quite right, I have had to make this kind of play in a few situations before. Its usually when you are forced to try to combo when you haven't drawn into a tutor.Originally Posted by emidln
I played a game last week against goblins where after a first turn brainstorm I had a hand that consisted of two IGG and a ton of mana. My opponent had pulled the first turn lackey and was indicating that he was going to kill me on turn three. I played out all my mana recurred brainstorm twice cracking a fetch in between them and eventually pulled into an infernal for the win. So when hard pressed iggy can go into brainstorm recursion desperation mode but it doesn't happen often because of the consistency of the deck.
What do people think of Fork in Tendrils? I've been using it in a 5c Tendrils deck pretty much identical to TES but lacking the creatures; since it can avoid counters (assuming it is either a later combo off and you have enough resources, or that you resolved a mana source like Seething Song without it being countered), cheaply doubles draw fours, and becomes a second IGG (and I realized from Gearhart's strategy for Solidarity vs IGGy Pop that you can get an infinite storm count and then 10-20 mana with IGG + Fork with a Seething Song).
// Lands
4 [AN] City of Brass
4 [WL] Gemstone Mine
// Spells
3 [TE] Intuition
4 [CS] Rite of Flame
1 [MI] Infernal Contract
2 [TE] Meditate
4 [MR] Chrome Mox
1 [TSP] Grapeshot
3 [US] Ill-Gotten Gains
1 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
4 [IA] Dark Ritual
4 [TE] Lotus Petal
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
1 [AL] Diminishing Returns
4 [JU] Burning Wish
4 [DIS] Infernal Tutor
4 [TO] Cabal Ritual
4 [MR] Seething Song
4 [R] Fork
// Sideboard
SB: 1 [TSP] Grapeshot
SB: 1 [US] Ill-Gotten Gains
SB: 1 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
SB: 1 [AL] Diminishing Returns
SB: 1 [SC] Brain Freeze
SB: 1 [PT] Cruel Bargain
SB: 2 [GP] Shattering Spree
SB: 1 [OD] Recoup
SB: 3 [UL] Defense Grid
SB: 1 [IA] Pyroclasm
SB: 1 [CHK] Cleanfall
SB: 1 [R] Regrowth
I was happy with TES, since it is incredibly consistent and a blast to play, but the creatures in it were just slowing the combo down and were clunky to use so I cut them. Well, Priest (with Helm) and Trinket Mage didn't work, but I think Xantid Swarm could fit into the sideboard.
Other different things:
*3x Ill Gotten Gains allows you to make the chain, give you an easy out if your are likely to fizzle therefor increasing consistency, and also can ensure a win off of LED/Infernal Tutor.
*Intuition is a good tutor, and when it is not used can just sit on a Moxen. It can fetch LED, LED, LED which gives you amazing accel and colorfix if you have either an Infernal Tutor, Burning Wish, or IGG in your hand. It also can go for three Rites, although I never find myself doing that, or get the 3x IGG for a chain and then reuse Intuition to fetch tutors and Tendrils for the win. However I'm finding myself using this a little less, and might either cut it down a little more or just drop it altogether.
*Meditate is SO good. I may even go up to three. It is a strong turn one play off of Rite of Flame or Ritual, and is a draw4 without so much color commitment.
*1x Brain Freeze is good to board in as an alt. win since it gets around Life combo (if you ever come against it...), and recquires less of a storm count than Grapeshot. Plus, since you are comboing off on your turn unlike Solidarity, they will die anyways as long as they don't have something that skips their draw step. The only downside is that it isn't an instant kill, so if you are flooded with mana or something, you have a small chance of killing yourself.
I've been pretty satisfied with the testing results this is giving me, and hope to hear what wastedlife thinks about it.
I too tested Fork when I first started playing with red rituals. The problem with it is that Fork is a very narrow card. Especially in a deck that doesn't often have alot of RR floating. I know both versions run Rite of Flame and Seething Song but how often will you have both RR and Fork consistantly? I could mayeb see it asd a 1 of but then it's kind-of pointless.
As for the Solidarity idea that's why I origionally started playing Fork but the combo is a win-more. You'll need 3 pieces which means you tutored for them and more than likely you'll be able to win before the combo becomes relevent.
