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Thread: [Discussion] TES vs. IGGy Pop - Which deck is stronger?

  1. #1
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    Re: [Deck] Iggy Pop

    I'm curious as to what showings IGG has had recently, when not piloted by Mike Bomholt. I'm definately not claiming a "no one not named Gearhart can play Solidarity," but the question is a relevant one. Here's how I see the deck:

    - You cannot win through your worst matchups (Thresh, Fish) without protection from another color.
    - There is some debate as to what color to splash, those being white (Orim's chant) or green (Xantid Swarm).
    - Either way, you have a difficult time winning through effects such as Tormod's Crypt and Meddling Mage.
    - The answers for those cards are unweildy in any of the colors above.

    Now, that being said (and little of it is debateable, although I'm sure many people will debate it anyway), The benefits of going 5 color are here:

    - Access to red provides you with the following:
    • A third Ritual effect in Rite of Flame
    • Burning Wish, for access to outs and win conditions in game 1. (Effectively 4 more Tutors)
    • Shattering Spree, an uncounterable out to Chalice
    • Empty the Warrens, an extremely good card vs. your worst matchups, and a natural foil to Meddling Mage

    At the cost of manabase stability. Note that this is really a non-issue, since your manabase moves toward a less resiliant one by including more duals for Chant/Swarm.

    Moving toward a TES build rather than IGG-based provides:
    - Less reliance on the graveyard. (you can still use it, but it isn't necessary)
    - The number 10 is no longer the goal (Tendrils isn't your only win)
    - Flexible sideboarding options (the best 5 colors can offer)
    - Protection (MD Xantid)

    I mean, I don't really understand the argument anymore. The benefits of moving to 5 color, getting rid of the yard dependancy, and gaining EtW seem overwhelming to me. They most certainly outweigh the few costs - No fetches for Brainstorm and Wasteland vulnerability. What am I not seeing?
    Last edited by Nightmare; 02-23-2007 at 06:19 PM.

  2. #2
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    Re: [Deck] Iggy Pop

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Nightmare View Post
    Aside from that moderative note, I'm curious as to what showings IGG has had recently, when not piloted by Mike Bomholt. I'm definately not claiming a "no one not named Gearhart can play Solidarity," but the question is a relevant one.
    Very few people play this deck. The couple of times I've played I've made Top16 and narrowly missed Top8. As far as I know that's the best TES did this past weekend. This deck had 2 appearances in Top8 at Worlds one of which was not Mike Bomholt. Nassim Ketita also made Top16 at GP Philly.

  3. #3

    Re: [Deck] Iggy Pop

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Nightmare View Post
    [COLOR="Red"]

    Aside from that moderative note, I'm curious as to what showings IGG has had recently, when not piloted by Mike Bomholt. I'm definately not claiming a "no one not named Gearhart can play Solidarity," but the question is a relevant one. Here's how I see the deck:
    well, Michael Morgran got 4th place in october at a dfd...and if i'm not mistaken I think iggy took 1st at a recent meandeck tourney...I think that it is a lack of good iggy players...personally a friend of mine took first in a local tourney a couple of weeks ago playing iggy pop, and also I know another dude playing iggy who also took first in a local tourney...if there were just as many good pilots playing iggy pop at a big event as the ammount of goblins, and thresh show up, i'm sure that there would deffinately be more t8 for iggy

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Nightmare View Post
    [COLOR="Red"]
    - You cannot win through your worst matchups (Thresh, Fish) without protection from another color.
    - There is some debate as to what color to splash, those being white (Orim's chant) or green (Xantid Swarm).
    - Either way, you have a difficult time winning through effects such as Tormod's Crypt and Meddling Mage.
    - The answers for those cards are unweildy in any of the colors above.
    1- well, the only reason TES does is because of ETW right? well iggy could run that too if wanted but it doesn't...people don't realize iggy is a different deck than TES...TES runs xantid right? whats wrong with protection from another color?
    2- your point is?...you can go either way if wanted...its just preference and meta call...(or cost orims vs xantid...)
    3- its not too hard...most of the time all you need is one bounce spell or so


