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Thread: [Discussion] Fast Combo - what is best?

  1. #1

    [Discussion] Fast Combo - what is best?

    I like combo decks, Legacy combo decks in particular. This thread is for comparisons and discussion. If we can leave the comments here, we can keep the actual threads on decks like Iggy Pop, Nausea, Contract Tendrils, TES, Veggie Tendrils on subject at seriously evolving the decks. Additionally, I've found that discussion on differences in combo decks leads to sparks for new ideas and combinations, and this leads to better decks. For purposes of fast combo, I'm including 2-land belcher, Contract Tendrils/SI, Nausea, Iggy Pop, TES, and Veggie Tendrils. If I'm leaving something out, let me know.

    I'd like to start off with how to avoid hate. So far, I've seen a variety of different answers to threats like Meddling Mage, Tormod's Crypt, Wasteland, Duress/Discard, Force of Will/countermagic, Orim's Chant, enchantments like Pyrostatic Pillar and Rule of Law, etc.

    TES, Belcher and Contract Tendrils play multiple threats and alternate win conditions. Veggie Tendrils, Nausea, and Iggy Pop all play some form of bounce/removal. What is the best way to respond to:

    Meddling Mage
    Tormod's Crypt
    Wasteland
    Basic land destruction (Sinkhole, Vindicate, Ghost Quarter)
    Cheap Discard (Duress/Cabal Therapy)
    Countermagic (FoW, Daze, Counterspell)
    Orim's Chant/Abeyance
    Pyrostatic Pillar
    Rule of Law/Arcane Laboratory

    Hopefully, we can work out some strategies to improve our game against hate. When responding, please don't say something like "SI ignores crypt." These comments aren't helpful. If you're going to post something, please explain it so we can make something out of the comment.

    Finally, I'd like to ask all of the deck creators to send me an "official" list for comparison. I'm going to post those here. I'll change them if asked to, but I'd like to have easily available what builds and cards we're actually discussing. I'll post them alphabetically to avoid preferences.

    ---------
    Decklists
    ---------
    Belcher by Diablos

    Maindeck:
    4 Goblin Charbelcher
    4 Lion's Eye Diamond
    4 Dark Ritual
    4 Cabal Ritual
    4 Birds of Paradise
    4 Elvish Spirit Guide
    4 Tinder Wall
    4 Chromatic Star
    3 Goblin Welder
    4 Land Grant
    4 Cabal Therapy
    4 Infernal Tutor
    4 Spoils of the Vault
    4 Chrome Mox
    4 Lotus Petal
    1 Taiga
    1 Bayou

    Sideboard:
    4 Xantid Swarm
    4 Krosan Grip
    3 Tendrils of Agony
    4 Duress


    Iggy Pop by bomholmm

    Maindeck:
    4 Polluted Delta
    4 Flooded Strand
    2 Underground Sea
    1 Cabal Pit
    3 Island
    2 Swamp
    4 Lotus Petal
    4 Lion's Eye Diamond
    4 Dark Ritual
    4 Cabal Ritual
    3 Tendrils of Agony
    4 Ill-Gotten Gains
    4 Leyline of the Void
    4 Mystical Tutor
    4 Infernal Tutor
    4 Intuition
    4 Brainstorm
    1 Wipe Away

    Sideboard:
    3 Chain of Vapor
    4 Defense Grid
    1 Wipe Away
    3 Massacre
    1 Echoing Truth
    3 Meta Slots


    Nausea by Evil Roopey

    Maindeck:
    2 Bloodstained Mire
    2 Polluted Delta
    4 City of Traitors
    1 Volcanic Island
    1 Badlands
    1 Underground Sea
    1 Bayou
    2 Chromatic Star
    3 Tendrils of Agony
    1 Ill-Gotten Gains
    2 Repeal
    4 Helm of Awakening
    4 Lotus Petal
    4 Spoils of the Vault
    4 Burning Wish
    1 Meditate
    4 Chromatic Sphere
    4 Dark Ritual
    4 Cabal Ritual
    4 Lion's Eye Diamond
    4 Sleight of Hand
    3 Infernal Tutor

