[Discussion] Legacy Power 9?

[Bardo]

Legacy doesn't have any true "power cards," ([So]LoMoxenAncestral[Tinker]Walk that are run in every deck that can and pretty much force you to run them or have a bad deck) but it does have several staples that, together, define what's going to be good or shitty.

Here's my list of 10 cards that I came up with when writing a post on TMD (LoA is usually considered power card #10):

1. Alpha Dual lands (plus Volcanic Island, or whichever one was left out of the Alpha print-run)
2. Onslaught Fetch lands
3. Wasteland (regulates the growth and consistency of poly-chromatic decks)
4. Force of Will (limits turn-1/2 degeneracy; empowers combo and aggro-control)
5. Brainstorm (makes blue-based control, combo and aggro-control viable and consistent when coupled with fetchlands)
6. Goblin Lackey (forces decks to answer a turn-1 threat)
7. Swords to Plowshares (most efficient creature removal in the format)
8. Tormod's Crypt (most efficient graveyard removal in the format)
9. Pithing Needle (most versatile answer to a variety of upper-tier permanents)
10. AEther Vial (format-defining in its own right; stymies countermagic, fixes mana, does nutty stuff)

The only ones are like "real" powers card are Force of Will--which turns a random blue card in your hand into an instant-speed Lotus that sacs for UU (the "fair" cost of a counterspell)--and Goblin Lackey which turns combat damage into free loti.

What's interesting about my list looking at it, is that all of the cards on it cost 0 or 1 mana. I think this is a hallmark of the format itself, where decks are required to seek efficiency anywhere possible (Vial and Lackey in Goblins; StP and Force in Threshold, etc.) or be outcompeted.

I'm not actually sold on Pithing Needle, but I wanted a list of ten cards. Everyone likes things that end in a zero.

[Machinus]

I think my five cards are better than everyone elses.

[Bardo]

I think my five cards are better than everyone elses.

Fetchlands are one of the most important parts of the Legacy card pool, arguably as important as the A/B/U/R duals (or really close to it), but the fetchlands' value are no more important than the cards they support (duals, basics, Brainstorm, etc.) They don't do anything on their own, you know?

Needs more Pernicious deed, its really too bad deed doesn't get good support from its colors.

Deed is good, but it's also slow, forces you into colors that aren't too spectacular together and doesn't really come alive until turn 4. The best cards in the format are playable on turn 1, like Vintage.

[ForceofWill]

Not many play it now but Survival is quite broken. IF I'm playing in a deck and it hits the table I usually win.

[jamest]

1. Goblin Lackey
2. Aether Vial
3. Goblin Warchief
4. Goblin Piledriver
5. Gempalm Incinerator
6. Goblin Ringleader
7. Goblin Matron
8. Mogg Fanatic
9. Goblin Tinkerer / Tin Street Hooligan

[Bardo]

Not many play it now but Survival is quite broken. IF I'm playing in a deck and it hits the table I usually win.

True, unless you're playing IGGy Pop or something, an active SotF is a real bitch to win against. However, most Survival decks run so many situational "toolbox" cards (that suck to draw in the wrong situation) and have a hard time winning if they can't stick and abuse Survival, that it's hard to call Survival of the Fittest a "power card," in reality or the abstract.

Really, Survival in Legacy is a lot like Oak of Druids in Vintage, which is probably not the deck that's going to take you to the finals somewhere.

When you're deck is built around a 2-mana green enchantment, caveat emptor.

@ Jamest - Tendrils of Agony and Engineered Plague might have a word with your list. ;)

[emidln]

Ancient Tomb
City of Traitors
Crystal Vein
Mox Diamond
Trinisphere
Chalice of the Void
Ensnaring Bridge
Sylvan Library
Uba Mask

And the Library award:
Crucible of Worlds

[Cavius The Great]

Isn't the main reason Power Nine, is what it is, because of the ridiculously expensive price tag? Besides it's initial power level, most people recognize Power Nine because of it's hefty monetary value. Just my two cents.

[scrumdogg]

Isn't the main reason Power Nine, is what it is, because of the ridiculously expensive price tag? Besides it's initial power level, most people recognize Power Nine because of it's hefty monetary value. Just my two cents.

