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Thread: [Article] The Road To Columbus #1: The Goblins Versus Threshold Matchup

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    [Article] The Road To Columbus #1: The Goblins Versus Threshold Matchup

    An article by Doug Linn. I just think any Threshold list running 4 main deck Meddling Mages is going to be in trouble against Goblins, but maybe that's just me.

    Though I don't think I would board out Gempalm Incinerator against Threshold as the author suggested. Also Threshold does have the option to run a sweeper in the form of Tivadar's Crusade which I think the author forgot to mention.

    The article

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    Re: [Article] The Road To Columbus #1: The Goblins Versus Threshold Matchup

    Quote Originally Posted by AnwarA101 View Post
    I just think any Threshold list running 4 main deck Meddling Mages is going to be in trouble against Goblins, but maybe that's just me.
    I don't think so, many times I have named Ringleader and it has left the dead in the water.

    Quote Originally Posted by AnwarA101 View Post
    Also Threshold does have the option to run a sweeper in the form of Tivadar's Crusade which I think the author forgot to mention.
    He does state it does not have any board sweepers, but later says the following: "but sometimes focused tech like Tivadar's Crusade"
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    Re: [Article] The Road To Columbus #1: The Goblins Versus Threshold Matchup

    Quote Originally Posted by kabal View Post
    I don't think so, many times I have named Ringleader and it has left the dead in the water."

    If they don't have an active Vial or Lackey, the game is probably already won.

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    Re: [Article] The Road To Columbus #1: The Goblins Versus Threshold Matchup

    I'm usually extra nice to article writers as I think it is extremely difficult to write articles and faily easy to blast them. That being said, I have a few complaints. I found the article a little too elementary.

    He seems to take the lists he posted as gospel and hardly discusses variations. I mean, isn't R/w Goblins more or at least as popular than Mono red at this point? Isn't this why Thresh decks don't board in Worship any more? No mention of StP being a bomb FOR Goblins? No mention of the many SB Goblins mono red can board in to beat Worship.

    Still, my biggest problem was the lack of discussion about Goblins mana denial strategy. I've always found this to be the key for or against Goblins, and the key to shutting down Thresh's board cards and he barely mentions it. No discussion on when to use port/waste and when to just go aggro. No discussion on the proper use of fetches by threshold (when to go basic and when not to). No discussion on shutting out Crusade and Worship through Port...

    Basically I thought it was a conscise, well written article for non Legacy players, but could have used some more detail.

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    Re: [Article] The Road To Columbus #1: The Goblins Versus Threshold Matchup

    Since I played the matchup this weekend in a very close game 2, I'm not sure whether the Threshold player should counter Goblin Matron. Countering it means the Goblin player doesn't have the 1/1 in play and doesn't have the card in hand. I think I usually don't counter matron but I think I should. It seems there should be no reason to allow them to put a 1/1 in play that makes Incinerator that much better. Any thoughts on this ? I agree that more in-depth analysis of the matchup would have helped. But I'm not complaining about Legacy articles. At least people are thinking about the format.

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    Re: [Article] The Road To Columbus #1: The Goblins Versus Threshold Matchup

    The main reason to counter Matron would be to either:

    1) Prevent them from getting an Incinerator to their hand (i.e. uncounterable cycling)

    2) If you're in full-on aggro-control mode and it's better to pitch two cards to force damage through and not have another chump blocker in the way to win a turn or two quicker.

    There are other reasons that are less likely to come up. For instance they play a Matron and have a vial for 4 or 5 on the table. I'd counter that guy for sure.

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    Re: [Article] The Road To Columbus #1: The Goblins Versus Threshold Matchup

    The list that Chris used to bash people is very close to what we have (no Tinkerers main, 4 Commanders, 24 land). Adam's list is also pretty close to our gauntlet list.

    His analysis is actually really spot on. We abandoned Threshold very quickly because even with cards like Tividar's Crusade a competent Goblins player is well ahead in the matchup. We tried Red threshold, but that deck can't beat a combo deck to save it's life and the matchup versus Goblins never got so good to play it anyways.

    Do you counter Demonic Tutor? I personally do a lot especially if they have outs that just bury me. Incinerator crushes every non-Mongoose guy in your deck, and if Vial's online then none of your counterspells work anyways unless they tap for mana for some reason.

    Here's actually what he didn't say about the matchup (the replies are being addressed in the order that I read them, which is inverted):

    R/w Goblins is probably not worth the time. White doesn't give you anything you particularly care about - Plow is both counterable and stopped by Chalice 1, the best bomb in the matchup, Disenchant or Kami of Ancient Law has easily replaced analogues in Green or can be eschewed entirely in the case of monored, Armageddon never resolves or is not required to win the game, and any other options probably aren't as good anyways.