I believe that the creatures are a nessesary evil, without Xantid Swarm you just straight out lose to control. Priest of Gix was cut awhile ago, and Trinket Mage is just amazing. You claim they're slow and clunky but they cost the same as intuition and your playing those. I'm glad to see you liked TES.
I believe more than 1 MD Ill-Gotten Gains is a mistake because you only need one to win maybe two at the most. Chaining Igg's often gives you a storm count of higher than what you need and makes you more graveyard reliant. So, then cards like Tormod's crypt become relevant.
Meditate over Plunge is something to consider, I love Plunge into Darkness because of it's ability to set-up or go deep. I'll test Meditate over Plunge but I'd never cut Returns it's what makes the deck not need the graveyard at all.
I agree that Fork is kind of narrow, but I've actually pulled a double Meditate off maybe 1-3 times every 10 games. It can be kind of hard to cast, but you can usually do it with a hand with Ritual and Rite, or just Seething Song (it's such a powerful early combo card that I run four). Maybe going down to two or three with the excess Forks in the board, for the Gro and High Tide match-ups?
You're right that the (hard to set-up) combo doesn't usually happen, but the way I filtered through choices was looking at card versatility and Fork just can randomly save you in several situations.
I think 3 IGG is necessary when running Intuition, but also it increases your chance of starting with one and being able to combo turn one. Another thing to note is that an IGG can turn into mana accel when you happen to get multiples of LED (or Intuition them out). That may kind of seem circular, but I believe it does help out a little.
Do the IGGs really make you rely on your yard? I mean, if they have something like Crypt out you can either combo without IGG (there is plenty of other ways to rack up your storm) or IGG and then Fork it in response to the Crypt.
I definitely am going to reconsider the Xantid Swarms, but the reason I said in the SB was because they have to be one of the worst things to find in a draw4. Other than that they play great, especially vs Solidarity.
Though, the Trinket Mages are a little different. Intuition can always do the same as Trinkets, and then some. Triple LED is better than a single one to hand, and it plays the role of tutor in an IGG loop. I just never find him actually pushing damage through to my opponent. The way I chose Fork is the same way I chose Intuition; Intuition and Trinket Mage are equally 'slow and clunky', but Intuition is a much wider card -- three times more versatile to be exact. I just don't see a reason to be playing Trinket Mage over it.
And I agree: Returns are definitely one of the most powerful cards in the deck. :)
That seems like some extra fresh simmering dog shit if you ask me. I'll sit down with this deck TONIGHT and goldfish 10 games. I would be shocked if 5 of them gave me a turn one win. If I get 7 out of 10 turn one wins Ill never pick up any deck but this one. Ever. Im not trying to knock you emidln, your a good deck builder, but Im very very skeptical that your deck gets a 70% win ratio turn one on the play.
Im surprised you didnt mention your sideboard at all when mentioning the plan to tackle hate cards. Your switch into mono black turbo beat down is interesting. When do you switch the the man plan?
Id also suggest you add Golden Grahams to your list of combo discussion. Its efficient, and comes very equiped with answers to hate. Along with Solidarity and Iggy Pop it's the only other deck to make any real standings in the world of legacy. How can we let that go?
Now playing real formats.
Actually, that isn't really a lie. It has amazing goldfishes, and can win turn one A LOT. I've already tested it quite a bit, and it is definitely one of the fastest decks in the format (although I don't know if the percentage is 100% true, but it can't be too far off).
SI has so much accel that it's hard not to get a turn 1 IGG or Draw4 (or even Infernal into Charbelcher), and has very consistent hands.
I can certainly see the speed that the deck offers in rituals, draw 4's, and mono colored action packed plan. Yet part of me knows the deck will fumble on a crucial draw 4, leaving you with a large pointless storm count and shitty hand. I see the deck fizzling on alot of turn one attempts. What kind of hand does the deck try to go off turn one with? How much free mana? How much card draw?