    Sideboard:
    SB: 1 Doomsday
    SB: 1 Tendrils of Agony
    SB: 1 Ill-Gotten Gains
    SB: 1 Simplify
    SB: 1 Echoing Ruin
    SB: 1 Diminishing Returns
    SB: 1 Unmask
    SB: 1 Night's Whisper
    SB: 1 Infernal Contract
    SB: 1 Regrowth
    SB: 1 Firebolt
    SB: 1 Cabal Therapy
    SB: 1 Duress
    SB: 1 Massacre
    SB: 1 Pyroclasm

    SI by emidln

    Maindeck:
    4 Land Grant
    2 Bayou
    4 Lotus Petal
    4 Chrome Mox
    4 Dark Ritual
    4 Cabal Ritual
    4 Culling the Weak
    4 Lion's Eye Diamond
    4 Shield Sphere
    4 Phyrexian Walker
    4 Cruel Bargain
    4 Infernal Contract
    4 Cabal Therapy
    4 Infernal Tutor
    2 Ill-Gotten Gains
    3 Tendrils of Agony
    1 Goblin Charbelcher

    Sideboard:
    4 Tomb of Urami
    4 Phyrexian Negator
    4 Avatar of Discord
    3 Naturalize

    The Epic Storm (TES) by wastedlife

    Maindeck:
    4 City of Brass
    3 Gemstone Mine
    2 Cabal Pit
    1 Forbidden Orchard
    3 Xantid Swarm
    3 Trinket Mage
    4 Lion's Eye Diamond
    4 Lotus Petal
    4 Chrome Mox
    1 Ill-Gotten Gains
    4 Burning Wish
    1 Tendrils of Agony
    4 Dark Ritual
    4 Cabal Ritual
    3 Infernal Tutor
    3 Plunge into Darkness
    1 Grapeshot
    1 Diminishing Returns
    4 Rite of Flame
    3 Seething Song
    2 Cabal Therapy
    1 Empty the Warrens

    Sideboard:
    SB: 1 Ill-Gotten Gains
    SB: 1 Tendrils of Agony
    SB: 1 Infernal Tutor
    SB: 1 Grapeshot
    SB: 1 Diminishing Returns
    SB: 2 Empty the Warrens
    SB: 1 Recoup
    SB: 2 Rebuild
    SB: 1 Cleanfall
    SB: 1 Shattering Spree
    SB: 1 Pyroclasm
    SB: 2 Defense Grid
    Last edited by emidln; 11-23-2006 at 11:54 PM. Reason: Added TES, SI, Nausea, Iggy Pop
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  2. #2

    Re: [Discussion] Fast Combo - what is best?

    Quote Originally Posted by emidln View Post
    What is the best way to respond to:

    Meddling Mage
    So far, I believe it is to play more threats. I have been following a philosophy of "win asap" to the extent of optimizing for kills in the early turns. To back this up, I play two win conditions in SI: Tendrils of Agony and Goblin Charbelcher. A single Meddling Mage doesn't phase me since I have a backup plan.

    Tormod's Crypt
    Tormod's Crypt only has two uses against SI. The first is to turn off Threshold for Cabal Ritual. The other is to disallow the 2x IGG. SI is actually not designed around IGG, instead attempting to gain most of its power from draw4s and tutors. As such, it is not particularly affected by IGG. In fact, IGG is normally one of the first things to get boarded out as it lets me create card advantage by letting my opponent side in dead Tormod's Crypts.

    I believe the best way to counteract crypt is to not rely on the graveyard. I think that my build of SI reflects this sentiment. The way I picked was a combinations of tutors and card draw.

    Wasteland
    Wasteland isn't much of a problem for SI. SI was designed to go off with a single mana source (and plays only 14 maindeck, enough to draw 1 in my opening hand consistently), and as such, treats its Bayous as Lotus Petals 5 and 6. This, by extension, turns Land Grant into Lotus Petals 7, 8, 9, and 10. The general philosophy is to hold land until absolutely necessary as they are one-use only.

    Basic land destruction (Sinkhole, Vindicate, Ghost Quarter)
    The Wasteland theory for SI applies here too. Additionally, I can try to "race" most Land Destruction with pure speed. Combined with not playing land until I go off, this has proven an effective strategy.