    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Nightmare View Post
    [COLOR="Red"]
    Moving toward a TES build rather than IGG-based provides:
    - Less reliance on the graveyard. (you can still use it, but it isn't necessary)
    - The number 10 is no longer the goal (Tendrils isn't your only win)
    - Flexible sideboarding options (the best 5 colors can offer)
    - Protection (MD Xantid)
    1- true, but iggy can always go hurkuls or double tendrills as well
    2- if you have iggy, 10 isn't really a problem
    3- true, but the only color iggy is missing out on is red...
    4- iggy runs maindeck protection as well (xantid,chant,leyline)


    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Nightmare View Post
    [COLOR="Red"]
    I mean, I don't really understand the argument anymore. The benefits of moving to 5 color, getting rid of the yard dependancy, and gaining EtW seem overwhelming to me. They most certainly outweigh the few costs - No fetches for Brainstorm and Wasteland vulnerability. What am I not seeing?
    I'm not really trying to bash TES or anything but it souns like you are saying iggy is strictly inferior to TES...well, why don't TES players just play solidarity? The reason is because they are different decks and have different benefits and weaknesses. while TES has a lot of benefits that iggy pop doesn't, it is not strictly superior in every way...

  4. #4

    Re: [Deck] Iggy Pop

    Adding red gives you one card that is very good Empty the Warrens. The rest of what you listed I really think is very debatable.

    Burning wish does not give you four more tutors in TES because TES doesn't run mystical or intuition instead it runs burning wish and plunge into darkness. So saying that adding red gives you more tutors is not valid at all.

    Burning wish does give you access to cards from your sideboard and RFG zone, that is a valid arguement.

    Essentially burning wish is run in the place of intuition. Both cards have different roles. Intuition lets you fetch maindeck cards and also fills your graveyard giving it inherent synergy with IGG and Cabal Ritual, and is also instant speed letting you play it on your opponents turn, but it does cost three mana. Burning wish costs two and lets you fetch non maindeck cards. This is good for fetching answers, but not as good for getting threats. If you fetch IGG with burning wish then you don't have a tutor in your yard to fetch up tendrils/warrens, and you don't have anymore iggs in the yard to continue the loop. If you fetch Diminishing returns with burning wish then you pretty much have to have LED in order to pay the UU in its cost.

    Plunge into darkness seems terrible to me, you replace the consistency and efficiency of mytical tutor with a black impulse that costs you life(compounded with city of brass this really does matter).

    You brush off the mana base issue wich is the biggest weakness that TES has. It runs an entirely wasteable manabase. Saying that splashing in iggy makes the manabase just as vulnerable is just wrong, you still have 8 fetches and basic lands in the deck even when you add one or two off color duals to support xantid/chant or whatever protection you decide to run.

    Yes iggy pop is more reliant on the graveyard, its main path to victory is a recursion combo, but it can and does win without access to its graveyard, simple tutor chains and double tendrils plays are not hard at all when you run 3x tendrils and 12 tutors, you also have easy access(via mystical tutor) to uncounterable maindeck bounce and a whole slew of cards in the sideboard to deal with permanent hate. TES has access to these tools as well, and runs burning wish to have game one access to some of the sideboard options.

    I am supprised you brought up the performance issue, I think it is another big strike against TES, considering the only relevant success it has had was at a 50 man tournament without a top 8 in europe.


    All in all these two decks are very different storm decks with their own advantages and disadvantages, this is why I made the original post. Its like somebody going to every thread about solidarity saying "just play spring tide its faster and can run sorceries"

