worse.
I don't think your flames combined with a lack of support from statistical numbers is appreciated in this thread. We understand your affinity for your own pet deck, but you must also realize, that there may be better tendril's based combo decks available.
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