Anti~American4621-- Truth be told, I didn't feel like typing up decklists for the article and so I linked to the most recent article on SCG with Thresh, which went up last Monday. In my gauntlet Thresh decks, there's no Meddling Mages and there's Predict/Portent instead of Mental Note; I'm in agreement about MN being kinda bad.
Red isn't the answer because Red doesn't answer Siege-Gang Commander and Ringleader, and those are the threats that just up and bury Threshold. They let you get upwards of 4 cards out of each of them and the fact is that Threshold just has stone cold nothing to really match that or stop it.
While the 1-for-1 argument is true for game 1, I still have taken my fair share of game 1 from Goblins. However, the situation after I sideboarded in Pyroclasm and Stifle is strongly in UGR's favor.Originally Posted by hi-val
I don't think Mage is needed in UGW and actually makes the matchup against Goblins worse.
Did you take a look at Pyroclasm, FTK, REB and Ancient Grudge for the board? What white options do you think are so important that it's better to run over Red?
I'm dismissing R/w altogether. If I'm splashing a color, it's green - because the artifact/enchantment answers are better. I never particularly care about their creatures because I have tutorable removal rather than removal that I can't even draw half the time since I shipped it to the bottom of my deck. And if they successfully kill my creatures, I have a lot more where those came from. 32 creatures and all.
The consensus is actually evenly split according to recent tournament results. It's either monored (those are the decks that actually win the mirror) or R/w (splashing for mainly Disenchant actually, which seems weird since green's answers are either evenly parallel in Naturalize or strictly better in Tranquil Domain/Tin Street Hooligan). Typically, monored Goblins actually wins tournaments whereas R/w gets into the top 8 of said tournament but dies horribly to the monored deck.
As for Threshold in general, I'm pretty sure that the only reason to play the deck is to break up degenerate combo decks. Red Threshold isn't good against those same decks - nice Lightning Bolt you got there, yer dead. Every bit of testing I've ever done, against competent or better than me players (Bomholt mostly) with their combo decks obliterates me with Red Threshold because my anti-creature elements outweigh my anti-combo elements. The clock just simply isn't that fast, and he can fire off half of his combo against red deck and reload it. Meddling Mage is the biggest beating ever for combo decks because now they not only have to fight your permission but they have to get around this guy to actually win the game. Good luck there.
Personal confession time. While I think White Thresh has a respectable game against many decks (due to its free counters, StP, lots of quick card draw and big monsters), this is mainly the reason I play the deck: to pwn combo.
In conclusion, yeah.
Well, if you take a look at the last 6 big Legacy Tourneys (back to D4Ds III ) here's what we have:
Top 8's
R/w: 7 (3 Wins)
Mono R: 2 (1 win)
R/g: 3 (0 wins)
...so I'm not sure if you're talking about smaller or local tournements or what. I know that since then Green has gotten a major bump with the addition of Krosan Grip and I won't deny it's power, but you shouldn't deny Plows power either (especially in the face of such overwhelming data). I think it helps vs. Thresh, but maybe you don't need it. Where I know it helps a ton is vs. Aggro, specifically fast Stompy decks.
Angel Stompy and Faerie Stompy (and I guess Reanimator) have the ability to churn out very large and evasive creatures, or pro red creatures quickly, and throw equipment on them soon after. This is huge trouble for Goblins, and often times no amount of Incinerators can save you. I can speak to Swords' power in particular in the Faerie Stompy matchup as I have tested it into oblivion.
As to Stp not being tutorable, this would be similar to running Tin Street over Krosan Grip simply because Grip isn't tutorable and gets shipped to the bottom by Ringleader. So why does any green splash run Grip/Naturalize? Because it's often a better card than Tin Street. Just as StP is often a better card than Incinerator (like say, turn 2 when they've churned out something nasty).
I mean, why only splash for one of them in the main? That seems like a prayer. Yay, I win teh prize because my opponent didn't reanimate a Simic Sky Swallower!
Our version splashes Green for Tranquil Domain and Tin Street Hooligan - but both of those are concentrated in the sideboard.