  5. #5

    Re: [Deck] Iggy Pop

    Quote Originally Posted by lukatron2 View Post
    well, Michael Morgran got 4th place in october at a dfd...and if i'm not mistaken I think iggy took 1st at a recent meandeck tourney...I think that it is a lack of good iggy players...personally a friend of mine took first in a local tourney a couple of weeks ago playing iggy pop, and also I know another dude playing iggy who also took first in a local tourney...if there were just as many good pilots playing iggy pop at a big event as the ammount of goblins, and thresh show up, i'm sure that there would deffinately be more t8 for iggy
    Local tournaments donít mean a thing. Iíve been wrecking the local metagame every time I play, so what. You canít blame poor results due to bad players, unless you were at every event watching every Ill-Gotten Gains player.
    Quote Originally Posted by lukatron2 View Post
    1- well, the only reason TES does is because of ETW right? well iggy could run that too if wanted but it doesn't...people don't realize iggy is a different deck than TES...TES runs xantid right? whats wrong with protection from another color?
    2- your point is?...you can go either way if wanted...its just preference and meta call...(or cost orims vs xantid...)
    3- its not too hard...most of the time all you need is one bounce spell or so
    Quote Originally Posted by blarknob View Post
    Adding red gives you one card that is very good Empty the Warrens. The rest of what you listed I really think is very debatable.
    Wrong, ETW is an advantage. The main reasons to run red are Rite of Flame (way better than Cabal Ritual) and Burning Wish. You just used Xantid as a difference between the two decks in one of the next quotes, then just used Xantid in Iggyís defense. Choose one. Orimís Chant makes you even slower, I donít understand how you could want to slow down a deck that is already a consistent turn 4 win to a 5/6.
    Quote Originally Posted by lukatron2 View Post
    I'm not really trying to bash TES or anything but it souns like you are saying iggy is strictly inferior to TES...well, why don't TES players just play solidarity? The reason is because they are different decks and have different benefits and weaknesses. while TES has a lot of benefits that iggy pop doesn't, it is not strictly superior in every way...
    Turn 5/6? Why are you playing Iggy Pop winning turns 5/6 ? TES is actually turn 2-3 consistent. Thatís the reason to run TES over Iggy/Solidarity.
    Quote Originally Posted by lukatron2 View Post
    1- true, but iggy can always go hurkuls or double tendrills as well
    2- if you have iggy, 10 isn't really a problem
    3- true, but the only color iggy is missing out on is red...
    4- iggy runs maindeck protection as well (xantid,chant,leyline)
    1.) That takes time, you donít want to give Threshold time to find more mages and/or stifle.
    2.) True, however, ETW allows you to be faster and not need the magic number 6 for mana.
    3.) So why not go 5 color?
    4.) Leyline is not protection, for the life of me I will argue this until the day I die.

    Quote Originally Posted by blarknob
    Burning wish does not give you four more tutors in TES because TES doesn't run mystical or intuition instead it runs burning wish and plunge into darkness. So saying that adding red gives you more tutors is not valid at all.
    True, we have the same amount of tutors but TESís tutors are stronger.

    Burning wish does give you access to cards from your sideboard and RFG zone, that is a valid arguement.
    Agreed.

    Essentially burning wish is run in the place of intuition. Both cards have different roles. Intuition lets you fetch maindeck cards and also fills your graveyard giving it inherent synergy with IGG and Cabal Ritual, and is also instant speed letting you play it on your opponents turn, but it does cost three mana. Burning wish costs two and lets you fetch non maindeck cards. This is good for fetching answers, but not as good for getting threats. If you fetch IGG with burning wish then you don't have a tutor in your yard to fetch up tendrils/warrens, and you don't have anymore iggs in the yard to continue the loop. If you fetch Diminishing returns with burning wish then you pretty much have to have LED in order to pay the UU in its cost.
    Understandable on Burning Wish Vs Intuition on roles. Burning Wish fetches Ill-Gotten Gains a lot, just because you fetch Igg doesnít mean you havenít discarded/played a different tutor effect (Wish, IT, Plunge). TES doesnít want or need a loop, you need one Ill-Gotten Gains to win the game, not two. One Igg will raise the storm high enough to win. You donít have to have LED to cast Diminishing Returns, the mana base in TES is 5c for a reason, not to mention Lotus Petals.

    Plunge into darkness seems terrible to me, you replace the consistency and efficiency of mytical tutor with a black impulse that costs you life(compounded with city of brass this really does matter).
    Itís fairly obvious you never gave the card a chance, first off it gives you the card now. TES is rather redundant with cards and what they do so finding what you need is rather easy. Plunge into Darkness doesnít lose to predict, it also doesnít lose to waiting a turn. Life doesnít matter when you are winning.

