[Deck] TES (The EPIC Storm)

[xsockmonkeyx]

Well, if artifacts are more prevalent then shouldnt you have a tutorable answer for game 1? A 3cc sorcery that kills multiple artifacts would be nice to have for an option. What about Seeds of Innocence? Is the GG in the casting cost + life gain too prohibitive?

[Citrus-God]

If we want Artifact kill from the SB, it would have to be Shattering Spree. It does such a better job at killing Chalice ands Trinispheres.

[xsockmonkeyx]

What about Chalice at x=1?

[Kronicler]

replicate > chalice. The original copy is countered but the replicated copies are never played and therefore aren't countered. So RR kills a chalice at 1.

[Kronicler]

What's up everyone. I've been doing a lot of testing with this deck lately and I've really come to love it. I'll probably be taking it to a local tourney a week from this sunday and it will be interesting to see how I do. But onto the results of the tests

I tested against Solidarity, Gobos (with white splash and without), Thresh, and Faerie Stompy. My conclusions were:

1) Drawing the 1 ofs when you want to get hellbent is VERY agrivating, as not only are they almost completely useless but they actually can prevent you from comboing sometimes.

2) Getting threshold for cabal ritual is challenging considering I was going off mostly on turn 2, and without threshold cabal ritual is very weak.

3) Chrome mox is slightly awkward as you rarely want to imprint a piece of accel on it (unless you are short on mana sources... rare but possible). I found my self playing it without imprinting anything on it just to increase the storm count.

4) Xantid Swarms are f*cking amazing.

5) A cheep piece of draw would really be useful.

6) Having Cabal Pit as your only land can be problematic.

In an effort to compensate for some of my problems with the deck I decided to test out careful study instead of trinket mage as well as remove a few maindeck 1 ofs which I rarely used and change 1 cabal pit to a gemstone mine. Careful Study serves many purposes, allowing you to get threshold faster, get rid of cards preventing you from becoming hellbent, and dig for a missing combo piece (tutors, accel, etc.). After some tinkering I came up with this list:

Creatures
4 Xantid Swarm

Spells
4 Burning Wish
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Careful Study
4 Dark Ritual
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Plunge into Darkness
4 Rite of Flame
3 Seething Song
1 Tendrils of Agony

Artifacts
4 Chrome Mox
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal

Lands
1 Cabal Pit
4 City of Brass
1 Forbidden Orchard
4 Gemstone Mine

Sideboard (15 cards)
1 Cabal Therapy
1 Cave-In
1 Cleanfall
1 Diminishing Returns
2 Empty the Warrens
1 Grapeshot
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
2 Rebuild
1 Recoup
1 Shattering Spree
1 Tendrils of Agony
2 Defense Grid

A couple of cuts are debatable, such as maindeck grapeshot vs the 3rd seething song, but overall I found the changes positive. After testing with the new list against the above mensioned decks I found the deck to not only be more consistent at getting threshold and sculpting your hand but at achieving a high enough storm count to tendrils FTW rather than having to Empty the Warrens. Frankly, I don't think this deck needs cabal pit as 1 MM doesn't really matter (naming tendrils? ETW. Naming something else? Tendrils.) and you should combo before 2 are on the board. Also because (excluding a 1st turn combo) the 8 1st turn plays in the deck do not cost black mana, having an opening hand with only cabal pit can be so frustrating.

So.... yeah.

Kronicler

[Bryant Cook]

Looks solid. Careful Study vs Trinketmage is debatable, the main thing I have against careful study it is always card disadvantage where Mage is always card advantage. Have you tired using Plunge as set-up card it really makes it so you don't need draw. I agree on pit but I'm afraid to cut one because it is amazing against aggro as well as Mages. Threshold on Cabal Ritual really doesn't matter in my opinion because there are 10 other rituals, yes it is better with Threshold but I wouldn't be overly concerned with it. All in all list looks alright.

[Kronicler]

You know what, I'm going to disprove Trinket Mage once and for all.