    Cheap Discard (Duress/Cabal Therapy)
    Due to the rogue-ish qualities of my deck, as well as the multiple avenues of comboing, Therapy has not been particularly effective against me. Duress, on the other hand, can be crippling when I'm on the draw. Most hands contain a key spell that can significantly slow me down if taken. Thankfully, this spell is not always obvious at first glance. Also, a significant percentage of the time (I've found this to be around 30% of the time), I have enough redundancy to survive a single Duress.

    Duress followed by Hymn to Tourach is hard to beat. I think that draw4s and IGG allow me some lattitude in avoiding discard, but beating more than 3 discard spells involves a certain amount of luck in topdecking the right mix of business, mana sources, and rituals. I think that with proper deck construction this is very possible. I would lead you to SI for an example of this with Draw4s being very important.

    Countermagic (FoW, Daze, Counterspell)
    My answers here are Cabal Therapy and speed. If I lack the Cabal Therapy, I hope my significant turn 1 goldfish matches well against my opponent's 40% of having Force of Will. Matches including FoW and Daze generally leave me sideboarding into the "man plan", a transformational sideboard designed to beat aggro-control strategies. This has been found to be effective in game 2, but game 3, if needed, is an intricate mix of mind games with both me and my opponent guessing what my deck will be.

    I have not had good results with Xantid Swarm. Additionally, Defense Grid costs too much mana to use in my deck. As reflected in SI's redundant threats in draw4s and tutors, my feeling is the best plan of counterattack is to play multiple threats in an attempt to use my opponent's countermagic as storm to kill them.

    Orim's Chant/Abeyance
    My only outs to Orim's Chant and Abeyance are Cabal Therapies, Speed, and the periodic ability to combo multiple turns in a row through draw4s. Much of the strategy to avoid counterspells applies here for SI. I attempt to go off quickly to race the Orim's Chant and take Abeyance out of consideration if I don't have a Therapy.

    Outside of minimal protection like Duress, Therapy, our own Chants, or something like Xantid Swarm, avoiding Orim's Chant is difficult. In my mind, the best way to minimize the chances that they can chant in response to a tutor, draw spell, or something like IGG is to increase the speed of my deck as much as possible, effectively allowing my opponent 7 cards to find Chant or lose.

    Pyrostatic Pillar/Rule of Law/Arcane Laboratory
    General comments about speed aside (I race it since it costs 2 mana), I have a maindeck out in Goblin Charbelcher since it requires fewer spells, as well as sideboard options of Naturalize and/or transforming into a Sui-black deck. Additionally, Cabal Therapy is a general purpose out.
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  3. #3
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    Re: [Discussion] Fast Combo - what is best?

    While the deck isn't tendrils based it is still fast combo. I know there was a thread for this some tiem ago, but I believe it got deleted or something. This was the list I was running before I stopped testing it. It can be confusing and luck-based to get the set-up, but after that it usually auto pilots to a very large Stroke of Genius.

    I believe the name of the deck was:

    Hard Boiled Awsome Sauce

    // Lands
    4 [IN] Archaeological Dig
    4 [MI] Crystal Vein
    1 [OD] Cephalid Coliseum
    1 [OD] Barbarian Ring
    4 [EX] City of Traitors

    // Creatures
    4 [IA] Tinder Wall

    // Spells
    3 [JU] Cunning Wish
    3 [EX] Reclaim
    4 [MI] Mystical Tutor
    4 [TE] Lotus Petal
    4 [MR] Second Sunrise
    2 [OD] Mossfire Egg
    4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
    4 [IN] Chromatic Sphere
    4 [FD] Conjurer's Bauble
    4 [OD] Sungrass Egg
    4 [OD] Skycloud Egg
    1 [VI] Summer Bloom
    1 [UL] Crop Rotation

    // Sideboard
    SB: 1 [EX] Reclaim
    SB: 1 [JU] Krosan Reclamation
    SB: 1 [ON] Naturalize
    SB: 1 [ON] Chain of Vapor
    SB: 4 [UL] Defense Grid
    SB: 1 [SC] Stifle
    SB: 1 [AQ] Hurkyl's Recall
    SB: 1 [PS] Orim's Chant
    SB: 1 [US] Stroke of Genius
    SB: 1 [JU] Ray of Revelation
    SB: 1 [PS] Rushing River
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  4. #4
    Get Money, Ghost
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    Re: [Discussion] Fast Combo - what is best?