EDIT: Most of the builds that I looked at, the splash was only one of two cards in the maindeck - Disenchant or Swords to Plowshares. No version ran both as more than a 1-of each (which is indeed a hope without a way to go and get it) and most only splashed for Disenchant. Plow many times was not used as a four-of in these lists -- many of which appear to be more cute and winning off the strength of the Goblins maindeck rather than off the sideboard cards Disenchant, Swords to Plowshares, and Armageddon.
You're just proving the beauty of Stp here. R/w forces them to reanimate a SSS. Now I have 4 turns in which to deal 13 damage. I'll take that race over R/g or mono where they will fetch Akroma, and the game will be over. The best part here is when they don't realize you're splashing white and grab a so called Angel of Wrath.
And who cares how much they were splashing for? The point is that they were spashing. They wouldn't just splash white for no reason and rely on the power of Goblins to win it for them. That's the reason to play mono red. It gives you a more stable mana base and more disruption. They clearly had a reason for splashing, even if it was a small amount of cards.
For reference here's the lists I was talking about and what they were spashing for:
Calosso Fuentes 2nd @ Duel for Duals IV
Main - 3 Swords To Plowshares
Side - 3 Disenchant
Jim Fleckenstein 7th @ Duel for Duals IV
Main - 1 Swords To Plowshares, 1 Disenchant (I'm as confused as you about the one disenchant)
Side - 2 Disenchant, 2 Swords To Plowshares
Jonathan Rusiecki 1st @ Duel for Duals IV
Main - 3 Swords To Plowshares
Side - 3 Disenchant
George Whittaker 7th @ Duel for Duals IV
Main - 3 Disenchant
Side - 3 StP
Jeff Folinus 1st @ The Mana Leak Open
Main - Nothing
Side - 3 Disenchant, 1 Swords To Plowshares, 3 Armageddon
Jacob Baughman 1st @ Duel for Duals III
Main - 3 Disenchant
Side - 4 StP, 2 Leave No Trace
Albert Davis 7th @ Duel for Duals III
Main - 3 StP
Side - 4 Disenchant, 1 Swords To Plowshares, 3 Armageddon
So they all were splashing at least 6 White cards and as many as 11 and they ALL were splashing Stp. Now seeing as these lists pretty much outperformed both the green splash and mono red on the biggest Legacy stages available over and over, and StP is about the only thing seperating from their competition (green can run disenchant and only 2 of the lists ran geddon) can you really argue that Swords has no place in Goblins?
I would hope that at least one Tin street was in the main, but either way you're eating up a ton of board space for artifact/enchantment hate. That's going to eat into your combo/Thresh hate and maybe your aggro hate (note that nearly all of the T8 R/g lists have run Pyrokenisis as a 4 of).
I do believe that the biggest Legacy stage was the pair of Grand Prix events. None of the others are as relevant as those, because people won't screw their decks up with cards like Plow and Disenchant in the maindeck at a Grand Prix and reliably expect to make Top 8. I mean, if people want to screw their decks up on lower levels then go ahead, but I cannot recommend it. Chris' build is about the best one that I've seen, simply because it doesn't assume that you'll ever see answers that aren't Goblins. 5+ copies of admittedly weaker cards are probably liable to be stronger than 3 copies of better ones.
Remember kids, 32-33 Goblins, 4 Vials, 23-24 lands!
I didn't use the GPs as examples since they were so long ago (and splashing Goblins had yet to really be perfected), and often the overseas meta is a mess, but since you brought them up R/w placed a deck in each T8! That's more than mono red and R/g comined! (I can't see the lists for some reason, but whatever)
Edit: I just realized how far off topic we are getting and we should probably take our discusiion over to the Goblins board and allow people to talk about the article here.
Zur is correct here. Getting to threshold will necessarily be a result of following the correct gameplan, which is to focus on stopping Goblins' developement. Doug actually highlighted the true priorities of a Gro player against Goblins:
1) Answer Lackeys and Vials.
2) Counter Ringleaders and Siege-Gangs.