    With that out of the way, even if you think that Worship won't live (if I were a thinking Threshold player trying to deal with a very problematic matchup, I'd be holding my hard counters for specifically Disenchants or Kamis and nothing else if I thought I could stick a Worship) you still should be boarding some of them or even maindecking a pair since that will win every game 1 with a Mongoose that I can think of.

    I'm pretty sure that the mana denial is pretty obvious since Threshold has a minimum number of basic lands. Fetchlands only hold up for so long until you actually have to play a spell, and then the world comes crashing down. If it came between Porting a land and playing a spell, you have to take into account the board position. Early, you just want to be drawing into more lands so you'll probably Time Walk by Porting one of their few lands during their upkeep. In the midgame, you're trying to cut them off of GW2 for Enforcer or WW1 postboard for Tividar's Crusade. Vial is pretty key here since at that point you just Port them every turn. Wastelands act both to cut them off of a color and to put extra pressure on their Werebears to not be able to block if they want to not get avalanched on the board.

    Also, even without Vial or Lackey the matchup is still very much in Goblins' favor. Vial or Lackey just make it easier to actually accomplish the win. Threshold's game is in general not that powerful and they often get overrun. I'd definitely be happy just running Siege-Gang Commanders and Ringleaders and proxies for either (Matrons mostly) at Threshold on turn 6.

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    Re: [Article] The Road To Columbus #1: The Goblins Versus Threshold Matchup

    Quote Originally Posted by Bardo View Post
    The main reason to counter Matron would be to either:

    1) Prevent them from getting an Incinerator to their hand (i.e. uncounterable cycling)

    2) If you're in full-on aggro-control mode and it's better to pitch two cards to force damage through and not have another chump blocker in the way to win a turn or two quicker.

    There are other reasons that are less likely to come up. For instance they play a Matron and have a vial for 4 or 5 on the table. I'd counter that guy for sure.
    When is the creature they're getting with Matron not going to be worth countering? Logically isn't countering a Matron the same as countering whatever card(minus Vial) you're most afraid of, plus eliminating Gempalm and Piledriver synergy, as well as a chump blocker?

    R/w Goblins is probably not worth the time. White doesn't give you anything you particularly care about - Plow is both counterable and stopped by Chalice 1, the best bomb in the matchup,
    I doubt that. The ability to directly answer Were-Bear and Enforcer in the mid-game seems highly relevant, and StP is relatively difficult to counter, since it costs 1 in a deck full of must-counters.
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    Re: [Article] The Road To Columbus #1: The Goblins Versus Threshold Matchup

    When is the creature they're getting with Matron not going to be worth countering? Logically isn't countering a Matron the same as countering whatever card(minus Vial) you're most afraid of, plus eliminating Gempalm and Piledriver synergy, as well as a chump blocker?
    I was responding to Anwar's comment. Under different circumstances, you'd let tutor resolve and counter what they tutor for to make them waste their mana for a turn and gain a slight tempo boost. But Goblins has a few uncounterable effects (Incinerator, Vial), short of Stifle, so that's got to be considered.
    Last edited by Bardo; 11-27-2006 at 09:54 PM.

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    Re: [Article] The Road To Columbus #1: The Goblins Versus Threshold Matchup

    I answer both of them with an uncounterable Gempalm Incinerator. It also falls prey to the one card I particularly want to land, and that's Chalice of the Void at 1 counter.

    If you think that Matron's getting a Gempalm Incinerator that would be relevant, then you have to counter that card. Incinerator is awesome in that matchup especially in the first game when you can just commit everything to the board when you draw it.

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    Re: [Article] The Road To Columbus #1: The Goblins Versus Threshold Matchup

    Concentrate on early creatures and then reaching Threshold
    This advice is my biggest complaint with the article. Werebear should almost never come down early and Mongoose should only do so either to answer Lackey or when you run out of other things to play. Furthermore, it implies that reaching Threshold is a major part of your strategy, which is generally not the case. It's important to keep track of your graveyard, but using resources to acheive Threshold rather than to efficiently answer the opponent's threats is usually going to be a mistake.
    Quote Originally Posted by kirdape3 View Post
    We tried Red threshold, but that deck can't beat a combo deck to save it's life
    I believe any good Gro list with a reasonably experienced player should win a clear majority of its games against the commonly played combo decks in this format. What sort of build did you try, what sort of attempt was it, and against what combo decks did it lose?
    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. nitewolf "Professor" 9, Ph.D. View Post
    I personally like spell snare against 2 cc spells, but it really isn't good against spells that aren't 2 cc. With engineered explosives, it is a good card to have against non-land permanents with converted mana cost equal to what you set the explosives to, but it doesn't hit those that have differing cc. Plus, engineered explosives has sunburst.