    Meddling Mage
    Race it, Cabal Pit, Grapeshot, Wipe Away, Empty the Warrens and other alt wins.

    Tormod's Crypt
    Pithing Needle, Artifact D prior to comboing out, Split Second cards

    Wasteland
    One waste shouldn't be a big deal, but use the tempo to your advantage and try to combo out on your next turn before they can get another land drop.

    Basic land destruction (Sinkhole, Vindicate, Ghost Quarter)
    If that's the only form of disruption, try to set up a hand that you could win with one land.

    Cheap Discard (Duress/Cabal Therapy)
    Pray. Hope they don't have a clock, and try to set up your win.


    Countermagic (FoW, Daze, Counterspell)
    Dont't be dumb and overextend. Don't rely on only IGG, try to grab multiple tutors/wishes/ect. Remember, your win conditions are uncounterable, its the set up cards they're worrying about.
    Also, run Xantid Swarm if possible

    Orim's Chant/Abeyance
    Duress/Therapy, watch for it. You should have won game 1 against most decks packing it, so just try to race it or build up hands that can win through it.

    Pyrostatic Pillar
    SS Cards, Multiple Tendrils, destruction, bounce, Empty the Warrens(6 mana for a 3 turn clock)

    Rule of Law/Arcane Laboratory
    These, you should be able to race unless your opponent is packing acceleration. Blow them up or beat down with any creatures you may pack(Mages, random Elves and whatnot)
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  5. #5
    Bryant Cook
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    Re: [Discussion] Fast Combo - what is best?

    Meddling Mage - The EPIC Storm has 4x Burning wish, Tendrils of Agony, Empty the warrens, Cabal Pit and Grapeshot to answer Meddling Mage. Having more threats in the MD allows you to shrug off Meddling Mage and act as if they weren't there.

    Tormod's Crypt- The best way to deal with Tormod's Crypt is to way around it, since TES doesn't rely on the Graveyard. You can always use Empty the Warrens if you can't generate enough storm. You also have Diminishing Returns to up storm count or just combo out with tutors until you've reached 10.

    Land Destruction- The EPIC Storm shrugs off land destruction, after all the deck plays 15 ritual effects, 12 artifact mana and 10 lands one wasteland won't kill you. All you need is one maybe two mana sources to go off with TES. Against decks with wasteland and you only have one land hand, often you should hold your land until it comes time to play it.

    Hand disruption- Play your lands and artifact mana as fast as possible, and hold tutors. Cast tutors for Ill-Gotten Gains or Diminishing Returns, if possible go aggro with a small Empty the Warrens.

    Counterspells and White Protection(Chant/Abeyance)- You run Xantid Swarm and Cabal Therapy, try and use Cabal Therapy the turn you want to win. Also bait out counter magic with Trinket Mages and Tutors. Cast a Burning Wish with 0 Storm if need be. You do have Defense Grid post SB, against decks with counter magic I generally SB a Warrens and Try to win with men.

    Pyrostatic Pillar- With The EPIC Storm you have 4 options.
    Option a.) Win with Empty the Warrens.
    Option b.) Burning Wish for Cleanfall
    Option c.) Cast a smaller Tendrils then recurr it with Igg and cast it again.
    Option d.) Burning wish for Tendrils, then Infernal Tendrils and cast 2 Small Tendrils.

    Arcane Lab/Rule of Law- Win before they can cast it, Trinket Mage beats or Burning Wish for Cleanfall.

  6. #6
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    Re: [Discussion] Fast Combo - what is best?

    Personally, my issue is not with the ability to go against any combination or specific incidents of hate, but the overall effectiveness of the deck. I'd like to see first what a deck is fully capable of with the goldfish, then see what hate it worries about most second.