But you need to ask yourself why the Power Nine have those price tags. The answer is simple supply & demand - low printed supply & demand for almost every deck in Vintage....even with proxies allowed in the vast majority of Vintage tournaments. Furthermore, if you look at the cards most people are touting, they tend to be among the pricier cards in our format (and for exactly the same reason as the Power Nine, except we have larger print pools & slightly less broken cards...).

I believe Bardo is on the right track of the definition of a Legacy Power Nine/Ten. They are cards that A) shape & define the format by B) being hyper-efficient in both cost & function & C) are played in almost every deck that can support them. As such, I would have to agree with


1. Alpha Dual lands (plus Volcanic Island, or whichever one was left out of the Alpha print-run)
2. Onslaught Fetch lands
3. Wasteland (regulates the growth and consistency of poly-chromatic decks)
4. Force of Will (limits turn-1/2 degeneracy; empowers combo and aggro-control)
5. Brainstorm (makes blue-based control, combo and aggro-control viable and consistent when coupled with fetchlands)
6. Goblin Lackey (forces decks to answer a turn-1 threat)
7. Swords to Plowshares (most efficient creature removal in the format)
8. Tormod's Crypt (most efficient graveyard removal in the format)
9. Pithing Needle (most versatile answer to a variety of upper-tier permanents)
10. AEther Vial (format-defining in its own right; stymies countermagic, fixes mana, does nutty stuff)

[Machinus]

Fetchlands are one of the most important parts of the Legacy card pool, arguably as important as the A/B/U/R duals (or really close to it), but the fetchlands' value are no more important than the cards they support (duals, basics, Brainstorm, etc.) They don't do anything on their own, you know?

I completely disagree. I think fetchlands are way more important. Legacy is about fetch->basic, not duals. And they do quite a lot on their own. They thin your deck and shuffle it, both of which are very useful. Combined with draw effects they are simply amazing.

They are the "power five!"

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

I completely disagree. I think fetchlands are way more important. Legacy is about fetch->basic, not duals. And they do quite a lot on their own. They thin your deck and shuffle it, both of which are very useful. Combined with draw effects they are simply amazing.

They are the "power five!"

Legacy is about Fetch -> whatever mana you need. In a deck with Fetches and duals, the fetches tend to be better draws, but in the absence of the dual-lands, the fetch-lands would be nowhere near as efficient. The function of the fetch-lands is directly dependant on the presence of dual-lands *and* basics.

[Bardo]

I completely disagree. I think fetchlands are way more important. Legacy is about fetch->basic, not duals. And they do quite a lot on their own. They thin your deck and shuffle it, both of which are very useful. Combined with draw effects they are simply amazing.

They are the "power five!"

Meh, I'm not going to split hairs about it. It doesn't really matter. Fetchlands are good; basics are good; duals are good; shuffling is good. In short, it's all good.

But fetchlands are not "power" cards.

By definition, power cards break the game:

Mox: breaks "play 1 land per turn" rule
Black Lotus: see Mox
Ancestral: breaks the "draw 1 card per turn" rule
Time Walk: breaks the, um, "take 1 turn per turn" rule

(All of these cards have functional reprints--shit like Time Warp, Inspiration, etc. but they're "fairly" cost for what they do. Power cards are not properly cost--which is what makes them "broken." If Mox Ruby cost {2} it would not be broken--it would be a bad Talisman of Impulse. Or if you had to wait several turns to play Black Lotus, that would also be fair.)

Timetwister is accepted into the "power nine" simply as an honor position at this point. It's by far the cheapest $$ (least demand) and is only played in dirty combo decks, by and large.

Legacy merely has, really good cards that are great, but don't break the deeper structure of the game. So, it has staples and cards that are so much better than comparitors that they're played in enough quantities to give a general character to the format. That's what my list is about. And fetchlands are really important, but they're not a Black Lotus.

[Machinus]

Precisely, there are no broken cards. I could make a huge list of good cards and it would be very hard to decide which are better than others. Listing all the common top8 cards really doesn't have a lot to do with inherent power level.