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    Re: [Article] The Road To Columbus #1: The Goblins Versus Threshold Matchup

    Quote Originally Posted by Mad Zur View Post
    Furthermore, it implies that reaching Threshold is a major part of your strategy, which is generally not the case. It's important to keep track of your graveyard, but using resources to acheive Threshold rather than to efficiently answer the opponent's threats is usually going to be a mistake.
    Actually, that's one thing he is right about. You're not actually spending any resources to reach threshold anyway; it's a side effect of playing with more synergistic cards. Early threshold gives the deck the option to play an very aggressive aggro game, which is obviously relevant.

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    Re: [Article] The Road To Columbus #1: The Goblins Versus Threshold Matchup

    Quote Originally Posted by Bardo View Post
    I was responding to Anwar's comment. Under different circumstances, you'd let counter resolve and counter what they tutor for to make them waste their mana for a turn and gain a slight tempo boost. But Goblins has a few uncounterable effects (Incinerator, Vial), short of Stifle, so that's got to be considered.
    I'm just wondering if always countering Matron is the best idea since it leaves them without a chump blocker and without the card in their hand. But I can see where having them spend another turn on casting the following creature and countering that could be useful, but then again they get to block for a turn with Matron if they are playing defense to begin with. I guess I'm wondering if its usually best to counter Matron? I'm beginning to think so.

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    Re: [Article] The Road To Columbus #1: The Goblins Versus Threshold Matchup

    Quote Originally Posted by AnwarA101 View Post
    I'm just wondering if always countering Matron is the best idea since it leaves them without a chump blocker and without the card in their hand. But I can see where having them spend another turn on casting the following creature and countering that could be useful, but then again they get to block for a turn with Matron if they are playing defense to begin with. I guess I'm wondering if its usually best to counter Matron? I'm beginning to think so.
    Without being evasive, it depends. And what it depends on is a number of things: number of Goblins in play (i.e. Incinerator), who's the beatdown (at the moment), active Vial or no, cards in hand, how quickly you plan on winning, what's preventing you from winning; and generally, the board state and life totals, etc.

    But yeah, your primary reason for not countering Matron would be for them to spend some other wad of mana that you'd counter instead. If you were reasonably sure they were going for SGC, for instance, I would often be happy for my opponent to spend eight mana on a 1/1. Depending on the game state, cards in hand, etc., it might be worth it to let Matron resolve. It's a calculated risk, but if you play it right, that's like two free turns right there.

    Like I said, it depends. ;)

    Edit - But just the threat of Incinerator alone, with a critical mass of Goblins, is good reason to counter Matron.

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    Re: [Article] The Road To Columbus #1: The Goblins Versus Threshold Matchup

    Quote Originally Posted by Bardo View Post
    Without being evasive, it depends. And what it depends on is a number of things: number of Goblins in play (i.e. Incinerator), who's the beatdown (at the moment), active Vial or no, cards in hand, how quickly you plan on winning, what's preventing you from winning; and generally, the board state and life totals, etc.

    But yeah, your primary reason for not countering Matron would be for them to spend some other wad of mana that you'd counter instead. If you were reasonably sure they were going for SGC, for instance, I would often be happy for my opponent to spend eight mana on a 1/1. Depending on the game state, cards in hand, etc., it might be worth it to let Matron resolve. It's a calculated risk, but if you play it right, that's like two free turns right there.

    Like I said, it depends. ;)

    Yeah I agree that it depends on the situation, but Matron seems like a fine counter target. I found that having a less cluttered board is to the advantage of Thresh player because with less creatures on their side of the table your board position is better with just a couple of creatures. Besides with less creatures they can hardly take advantage of double blocking. But this might another case for playing Stifle in the board. The fact that Stifle can be used against both Goblins and combo decks seems to make the card fairly versatile in Legacy.

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    Re: [Article] The Road To Columbus #1: The Goblins Versus Threshold Matchup

    Quote Originally Posted by kirdape3 View Post
    We tried Red threshold, but that deck can't beat a combo deck to save it's life and the matchup versus Goblins never got so good to play it anyways.
    As an advocate of UGR Thresh, I would be inclined to disagree. However, a player of your caliber usually knows what they're saying. Could you go more in-depth about your testing results?

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    Re: [Article] The Road To Columbus #1: The Goblins Versus Threshold Matchup

    Oh snap, this thread on my article is blowin' up! Thanks for all the constructive feedback, guys.

    I was unimpressed with UGR Threshold since the red cards only let you 1-for-1 anyway, outside of F/I hitting two Goblins. 1-for-1ing isn't how Threshold wins the game. White gives Mage and the incredible Grunt off the board so I'm inclined to lean towards it instead.

    Matron is like the best tutor in the entire format, so you're correct in talking about whether to counter it. It's sooooooo good.