    What are the numbers for consistent (60% minimum occurence) turn kills? I know that personally, IGGy runs about a 70% turn 3 kill, with like a 25% turn 2 and a 5% turn 1, give or take 5% for turns 1 and 2 (20/10 at best), at least for my build. I haven't bothered doing much research on the later revisions past the maindeck Leylines, so my build is probably not 100% current.

    I'm mainly curious to see what TES, Contract Tendrils and Veggie Tendrils are showing for consistency and speed, as I'm quite unfamiliar with any of those as of now.
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  7. #7

    Re: [Discussion] Fast Combo - what is best?

    Quote Originally Posted by DeathwingZERO View Post
    Personally, my issue is not with the ability to go against any combination or specific incidents of hate, but the overall effectiveness of the deck. I'd like to see first what a deck is fully capable of with the goldfish, then see what hate it worries about most second.

    What are the numbers for consistent (60% minimum occurence) turn kills? I know that personally, IGGy runs about a 70% turn 3 kill, with like a 25% turn 2 and a 5% turn 1, give or take 5% for turns 1 and 2 (20/10 at best), at least for my build. I haven't bothered doing much research on the later revisions past the maindeck Leylines, so my build is probably not 100% current.

    I'm mainly curious to see what TES, Contract Tendrils and Veggie Tendrils are showing for consistency and speed, as I'm quite unfamiliar with any of those as of now.
    On the play, the build of Contract Tendrils with Therapy goldfishes about 60% of the time on turn 1. On the draw, it is up to 65-70%. The B/u version with fetchlands and Meditate and the B/g version with Diabolic Intent both goldfish around 70% of the time turn 1 on the play, and between 75-80% turn 1 on the draw. Of course, the tournament viability of the lists without Therapy is questionable. If you don't attempt a turn 1, your percentage goes up roughly 5-7% for each card you see until you hit turn 3/4, by which time, a hand properly mulled will always win or kill you after you draw half your deck and fail to find a tutor/tendrils/belcher (this happens like 4% of the time...it blows). I've found that about 40% of the time, failed combo attempts on turn 1 set up turn 2 kills. Likewise with turn 2 failures setting up turn 3 kills. About 70% of the time, a failed turn 1 attempt will result in a turn 3/4 kill. Usually this is the worst case scenario because past that you are likely dead, although the generally high power level of SI allows you to recover when an opponent is tapped out or has managed to rid you of your hand. SI has the fastest goldfishes of any legacy-legal deck I'm aware of. I would challenge that it is more consistent at turn 1'ing than Vintage SX.

    The only time SI is down and out for the count is when at 0 life or facing 3sphere/2sphere + smokestack/wasteland lock. The ability to draw 4 cards for 2-3 cards (possibly leaving mana left over) in a deck that is all mana and draw is really good, and allows you to somewhat recover from bad situations.
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  8. #8
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    Re: [Discussion] Fast Combo - what is best?

    @noobslayer: I believe that thread was started in response to my thread over on the WotC site. Here's my current list:

    Hardboiled Awesome Sauce

    Maindeck: 60

    Lands: 13

    Archaeological Dig x 4
    Cephalid Coliseum x 2
    City of Traitors x 3
    Crystal Vein x 4

    Mana Acceleration: 11

    Lion’s Eye Diamond x 3
    Lotus Petal x 4
    Tinder Wall x 4

    Engine: 13

    Crop Rotation x 1
    Mystical Tutor x 4
    Reclaim x 4
    Second Sunrise x 4

    Fuel: 20

    Chromatic Sphere x 4
    Cromatic Star x 4
    Conjurer’s Bauble x 4
    Skycloud Egg x 4
    Sungrass Egg x 4

    Protection: 3

    Angel’s Grace x 1
    Chain of Vapor x 1
    Abeyance x 1

    Sideboard: 15

    Alternate Win Condition: 1

    Decree of Justice x 1

    Lands: 1

    Cephalid Coliseum x 1

    Protection: 13

    Angel’s Grace x 2
    Phyrexian Furnace x 4
    Abeyance x 2
    Echoing Truth x 3
    Gaea’s Blessing x 1
    Rushing River x 1

  9. #9
    Bryant Cook
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    Re: [Discussion] Fast Combo - what is best?