    You brush off the mana base issue wich is the biggest weakness that TES has. It runs an entirely wasteable manabase. Saying that splashing in iggy makes the manabase just as vulnerable is just wrong, you still have 8 fetches and basic lands in the deck even when you add one or two off color duals to support xantid/chant or whatever protection you decide to run.
    TESís mana base being vulnerable is rather irrelevant when you play 8 artifact mana spells to get you going, also when keeping a hand weak to wasteland (hardly ever happens) hold the land itís simple.

    Yes iggy pop is more reliant on the graveyard, its main path to victory is a recursion combo, but it can and does win without access to its graveyard, simple tutor chains and double tendrils plays are not hard at all when you run 3x tendrils and 12 tutors, you also have easy access(via mystical tutor) to uncounterable maindeck bounce and a whole slew of cards in the sideboard to deal with permanent hate. TES has access to these tools as well, and runs burning wish to have game one access to some of the sideboard options.
    Being reliant on the graveyard makes you weak and vulnerable, even more than playing non-basics. As Iíve said before finding your 3cc card to get around Meddling Mage takes time in which theyíll find another Meddling Mage and/or stifle.

    I am supprised you brought up the performance issue, I think it is another big strike against TES, considering the only relevant success it has had was at a 50 man tournament without a top 8 in europe.
    TES is still a fairly new deck and hasnít had many opportunities to put up results.

  6. #6
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    Re: [Deck] Iggy Pop

    Lukatron, I'll do my best to discuss your post, but in the future I plan to ignore them if you can't do us all the common decency of using the shift key and a bit of grammar.

    Quote Originally Posted by lukatron2 View Post
    well, Michael Morgran got 4th place in october at a dfd...and if i'm not mistaken I think iggy took 1st at a recent meandeck tourney...I think that it is a lack of good iggy players...personally a friend of mine took first in a local tourney a couple of weeks ago playing iggy pop, and also I know another dude playing iggy who also took first in a local tourney...if there were just as many good pilots playing iggy pop at a big event as the ammount of goblins, and thresh show up, i'm sure that there would deffinately be more t8 for iggy
    The first place finish at the Meandeck Open was Bomholt. This is specifically why I asked the question. It wasn't a knock to the deck, I haven't seen many results and wanted to know if a lot of people are still playing it. There's no reason to attack the question, I'm looking for data.

    Quote Originally Posted by lukatron
    1- well, the only reason TES does is because of ETW right? well iggy could run that too if wanted but it doesn't...people don't realize iggy is a different deck than TES...TES runs xantid right? whats wrong with protection from another color?
    2- your point is?...you can go either way if wanted...its just preference and meta call...(or cost orims vs xantid...)
    3- its not too hard...most of the time all you need is one bounce spell or so
    Again, no argument necessary here, these are observations, not detriments to the deck. There is no perfect deck out there, so I'm not entirely sure why you take so much offense.


    Quote Originally Posted by lukatron
    1- true, but iggy can always go hurkuls or double tendrills as well
    2- if you have iggy, 10 isn't really a problem
    3- true, but the only color iggy is missing out on is red...
    4- iggy runs maindeck protection as well (xantid,chant,leyline)
    - Hurkyl's is much less of a strategy when you don't have Chrome Mox as an additional string of spells. Often that plan must come online to circumvent Meddling Mage or other threats, and it's a difficult plan to win with. The Double Tendrils plan takes a lot to set up, although it is more effective than Hurkyls.
    - What happens when you don't have access to your graveyard?
    - If you're already in 4 colors, again, the benefits of moving all the way into 5 are much more than the potential detriments.
    - Leyline is not protection. Leyline does not stop Force of Will, or Stifle, or Meddling Mage. Leyline is great when your opponent already doesn't have Force, or when you can bait the Force, but either way it's win-more. the other two are relevant, but there's still no concensus about what to run.

    Quote Originally Posted by lukatron
    I'm not really trying to bash TES or anything but it souns like you are saying iggy is strictly inferior to TES...well, why don't TES players just play solidarity? The reason is because they are different decks and have different benefits and weaknesses. while TES has a lot of benefits that iggy pop doesn't, it is not strictly superior in every way...
    Here it is. Quote me if you want. TES is strictly superior to IGGy Pop. I see no reason to play IGGy over TES in any metagame. I'm looking for a solid reason why that statement is incorrect.