1) It does NOT provide card advantage because in order to cast it before turn three (in all likelihood setting up for a turn 4 win, monumentally slow for TES) you need to burn a piece of acceleration. This means you are using 2 cards and an entire turn to get a single card not much better than the piece of accel you burnt, and certainly worse than the card that trinket mage COULD have been plus the piece of accel.

2) Because this deck almost always requires both red and black mana to combo off, and because we combo so quickly (most of the time with 1 or 2 lands on the field), blue mana is seldom available mid combo meaning trinket mage can become a dead card and sometimes an actual problem if you need to become hellbent.

3) Once on the board, trinket mage does little to no damage. The only time he will even touch an opponent is if not only are you still unable to combo even after he got you an LED (a rare occurrence since we are on turn 3 or 4 by now) but also that your opponent has no blockers. In a format defined by agro the latter situation is rare, but possibly occurring against decks such as burn and solidarity (off the top of my head). In both matches if you haven't gone off by this time you are most likely dead.

Stop being so stubborn and test the deck without trinket mage. Not exploring his slot prevents the deck from evolving, and at this point there is more than enough evidence showing he doesn't deserve his spot. Careful Study is only ONE solution (which does solve a lot of problems), but a different card might be even better in the deck. Look around and test stuff out, and before you know it TES might be in the open forums!

Kronicler

[BiscuitVader]

I'm going to have to agree with Kronicler about cutting Trinket Mage.
He can randomly help, but most of the time I end up putting him on Chrome Mox, or just discarding him to a LED I drew.

If you go off turn one or two, he is never going to get played.
Off the top of my head, Meditate seems like it would be a good choice for its slot. You can trade an empty hand for four cards with LED, or just draw and win that turn and not care at all about skipping your next turn.

Also, against some random decks in this format, you can just skip a turn and not even care.

That said, I'm sure there is a better card for the deck, we just have to find it.

[xsockmonkeyx]

Ive been using Grim Tutor in place of Plunge and Trinket Mage. Its been really good as its easier to cast off a ritual and can grab anything. If you've got the cash then I highly recommend them (If not theres always MWS).

[Kronicler]

Meditate is an idea that has been tossed around here before, and with some merit. I'll test them a bit this weekend but my first feelings are against 'em. As I stated in my anti-trinket mage post, this deck rarely has blue mana mid combo (as 2 colors of mana are already required) which is when meditate is best. Also, I love not being dependant on draw while comboing. Nothing sucks more than fizzling to bad luck.

In terms of Grim Tutor: Yeah, it is an idea, but one of the greatest things about this deck is how cheep it is to build (allowing more players to pick it up and thereby expediting it's evolution), and frankly I don't want to spend that kind of money on 4 cards. If I did, I would play Vintage.

Kronicler

[xsockmonkeyx]

4 City of Brass - $8
1 Barbarian Ring - .50
1 Cabal Pit .10
4 Gemstone Mine 5.00
4 Xantid Swarm 4.00
1 Defense Grid 2.00
3 Seething Song .60
4 Rite of Flame .80
4 Infernal Tutor 9.00
4 Dark Ritual 1.00
3 Burning Wish 15.00
4 Lion's Eye Diamond 20.00
4 Chrome Mox 40.00
1 Tendrils of Agony 1.00
4 Lotus Petal 5.00
2 Meditate 6.00
4 Cabal Ritual 4.00
1 Empty the Warrens .10
2 Grapeshot .20
1 Ill-Gotten Gains 5.00
Total = 121.80

4 Grim Tutor - $400-600

.: 700 Dollar deck with 75% to 85% of the deck being the tutors. Sideboard is extra.

[Citrus-God]

4 City of Brass - $8
1 Barbarian Ring - .50
1 Cabal Pit .10
4 Gemstone Mine 5.00
4 Xantid Swarm 4.00
1 Defense Grid 2.00
3 Seething Song .60
4 Rite of Flame .80
4 Infernal Tutor 9.00
4 Dark Ritual 1.00
3 Burning Wish 15.00
4 Lion's Eye Diamond 20.00
4 Chrome Mox 40.00
1 Tendrils of Agony 1.00
4 Lotus Petal 5.00
2 Meditate 6.00
4 Cabal Ritual 4.00
1 Empty the Warrens .10
2 Grapeshot .20
1 Ill-Gotten Gains 5.00
Total = 121.80

4 Grim Tutor - $400-600

.: 700 Dollar deck with 75% to 85% of the deck being the tutors. Sideboard is extra.