    I'm not really sure on how other people get there percentages, but out of 20 games these were my results for The EPIC Storm.
    Turn 1 Combo Out: 6 Games
    Turn 2 Combo Out: 9 Games
    Turn 3 Combo Out: 5 Games
    I wrote Combo Out because of Empty the Warrens changes things since you aren’t truly killing that turn. Three of the turn 1 combo's were Empty the Warrens, 4 of the turn 2 combo's were Empty the Warrens and there was 0 Warren beats on turn 3. The addition of Empty the Warrens to any combo deck will increase its turn ratio because it allows you to essentially win on turn 1 with a storm of 5.

  10. #10
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    Re: [Discussion] Fast Combo - what is best?

    Quote Originally Posted by wastedlife View Post
    I'm not really sure on how other people get there percentages, but out of 20 games these were my results for The EPIC Storm.
    Turn 1 Combo Out: 6 Games
    Turn 2 Combo Out: 9 Games
    Turn 3 Combo Out: 5 Games
    I wrote Combo Out because of Empty the Warrens changes things since you aren’t truly killing that turn. Three of the turn 1 combo's were Empty the Warrens, 4 of the turn 2 combo's were Empty the Warrens and there was 0 Warren beats on turn 3. The addition of Empty the Warrens to any combo deck will increase its turn ratio because it allows you to essentially win on turn 1 with a storm of 5.
    That's assuming they don't rip something like Pyroclasm, Earthquake @ 1, Ghostly Prison/Propaganda, or even Goblin Sharpshooter, Starstorm @ 1, ect.

    I really dislike both having to wait a turn to win, and having to just throw a bunch of very vulnerable critters out there and rely on them surviving.

    I mean, winning with such a low storm is nice, but it's an awfully risky gameplan to go into blind. I feel like, if getting a high storm count is an issue, then the focus should be on making combo more consistent, rather than bringing in sub-par win conditions as a crutch to the greater weakness of the deck.

    I really like it as a backup win condition in case you can't hit a high storm count, but I'd be wary of making the focus of the deck winning with creatures in a format with so many ways to stop that.
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  11. #11
    Bryant Cook
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    Re: [Discussion] Fast Combo - what is best?

    Quote Originally Posted by outsideangel View Post
    That's assuming they don't rip something like Pyroclasm, Earthquake @ 1, Ghostly Prison/Propaganda, or even Goblin Sharpshooter, Starstorm @ 1, ect.

    I really dislike both having to wait a turn to win, and having to just throw a bunch of very vulnerable critters out there and rely on them surviving.

    I mean, winning with such a low storm is nice, but it's an awfully risky gameplan to go into blind. I feel like, if getting a high storm count is an issue, then the focus should be on making combo more consistent, rather than bringing in sub-par win conditions as a crutch to the greater weakness of the deck.

    I really like it as a backup win condition in case you can't hit a high storm count, but I'd be wary of making the focus of the deck winning with creatures in a format with so many ways to stop that.
    Making 12-2X goblins on Turn 1 I don't see Sharpshooter/Starstorm being very relevant when they can't cast it and who the hell plays Earthquake? Propaganda/Ghostly Prison please, if the deck is playing those cards their deck is full of removal and I'll have time to rebuild. I don't think you understand Empty the Warrens it allows easy wins, why not make 12 dudes turn 1 against Threshold? They don't have an answer. The deck's focus was never to win with 1/1 men, but it can. If I know my opponent plays mass removal or alot of removal in general I wouldn't win with Warrens, I'd sit back and win with Tendrils of Agony or Grapeshot. The deck isn't unstable, stability has nothing to do with winning with Empty the Warrens. Empty the Warrens is an uncounterable threat that alot of top decks in the format can't deal with. Alot of the answers to Empty the Warrens you listed are not seen in widely played decks; theres only two cards that are widely played that you listed, Pyroclasm is a sideboard card and won't be seen game 1 and Sharpshooter and alot of Goblin list's cut him so I don't know where you are going with this.

  12. #12
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    Re: [Discussion] Fast Combo - what is best?