    Quote Originally Posted by blarknob
    Burning wish does not give you four more tutors in TES because TES doesn't run mystical or intuition instead it runs burning wish and plunge into darkness. So saying that adding red gives you more tutors is not valid at all.

    Essentially burning wish is run in the place of intuition. Both cards have different roles. Intuition lets you fetch maindeck cards and also fills your graveyard giving it inherent synergy with IGG and Cabal Ritual, and is also instant speed letting you play it on your opponents turn, but it does cost three mana. Burning wish costs two and lets you fetch non maindeck cards. This is good for fetching answers, but not as good for getting threats. If you fetch IGG with burning wish then you don't have a tutor in your yard to fetch up tendrils/warrens, and you don't have anymore iggs in the yard to continue the loop. If you fetch Diminishing returns with burning wish then you pretty much have to have LED in order to pay the UU in its cost.
    If you want to parallel tutors, I would not consider Mystical in that parallel, because it cannot (on it's own) put a card in your hand. While it is excellent as an endstep play or during your upkeep, it costs you a draw step to utilize it, something that none of TES's tutors do. As a comparison to Intuition, both Int. and BWish have drawbacks, although they are slight, but Burning Wish's flexibility wins out in my opinion. Note that any spell you would want to tutor for in the MD can be wished for in the board, with the exception of a mana source, although with 4 additional ritual effects and 4 Chrome Moxen, this is a relatively weak play anyway. You'll never need to go through the IGG loop more than once, as your gameplan doesn't revolve around the IGG loop to begin with. While the BWish->IGG play leaves you without a tutor in the yard, very rarely has that scenario come up. Additionally, if you can go Bwish->IGG, you can go BWish->EtW, which is a stronger play vs. your worst matchups anyway, and to have 6 mana means you've already played at least 1-2 ritual effects for storm. As for DReturns, every one of your lands save 1 produces U, as do Lotus Petal and potentially Chrome Mox. UU is very rarely a problem.

    Quote Originally Posted by blarknob
    Plunge into darkness seems terrible to me, you replace the consistency and efficiency of mytical tutor with a black impulse that costs you life(compounded with city of brass this really does matter).
    Plunge into Drakness is an incredibly versatile spell. It actually entwines or uses the other ability occasionally, to help alleviate that life loss you refer to. There have been many times where I EtW for 6 or so, get in a few swings, and sac+Impulse with damage on the stack. It also puts a card in your hand, without costing a draw spell/step.

    Quote Originally Posted by blarknob
    You brush off the mana base issue wich is the biggest weakness that TES has. It runs an entirely wasteable manabase. Saying that splashing in iggy makes the manabase just as vulnerable is just wrong, you still have 8 fetches and basic lands in the deck even when you add one or two off color duals to support xantid/chant or whatever protection you decide to run.
    I didn't brush it off, I freely admit that the deck is vulnerable to Wasteland. What I deny is the relevance of that in today's metagame. If goblins (the only relevant deck that runs wasteland) wastes my land, its tempo they don't utilize dropping dudes on my head. They also don't play Daze or Force, which allows me more comfort in winning without land (something I'm sure you realize this deck and IGG can do). Beyond that, I didn't say IGG has the same vulnerablity to waste, I said it has more than the 2c build did, since it opened its manabase up to a 3rd color.

    Quote Originally Posted by blarknob
    Yes iggy pop is more reliant on the graveyard, its main path to victory is a recursion combo, but it can and does win without access to its graveyard, simple tutor chains and double tendrils plays are not hard at all when you run 3x tendrils and 12 tutors, you also have easy access(via mystical tutor) to uncounterable maindeck bounce and a whole slew of cards in the sideboard to deal with permanent hate. TES has access to these tools as well, and runs burning wish to have game one access to some of the sideboard options.
    That whole paragraph can be translated to "Although it is a difficult thing to do, IGG can win through graveyard hate. TES does it better, though." I'm not being arrogant, that's really what you said. Your MD bounce spell costs 1UU to use, when you need 6+ mana just to get your combo online to beginwith. I'm not saying it can't be done, but it's much easier just to pay RR to Spree it, or win around it with EtW.