The most meaningful interpretation of "power" is not brokenness, but necessity in deckbuilding. In describing Vintage, they are not spoken about as breaking rules of the game (remember, everything is a time walk), but as essential and indispensible elements of deck construction. In this way, fetchlands are the power cards of the format, since good Legacy decks on average run eight of them!

I also think almost all Legacy players underestimate the power of fetchlands.

[Nightmare]

I also think almost all Legacy players underestimate the power of fetchlands.

I think almost all people using the handle Machinus make broad, sweeping, unfounded generalizations.

[Cait_Sith]

I think that Mr. Nightmare made my argument sans swearing and insults.

[Bardo]

The most meaningful interpretation of "power" is not brokenness, but necessity in deckbuilding. In describing Vintage, they are not spoken about as breaking rules of the game (remember, everything is a time walk), but as essential and indispensible elements of deck construction. In this way, fetchlands are the power cards of the format, since good Legacy decks on average run eight of them!

"Power" implies more than something "necessary." It means "powerful." Mana Crypt, Sol Ring, Mana Vault, Brainstorm, Force of Will, Demonic Tutor, Yawgmoth's Will, most of the blue A/B/U/R duals, basic Islands are all ubiquitous in Vintage deck construction (not to mention other highly popular cards like Dark Ritual, Mana Drain, Mishra's Workshop, etc), but are never referred to as "power cards" and they are essentially "necessary" to play, lest you have a bad deck

"Power 9" is really just a romantic carry-over from the appeal of MtG's early days, when things like The Deck used to actually run Timetwister. It's really an anachronism, since Yawg's Will and Tinker are on par with the rest of the Power 9.

[Machinus]

I think almost all people using the handle Machinus make broad, sweeping, unfounded generalizations.

Broad, sure, but definitely not unfounded. I welcome your analysis.

If you're talking about fetchlands, you might want to read the threads actually arguing about whether or not it's "worth it" to have better draws.


As for "power," the word does not mean "broken" any longer. A huge number of Vintage-legal cards break fundamental magic rules, and most of them aren't even on the restricted list. Vintage players don't refer to "power" as exceptionally broken cards; since every person plays with them, they aren't much more broken than tons of other cards, and they define the environment, their description is one of deckbuilding context.

Legacy is too young to have discovered its foundational cards, but we do know some of them. Understanding what cards define the format really doesn't have anything to do with fundamental magic rules; what is important is the power of cards relative to everything else. Currently, Legacy is actually pretty well-balanced. If I had to find an exception, I would probably choose the strength of Wasteland vs. the stronger defense of Fetchlands. On top of that, they perform free services for the consistency and quality of your deck.

[Complete_Jank]

The Legacy Power 9 eh? In no particular order (except the number one)

Complete_Jank

Mr. Nightmare

Lego_Army_Man

InfamousBearAssassin

Finn

SpatulaOfTheAges

Goblin Snowman

wastedlife

xsockmonkeyx

LOL

By definition, power cards break the game

Actually most of the Power 9 in Vintage are not broken. They are just really good cards that you would want to play in almost any deck that you could manage to fit them into.

There are other cards that are on the restricted list that are actually better.

The Power 9 in Vintage all allow one thing: More Mana and/or card draw for more than their mana cost.

[Bardo]

They are just really good cards that you would want to play in almost any deck that you could manage to fit them into.

There are other cards that are on the restricted list that are actually better.

The P9 is not just "good," they bend the rules of the game to the extent that break how the game is structured at its core--which is basically to nuke the limiting rules on mana development (and card drawing to a lesser extent)--which is one of the most important limits in the early game.

If you could play 4 of each Mox, Lotus and Ancestral in Vintage (7 of the P9), Magic would play so differently from the game it is in Vintage to something completely unrecognizable.

But, stepping back from it all, this is really a silly debate. "P9" is just a utterly meaningless term in 2007.

Edit - To be clear, when I say "P9" I'm really thinking about Black Lotus and the five Moxen.

[Nightmare]

If you could play 4 of each Mox, Lotus and Ancestral in Vintage (7 of the P9), Magic would play so differently from the game it is in Vintage so something completely unrecognizable.

I'd recognize it from Shandalar.