    Iggy Pop is my answer. It has proven itself in larger tournaments. That isn't to say one of these other decks might do that but I am doubtful. The other Tendrils based decks seem too "random" by this I mean that they have to storm up without a real engine. Playing Night's Whisper or Infernal Contract into the win seems way too unstable. These decks seem to lack a clear path to victory. They have to draw into what they need. Iggy Pop doesn't have this problem. It setups a win and then it actually wins. It doesn't attempt to "go off". Sure it loses to Force of Will on its IGG but doesn't countering an Infernal Contract do that just as well?

  13. #13
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    Re: [Discussion] Fast Combo - what is best?

    Quote Originally Posted by wastedlife View Post
    Making 12-2X goblins on Turn 1 I don't see Sharpshooter/Starstorm being very relevant when they can't cast it and who the hell plays Earthquake? Propaganda/Ghostly Prison please, if the deck is playing those cards their deck is full of removal and I'll have time to rebuild. I don't think you understand Empty the Warrens it allows easy wins, why not make 12 dudes turn 1 against Threshold? They don't have an answer. The deck's focus was never to win with 1/1 men, but it can. If I know my opponent plays mass removal or alot of removal in general I wouldn't win with Warrens, I'd sit back and win with Tendrils of Agony or Grapeshot. The deck isn't unstable, stability has nothing to do with winning with Empty the Warrens. Empty the Warrens is an uncounterable threat that alot of top decks in the format can't deal with. Alot of the answers to Empty the Warrens you listed are not seen in widely played decks; theres only two cards that are widely played that you listed, Pyroclasm is a sideboard card and won't be seen game 1 and Sharpshooter and alot of Goblin list's cut him so I don't know where you are going with this.

    "Played in the 'top 3' decks" and "widely played" are very different things in Legacy. Sure, if the only things you're going to play all day are Goblins, Gro, and Solidarity, then winning with a token swarm is fine. But there's a lot of randomness in this format, and you have to take that into consideration. That randomness is the reason why decks like Angel Stax aren't as competative as they could be, why Solidarity is probably better than Spring Tide, and why win conditions like Tendrils are better than Empty the Warrens.

    Speaking of Spring Tide, why isn't it on this list? Solidarity's little brother should certainly be included in a discussion of fast combo decks. It wins a little bit later than, say, TES (Spring Tide wins generally turn 3) but is very, very reliable.
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  14. #14
    Bryant Cook
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    Re: [Discussion] Fast Combo - what is best?

    Quote Originally Posted by outsideangel View Post
    "Played in the 'top 3' decks" and "widely played" are very different things in Legacy. Sure, if the only things you're going to play all day are Goblins, Gro, and Solidarity, then winning with a token swarm is fine. But there's a lot of randomness in this format, and you have to take that into consideration. That randomness is the reason why decks like Angel Stax aren't as competative as they could be, why Solidarity is probably better than Spring Tide, and why win conditions like Tendrils are better than Empty the Warrens.

    Speaking of Spring Tide, why isn't it on this list? Solidarity's little brother should certainly be included in a discussion of fast combo decks. It wins a little bit later than, say, TES (Spring Tide wins generally turn 3) but is very, very reliable.
    I'm aware that there are other decks in the format than "The top 3" but large events often consist of "The Top 3" in large quantities. Storm Combo generally beats randomness anyways, Empty the Warrens isn't the main kill and I don't think you understand that but it is very optimal and a Tendrils with a different name. I'm also aware that Tendrils is better than Empty the Warrens but as another option Empty the Warrens is the best second option we(as a Format) have.

  15. #15
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    Re: [Discussion] Fast Combo - what is best?

    Let's not worry about how good or bad Empty the Warrens is as a win condition. Basically, if that is considered the win condition, take into effect how many of them you made after the storm of x, play through the remaining number of turns it'd take you to swing, and see if you run through another storm count in the meantime.

    I believe the point of what Outside was originally saying is that Empty isn't a guaranteed win, so play through the goldfish turns as if they have to put the opponent to 0 life.

    I don't care at all about (what if situation x arises), because that once again doesn't give us any insight whatsoever into how the deck plays WITHOUT disruption involved.