Neither of those goals is accomplished by racing to threshold or by playing early creatures (aside from answering a Lackey with a Mongoose). Both goals are accomplished by chaining cantrips into Swords', Pithing Needles, and countermagic.
Threshold will obviously result from successfully maintaining the cantrip chain, and playing the answer cards. However, as Zur said, it is very rarely optimal to utilizes resources to attain threshold instead of focusing on the two real priorities - this means that yes, you should absolutely sit back on countermagic if that will let you answer the Ringleader coming down next turn, even if it delays threshold.
Once you reach the midgame, Goblins will start running low on actual threats, and will try to sneak in damage with random awful creatures. It is at this point that Gro can put down a monster or two and take over. It is pretty much necessary for Goblins to draw more Ringleaders, Matrons, and Siege-Gangs than Gro finds counterspells, which is a lot harder than it sounds since Gro has a draw engine.
How is chaining cantrips into answers not trying to get threshold? If you play with good cantrips then you can just do both.
Yes, as I said, you will generally reach threshold as a matter of course.
However, reaching threshold is not a priority. If a Ringleader resolves because you spent the prior turn tapping out to gain threshold, you made a mistake.
Have you seen how many ways Goblins can net card advantage? And nearly every card in the deck is a threat to Threshold.Once you reach the midgame, Goblins will start running low on actual threats, ...
If Goblins is in a position to safely attack, Threshold is usually in a lost position.... and will try to sneak in damage with random awful creatures.
If you think Threshold has a positive matchup against Goblins, I'd like to test with you. All my testing says Goblins crushes Threshold.It is at this point that Gro can put down a monster or two and take over. It is pretty much necessary for Goblins to draw more Ringleaders, Matrons, and Siege-Gangs than Gro finds counterspells, which is a lot harder than it sounds since Gro has a draw engine.
Your testing is equally incorrect. Goblins vs. UGw threshold is about as close as it gets to 50/50 in Legacy.
I completely agree with this statement. Excepet for a few occasions were I keep bad hands. Generally I grind out the gro player by baiting counterspells and then when most of there resources are depleted I drop a siege-gang or a ringleader and the game ends.
Goddamn, I'm so amazing. Jim's a good friend of mine and time was running low. Neither of us liked the various one-of goblins that he had access to, so I told him to free up space by running one Swords and one Disenchant main. Damn, I'm cool. Anyway, interesting article just a couple of points I disagreed with but those are unimportant. Looking forward to how 'surprising' the matchup of Solidarity vs. Goblins is. Also, if I think you're wrong, be prepared to hear from me. Angrily at that. Especially considering you can just message me on the source if you had questions. Anyway, all vanity aside (although, I do expect you to reference my list in your article), definitely looking forward to your article.
For the foreseeable future, expect to see less of me. I've lost my internet connection, and so I'll only be able to get on by siphoning free Wi-Fi from the surrounding areas. Which isn't always consistent.
Plus, the guy that I used to leech off of has now instituted password protection. This means that I effectively do not have internet at home. :(
I'm willing to back up my statement with some test games. PM me and we can set up a time on MWS.Your testing is equally incorrect. Goblins vs. UGw threshold is about as close as it gets to 50/50 in Legacy.
I'm pretty sure Goblins doesn't crush Threshold. No way. I've won too many games from the Threshold side of the match to know that it just isn't true. This might be true if you are playing main deck Meddling Mage or not running Pithing Needle in the main, but I think both of those decisions are suboptimal in current Legacy. If I had a choice I would rather be the Threshold player in the matchup .
Translation; I get paired against bad players. Out of curiosity, what are they countering that's not SGC, Matron, or Ringleader?
Early one morning while making the round,
I took a shot of cocaine and I shot my woman down;
I went right home and I went to bed,
I stuck that lovin' .44 beneath my head.
The matchup hinges a lot on the configuration of both Goblins and Thresh.
I'm running Machinus' list right now, and I found that it has a positive matchup against UGW Thresh. The less Needles and the more Mages Thresh runs, the worse its Goblin-matchup gets. Waste&Port is also a big reason why I see the matchup in Goblins favor.
The sideboard may change that, but I doubt it. Overall, Goblins has the edge.
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