Some of the cards are over valued. Ill-Gotten-Gians, Meditates and Gemstone Mine are only $3. Infernal Tutors, Burning Wishes, and City of Brasses are only $6 each. Xantid Swarm is only 2.50-3.50.

[xsockmonkeyx]

Yeah, well, that was a rough estimate. Some cards will be a little more or less because it was off the top of my head. I just wanted to estimate the cost of the 56 other cards in the deck in comparison to the tutors.

BTW, the list is total, ie, 4 Citys for $8 etc.

[rsaunder]

You know what, I'm going to disprove Trinket Mage once and for all...
2) Because this deck almost always requires both red and black mana to combo off, and because we combo so quickly (most of the time with 1 or 2 lands on the field), blue mana is seldom available mid combo meaning trinket mage can become a dead card and sometimes an actual problem if you need to become hellbent.

That doesn't make any sense.

Trinketmage is never mana disadvantage, gets you the LED to get hellbent and combo with IGG, and with HOA in play is mana advantage.

[iOWN]

I guess I should bring this over here from the combo discussion thread, since it is kind of off topic there.

The fork plan means you have the combo which is pretty Irrelvant at that point, no? And yes, playing more IGG's makes you more graveyard reliant because in order to play them you'll be using intuition. What does TES not lose to? Graveyard hate. If you make those changes its a hybrid of Iggy Pop and TES which in my opinion seems weaker than one or the other. Since the format is full of graveyard hate I'll pass.

I'm glad to see you're reconsidering Xantid Swarm, you won't regret it.

I for one don't want to be even the slightest bit reliant on my graveyard, because when you use the graveyard more than need be you'll see hate for it and when you actually NEED your graveyard you'll be cut off(By hate). When it comes down to it in my opinion is comes down to how comfortable are you losing to graveyard hate. I for one love Mage and won't cut it until a better card comes out.

On Draw 4's they are generally unreliable when it comes to TES, because at all times TES want's specific cards and draw 4's hardly deliver.

EDIT:: To support Intuiton you would have to add more Ill-Gotten Gains which takes up slots in the deck. Intuition makes you rely on Ill-Gotten Gains and when you rely on Ill-Gotten Gains to make Intuition good. You are relying on your graveyard in a format full of grave hate for Threshold. This just isn't logical to me.

I still don't think that having the IGG's in the deck means you rely on the graveyard. If they have hate sitting on their side of the table, just go off with a Draw4, Tutors + Accel or Diminishing Returns. You never need to use it just because it's there.

If you know the deck you're playing against packs some sort of GY hate, just board out 2 or all Ill-Gotten Gains. That way you won't run into any problems.

I'm still not seeing how Mage > Intuition. Intuition can fetch anything in the deck, Mage just gets LED. Intuition does a better job of getting LED, because it can get three of them instead of one. If you want to get Tendrils with Intuition all you have to do is search for Wish + Wish + Tendrils and fetch it. Intuition just seems like it does everything and more.

[Bryant Cook]

My deck is worth a bit more but that is irrelevant. My deck is almost all asian'd out once it arrives...

1.) Even if Trinket Mage doesn't gain you card advantage in which it does(Creaturre and card to hand.) Even if you waste a Rite of Flame, Lotus Petal, Ritual mana on Trinket Mage it's still card replacement; where Careful study can't even do that.

2.) With Lotus Petals and land/on occasion Chrome Mox I don't see blue being very difficult.

3.) You are wrong here, it's not that you are uncapable of winning it's that against control Mage forces through 2 damage at a time being a Tendrils every hit. yes, Threshold is control. Winning during the opportune time is key and Trinket Mage sets this time up. Forcing them to tap out or dig for more counters when they tap out(or enough) is your time to win.