    Mad Zur, I respectfully disagree. In my article, I talk about how Threshold needs to leverage its early creature advantages as best as possible. Getting Geese and Bears big early means that you have a lot of options. Personally I'd rather be reaching Threshold than sitting on Counterspells.

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    Re: [Article] The Road To Columbus #1: The Goblins Versus Threshold Matchup

    Quote Originally Posted by AnwarA101 View Post
    Yeah I agree that it depends on the situation, but Matron seems like a fine counter target.
    Most of the points made on here about countering/not countering Matron seem valid, but we seem to have missed a great reason for not countering. Say they go get a Ringleader and I counter the Ringleader as opposed to the Matron. Now they are playing with one less Ringleader. This is pretty huge, especially with something like SGC, which they are almost always not running as a 4 of.

    Still, I would say that thanks to things like Incinerator and Vial, countering Matron is a good idea roughly 90% of the time.

    Quote Originally Posted by kirdape3 View Post
    R/w Goblins is probably not worth the time. White doesn't give you anything you particularly care about - Plow is both counterable and stopped by Chalice 1, the best bomb in the matchup, Disenchant or Kami of Ancient Law has easily replaced analogues in Green or can be eschewed entirely in the case of monored, Armageddon never resolves or is not required to win the game, and any other options probably aren't as good anyways.
    I'm not sure if you're dismissing R/w all together, or just vs. Thresh, but either way I'd have to disagree (Tournement results would disagree as well). The anti-synergy between Chalice and swords is a complete non factor. I've tested Chalice against Thresh a ton, and resolving Chalice against Thresh is game over at least 80% of the time, so who really cares that you have 4 more dead cards. The fact Swords can cheaply swat a Mystic Enforcer out of the sky, and clear the ground of Werebears is much more relevant. Counting on Incinerator to take care of both of them is just plain dumb due your Goblin count on the board (which is often not 4, let alone 6), and the fact that Goblins is only allowed to run 4 Geplams.





    I haven't tested Worship out of the board enough to fully comment on it, but I really don't like the idea. Here are some problems:

    1) It's 4cc and they are running between 4 and 8 mana denial lands so that means I'm probably going to have to draw between 5 and 7 of my 17 land. A large number of those lands are fetches which are removing 2 of my land from the deck. In other words, having the mana to cast Worship before I'm dead is far from guaranteed.

    2) Holding back counters in anticipation of resolving a Worship is a nice plan, but a competant Goblins player with a resonable draw is going to make you use those counters or die, so their answers will often resolve.

    3) You have to have a Mongoose alive in order for Worship to really matter. Thresh only runs four Mongoose, so it's not even a lock that they draw one, but even if they do, it can't have died in some desperate blocking situation.

    4) Krosan Grip.

    5) Mono red can actually Vial in Matron to go get uncounterable answers to Worship such as Skirk Fire Marshall or Goblin Assasin. Best part about these is that they take up one sideboard slot.


    I prefer to bring in cheap, versitile, and easy to cast cards like Needle, Stifle, and BEB. The last 2 are extra nice because they add to your Threshold count.

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    Re: [Article] The Road To Columbus #1: The Goblins Versus Threshold Matchup

    Quote Originally Posted by hi-val View Post

    I was unimpressed with UGR Threshold since the red cards only let you 1-for-1 anyway, outside of F/I hitting two Goblins. 1-for-1ing isn't how Threshold wins the game. White gives Mage and the incredible Grunt off the board so I'm inclined to lean towards it instead.

    Mad Zur, I respectfully disagree. In my article, I talk about how Threshold needs to leverage its early creature advantages as best as possible. Getting Geese and Bears big early means that you have a lot of options. Personally I'd rather be reaching Threshold than sitting on Counterspells.
    I will disagree with this comment. There are many successful variants, but those successful variants in America dont run Mental Note. I honestly dont think Mental Note belongs in Red Thresh, just White, as White exploits it's power much better. A look reference to look at are Mad Zur's list and Wastedlife's list. Those two are very good players, with very good decklists, and they stomp the hell out of Goblins. Wastedlife's list is so good Pre-Board he'll probably have a couple Burn Spells to aim at the head to seal the game. Mad Zur's build takes a firm control over the game, and makes it swing to his favor, and make's it even better Games 2 and 3. But if you are to run Mad Zur's build, you are better off running White instead of Red unless Goblins is everywhere in your meta.
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    Re: [Article] The Road To Columbus #1: The Goblins Versus Threshold Matchup

    Quote Originally Posted by kirdape3 View Post
    I answer both of them with an uncounterable Gempalm Incinerator. It also falls prey to the one card I particularly want to land, and that's Chalice of the Void at 1 counter.
    A)That's assuming you have 4-6 golbins on the board, which may be an unwise assumption, especially in the mid-game.

    B)There's nothing wrong with redundancy.

    C)See Phantom's point.
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