ON IGGY
Iggy does have not only the aforementioned 'un-fizzling' combo but I've found it extremely flexible when facing absurd hand destruction. Mystical Tutor into Iggy is not a joke, it is appauling. I found myself at 1-5 life with almost nothing in my grip where Mystical Tutor was the craziest mise in the world. No matter how many alternative wins, counterspell baiters, ld and graveyard nihilistic you are, hand disruption is combo's biggest issue. Iggy handles the discard issue unchallenged while the rest of the decks put their tail between their legs.
@Deathwing
Meditates in Iggy's board is a really good idea, I think Ill try that out.
ON PILLAR
Even though most of you are writing this off dont forget Pillar is never the only card in play. If it is your in good shape, but the decks that play it also contain a very fast clock and usually some backup disruption in the form of CotV or REB.
Now playing real formats.
The fork plan means you have the combo which is pretty Irrelvant at that point, no? And yes, playing more IGG's makes you more graveyard reliant because in order to play them you'll be using intuition. What does TES not lose to? Graveyard hate. If you make those changes its a hybrid of Iggy Pop and TES which in my opinion seems weaker than one or the other. Since the format is full of graveyard hate I'll pass.
I'm glad to see you're reconsidering Xantid Swarm, you won't regret it.
I for one don't want to be even the slightest bit reliant on my graveyard, because when you use the graveyard more than need be you'll see hate for it and when you actually NEED your graveyard you'll be cut off(By hate). When it comes down to it in my opinion is comes down to how comfortable are you losing to graveyard hate. I for one love Mage and won't cut it until a better card comes out.
On Draw 4's they are generally unreliable when it comes to TES, because at all times TES want's specific cards and draw 4's hardly deliver.
EDIT:: To support Intuiton you would have to add more Ill-Gotten Gains which takes up slots in the deck. Intuition makes you rely on Ill-Gotten Gains and when you rely on Ill-Gotten Gains to make Intuition good. You are relying on your graveyard in a format full of grave hate for Threshold. This just isn't logical to me.
I dont know if you all have adressed this or not...But what does discard do for combo? I'm talking Duess/Therepy/hymn and maybe pox??
All of those would seem to pose a problem for any combo player...
has anyone mentioned or thought of Doomsday as a fast combo option? There are some very efficient stacks out there that haven't quite made it to the mainstream, but seem to be primed to make some sort of dent in the metagame.
if it hasn't already been discussed, discard kills combo, but there are solutions. Combo decks that run black can cast a discard spell first, thus beating the other player to it. Blue decks run Daze or Force for the early counter. And since discard runs at sorcery speed, White can get in Orim's Chant or Abeyance. And most competitive combo decks can be tuned to go off turn two or even turn one (such as Doomsday) with a good hand, so the last option is a simple race: go off before disruption hits.
Brainfreeze > Doomsday
I've yet to see a successfull rehabilitation of that deck.
I adressed the discard issue as well. Mystical Tutor -> Ill-Gotten Gains
Now playing real formats.
do you mean to say that solidarity has an auto win against any current doomsday build? i've been working on that and trying to get a doomsday deck that can actually run with the top tier. it's such an alluring card, it basically reads "cast this, you win (provided you don't get countered during or discarded before, sorry)"
it's fragile, yes, but i think that i may have found a good working balance between discard, counters, and pure speed to make it viable, i just need to conduct thorough testing against the full suit of good decks, which i've yet to do, due primarly to the lack of legacy activity in my area (DC). perhaps i should create a doomsday thread for deck discussion. is it worth it, or is doomsday doomed to be a crazy casual card?
My gut is to say that Doomsday will have a bad game against all three of the best decks in the format. Against Threshold, they can hold back a single counterspell, probably even a Daze, and wreck you. A resolved Meddling Mage is pretty much game. Against Solidarity, Doomsday + Brain Freeze = enough storm to deck you. Force is equally bad here. Goblins is interesting, because you'll often have to pass after casting Doomsday, at which point they win, because you've just put yourself at 5 life.
If you can't beat any of the top 3 decks, where do you go from there?
Doomsday (as a deck) isn't basically any better than Buried Alive for Kiki-Karmic-Hussar. You get to combo without creatures but you pay a ton of life and are more vulnerable to other kinds of disruption, like Mage and Freeze and counters. And you're still basically reliant on finding and resolving a 4-of, which is one of the biggest problems with, say, Survival.