4.) Calling me stubborn doesn't do anything. I have tested other cards in it's slot. I do make in what I believe are optimal deck choices if you disagree, so be it change the slot. The only other card in Trinket Mages slot I actually like is Night's Whsiper because it has a low casting cost, primary color and also set's up. But life loss can be annoying, which is why I don't play Grim Tutor.

[Alfred]

Wastedlife, I don't want to be a dick here, because I really like the setup of the deck, but I too think that Trinket Mage just costs too much. Many times I've found that I draw into them only to find that I have to burn a peice of acceleration in order to cast it.

I'm going to experiment a bit with some of the "on-top" tutors like Mystical Tutor and Enlightened Tutor. Careful Study doesn't sound too bad either, but Brainstorm + tutor effects can really own shit too and digs deeper, so I think that may be a viable alternative.

[Kronicler]

That doesn't make any sense.

You want me to elaborate further than "we seldom have blue mana when comboing" ? Ok. One of the great things about TES is that it uses 5 color lands. This allows us to use set up / protection cards of any color as well as use 2 different color ritual effects as well as the same 2 color tutor effects while comboing. A problem arises though when we attempt to use 3 different colors while comboing (red, black, and blue) because only in rare cases will you be comboing with 3 lands to provide you with the colors you require(as only 10 lands are in the deck, and we go off turn 1-3). Another way to achieve 3 all color sources is to have 2 lands and a lotus petal, but because this situation does not happen every game (or even close to it) the blue combo cards will more often than not be unusable. Using blue, green, or white set up cards is fine, as producing a single mana of any color by itself is never a problem. The problem is trying to produce 3 different colors of mana in a single turn reliably while maintaining this decks speed and consistency

[Bryant Cook]

Wastedlife, I don't want to be a dick here, because I really like the setup of the deck, but I too think that Trinket Mage just costs too much. Many times I've found that I draw into them only to find that I have to burn a peice of acceleration in order to cast it.

I'm going to experiment a bit with some of the "on-top" tutors like Mystical Tutor and Enlightened Tutor. Careful Study doesn't sound too bad either, but Brainstorm + tutor effects can really own shit too and digs deeper, so I think that may be a viable alternative.

Trinket Mage has been replaced with cards that cost the same as Mage in other people's lists. I did somemore testing tonight against Mr.Nightmare I didn't really notice too much of a differencer between Trinketmage and Night's Whisper.

Ontop tutors are bad with Threshold being played(Predict) weakening your match-up as well as them being card disadvantage. B-storm just doesn't have enough suffle effects.

[xsockmonkeyx]

Here are some pros and cons of the cards considered for the Trinket Mage slot. I probably missed some stuff so feel free to correct or add something.


Trinket Mage -
Pros: really cheap($), chump blockage + maybe some beats, sac to plunge, therapy.
Cons: 3 mana, U in casting cost, "only" grabs <2 cc artifacts. When played, it doesnt add to threshhold unless sacced or killed

Night's Whisper-
Pros: cheap($), represents actual CA instead of parity, black spell with 2CC.
Cons: loss of life, grabs 2 random cards.

Intuition-
Pros: Can (potentially) grab any card, builds threshold, instant which can be played EOT if needed.
Cons: kind of expen$ive, 3 mana + U mana cost, may require 3ofs to maximize its tutoring ability


Grim Tutor-
Pros: grabs anything with or without hellbent, black spell
Cons: a bajillion dollars for a playset, 3cc, loss of 3 life.

Meditate-
Pros: affordable($)draw 4 type card advantage
Cons: comboing out may require luck as your next 4 cards are random. 3 mana, U in casting cost.

Infernal Contract-
Pros: cheap($) draw 4, black spell.
Cons: huge loss of life, BBB is tough at times, the 4 cards are random

And now some questions:


How often do you wish Trinket Mage could grab more than a 0-1cc artifact? How much benefit is the 2/2 body the decks strategy?

Is Grim Tutor too expensive to even consider? If Grim Tutor was only worth a dollar then would it be in the deck?

If Intuition is used then are 3ofs necessary?

Which is better in TES, a tutor or a draw 4s?

How much of an issue is lifeloss due to your own spells?

EDIT: is Impulse worthy of consideration?