    Oh and Wasted, our %s are basically a rough estimate of x number of games, and how many times you won by that timeframe. Like my numbers for IGGy, roughly 70% of the games I won on my third turn, undisrupted, 20-25% on turn 2, and 5-10 on turn 1.

    I would have to say my favorite thing about IGGy.....0% fizzle ratio. I love not having to deal with writing down games where I can get a storm of 15+ and go "Oops, didn't draw what I needed, I lose". Damn you Solidarity....

    EDIT: Oh, and I would second Spring Tide being on the list. After hearing a few things about recent updates versions of the "sorcery-speed Solidarity" got, I'm very interested in seeing the numbers for it/them.
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  16. #16

    Re: [Discussion] Fast Combo - what is best?

    Quote Originally Posted by DeathwingZERO View Post
    I would have to say my favorite thing about IGGy.....0% fizzle ratio. I love not having to deal with writing down games where I can get a storm of 15+ and go "Oops, didn't draw what I needed, I lose". Damn you Solidarity....
    This isn't strictly true. When under extreme duress from decks like UbaStax or faster combo decks, Iggy Pop can be forced into situations requiring Iggy Pop to go off using Brainstorm in a fashion similar to Contract Tendrils. Iggy Pop is poorly equipped to do this. The only matches I've observed this happening is versus Contract Tendrils and 2-Land Belcher when both had Lethal Belchers on the table and UbaStax when Smokestack was threatening to end the game.
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  17. #17
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    Re: [Discussion] Fast Combo - what is best?

    Has UbaStax even been a competitively viable deck in this format? I haven't even seen the thing put up good numbers in Vintage in months, and their manabase and tutor effects are way more stable.

    I will agree that under duress the deck will risk fizzling, but unlike Solidarity, Spring Tide, Nausea, etc......it doesn't "draw" into a win, it sets itself up for a strictly straightforward combo.

    In my opinion, the ability to attempt a draw win makes the deck even more adapted than the rest of the Storm decks at the moment, because it's backup is the same gameplan most the other decks use, even if it's much poorer. I've still considered running Meditates as a sideboard option, just for times when I want to side out IGG.
    Quote Originally Posted by YuanTi View Post
    Slightly off topic, but where is the Nourishing Lich in the DTB Forum?

  18. #18
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    Re: [Discussion] Fast Combo - what is best?

    As for the Pillar, 9 spells + Tendrils only make 18 damage, and only if all those spells did costs 3 or less (means not including Iggies). Since most decks which side Pillar are relying on spells with cc 3 or less (goblins, burn, ...), you often can bring them to low life and then wait to find the final Wish/Tutor/Grapeshot etc; this means Pillar is not really a problem (if they don't get it in multiples...).
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  19. #19

    Re: [Discussion] Fast Combo - what is best?

    Quote Originally Posted by DeathwingZERO View Post
    Has UbaStax even been a competitively viable deck in this format? I haven't even seen the thing put up good numbers in Vintage in months, and their manabase and tutor effects are way more stable.
    Well, I went X-2 in the Legacy Champs prelims and X-2 in Legacy Champs with it. It was definitely more viable than a number a decks, and that was before I seriously looked into the Goblins matchup, which has slightly improved. I haven't been able to take it to any major tournaments like SCG since then since SCG events are in the middle of BFE^WVirginia. The testing that I and others have done with the deck points to viability but I have no major results to back it up. It doesn't help that the 3 UbaStax players live in Iowa, Southern Illinois, and France.
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  20. #20
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    Re: [Discussion] Fast Combo - what is best?

    It is true that viability of a deck is pretty much questioned unless every place plays it, since even in the US we can't get good standing tournaments on a regular basis that aren't on the East Coast or in the middle of BF Nowhere.

    And as for Pyrostatic, nearly all decks have an answer to it without really trying, especially when you start looking at decks like Solidarity and IGGy, where half of the combo is 3 or more casting cost anyways. As stated before, it's really only a problem if you see burn or Goblins, things that already have you on a fast clock or less than 20 life, and Goblins rarely packs it anymore, as it's not really any faster than the deck is anyways.
    Quote Originally Posted by YuanTi View Post
    Slightly off topic, but where is the Nourishing Lich in the DTB Forum?

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