Any setup you an do with Doomsday (4 doom and 4 mystical, or 3/4 and 4 burning wish) you could do with Buried Alive, and BA even can use Intuition for #5-8, etc.
What do people think as Doomsday as a Burning Wish target? I saw it in Roopey's SB and thought it was awfully techy.
What do you actually DO with it though? Crack a Chromatic to get at the goods?
Exactly what does the Doomsday decks look like, anyway? It's not something I'm familiar with, and I always love seeing a new combo deck.
It really seems like you'd better win the turn you cast Doomsday though. Going to half your life and having to sit around for a full turn on a library of 5 cards is probably the lose.
Essentially, how do you get to the goods you get with Doomsday and still have the mana to use them?
TEAM DRAGONFORCIA-
Ghost ridin' the whip like we invented that shit.
TEAM UNICORN
We're going for number four!
here is a cut and paste from a doomsday discussion thread written by "sobek" a few months ago on the wizards forum:
Ive worked on Doomsday combo for a long, long time and I have a pretty much optimal list.
Legacy Doomsday Combo
Mana: 18
4x Dark Ritual
4x Cabal Ritual
4x Lotus Petal
4x Lion’s Eye Diamond
2x Chromatic Sphere
Tutors: 8
4x Lim-Dul’s Vault
4x Mystical Tutor
Combo: 9
4x Doomsday
2x Conjurer’s Bauble
1x Predict
1x Brain Freeze
1x Second Sunrise
Disruption: 7
3x Unmask
4x Duress
Land: 18
5x Island
5x Swamp
4x Underground Sea
4x Polluted Delta
Sideboard:15
1x Breakthrough
1x Shallow Grave
1x Sutured Ghoul
2x Krosan Cloudscraper
4x Chain of Vapor
6x?
The Sideboard has an alternate Doomsday stack that dosn't die to Pithing Needle, but does die to STP. Chain of Vapor makes Meddling Mage go away. The rest is up to you for your meta.
Dark Rit and Cabal Rit make it so you always have the correct ammount of mana to cast Doomsday. LED makes first and second turn wins possible. Lim-Dul's Vault sets up crazy turns, and Mystical Tutor finds you Doomsday/Rituals.
Chormatic Sphere fixes your colors and lets you win the turn you Doomsday if you have the mana and its in play. Conjurers Bauble does the same.
Unmask and Duress are your disruption and are generally good enough as you don't have to worry about many cards other than Pithing Needle/Meddling Mage and obviously FoW and kin.
You can generally Doomsday w/disruption turns 2-4 most of the time. The majority of your wins will be turn 3-4. If you are really concerned about giving them an upkeep before they are die, you can always run Tendrils instead of Brain Freeze, but it does make the total mana to combo out go from 2U to 2UB which can mean the difference between going off turn 2-3 and turn 3-4.
Turn 1 Doomsdays arn't unheard of with this deck and can happen fairly often, and even with Disruption. Likewise, turn 1 wins are more difficult, but can happen. Turn 2 wins happen a surprising ammount of the time.
I am a follower of IGG because I believe that this deck has tons of potential in Legacy.... Just wondering (don't know if you guys cover this already... ) what about Chalice of the void and Trinisphere? How do these combo decks deal with it?
Iggy bounces them with Echoing Truth if it can. And if you're me and playing against Iggy, it ALWAYS gets the Echoing Truth when it needs it. Always. Every freaking time. Stupid Michael Bom..B...Wossname.
Solidarity Cunning Wishes for Rebuild (Or COV/Echoing if Rebuild isn't run) or just goes off around them if there's only one and not both.
Belcher tries to go off before they're on the board or plays Oxidize/Shattering Spree.
Gamekeeper Salvagers laughs madly when people stupidly Chalice for 1, Living Wishes for Orzhov Guildmage, plays it, then Salvager/LED's into an infinite life draining, and advances to the finals of their local tournament (Not that I know anything about this.) It Living Wishes for Viridian Shaman/Sex Monkey to kill a Trinisphere or a Chalice at 0, and boards in Deeds. (You are running Pernicious Deed and Orim's Chant in your sideboard, aren't you? Good boy.)
Most of the others just die.
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