    Quote Originally Posted by blarknob
    All in all these two decks are very different storm decks with their own advantages and disadvantages, this is why I made the original post. Its like somebody going to every thread about solidarity saying "just play spring tide its faster and can run sorceries"
    I addressed this issue above. Spring Tide is a fundamentally inferior strategy to Solidarity - very significant detriments to the deck are traded for marginal benefits. In my eyes, IGGy Pop is the Spring Tide, not TES. You've garnered yourself a more stable manabase, in exchange for vulnerability to counterspells and grave hate, sacrificing EtW, and being about a turn slower on average.

  7. #7

    Re: [Deck] Iggy Pop

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Nightmare View Post
    That whole paragraph can be translated to "Although it is a difficult thing to do, IGG can win through graveyard hate. TES does it better, though." I'm not being arrogant, that's really what you said. Your MD bounce spell costs 1UU to use, when you need 6+ mana just to get your combo online to beginwith. I'm not saying it can't be done, but it's much easier just to pay RR to Spree it, or win around it with EtW.
    Actually thats not what I said, if you read my post again you will see that I said its a "not hard at all" thing to do not a "difficult thing to do"

  8. #8
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    Re: [Deck] Iggy Pop

    Quote Originally Posted by blarknob View Post
    Actually thats not what I said, if you read my post again you will see that I said its a "not hard at all" thing to do not a "difficult thing to do"
    Fine. It isn't difficult. It isn't fast, either. Every turn it takes you to set up your win properly - either with Double Tendrils or Wipe - which means you 1) Draw into two of a 3 of, 2) Mystical for Tendrils taking at least 2 turns to do so, or 3) Mystical for Wipe Away taking at least 2 turns to do so; gives your opponent more time to find ways to beat you/stop you. Let me give you an example:

    Turn 1, your opponent goes Tormod's Crypt, Polluted Delta, go. (I realize that pre-board, this is unlikely at best. My point is, this is a significant problem for IGG). You now have to deal with that before you go off. Your options are: Turn 1, land, go, Mystical for Wipe on end step, turn 2 Petal Land Wipe attempt to win. Turn 1 land Go, EOT Mystical for Tendrils, attempt to win through Crypt before opponent can solidify his disruption base.

    Neither of these options leave you much wiggle room. They also fold to Force on an accelleration piece. The deck has a hard enough time winning turn 1-2 without disruption, it can't get easier when you throw a 1UU spell in the mix.

    Turn 1, your opponent goes Tundra, Mother of Runes. Turn 2, Meddling Mage on Ill-Gotten Gains. You now have the same 2 outs as before, being Wipe Away or double Tendrils. If you Mystical, Mom activates during your upkeep to buy a turn, possibly enough for a second Mage or a cantrip into Stifle/Force. You still need at least 2 land drops to cast Wipe, unless you want to Petal it out, which wastes Storm and a card in hand, plus opens you up to counterspell disruption.

    Your entire protection scheme revolves around your ability to draw a 1-of, and/or a double tendrils plan. Both of those are sketchy at best, and extremely tough to do under a clock (say, Jotun Grunt).

    Now ask, What does TES do in those situations?

    Example 1, they laugh at Crypt and win anyway (or EtW for 6 and win in 2 turns)
    Example 2, they laugh at Mage and win anyway (or EtW for 6 and win in 2 turns)

  9. #9

    Re: [Deck] Iggy Pop

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by lukatron2
    I'm not really trying to bash TES or anything but it souns like you are saying iggy is strictly inferior to TES...well, why don't TES players just play solidarity? The reason is because they are different decks and have different benefits and weaknesses. while TES has a lot of benefits that iggy pop doesn't, it is not strictly superior in every way...

    Turn 5/6? Why are you playing Iggy Pop winning turns 5/6 ? TES is actually turn 2-3 consistent. Thatís the reason to run TES over Iggy/Solidarity.

    Come on now...That is a totally bias statement to claim that Iggy goes off turn 5/6 consistently...try 2-4...Also solidarity can consistently go off on turn 4-5...

  10. #10
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    Re: [Deck] Iggy Pop

    Are you trying to say that TES isn't a turn faster that IGGy? C'mon man. IGGy is 3-4. TES is 2-3. If you are about to say that IGGy is 2-4 then I would say TES is 1-3, because I'd wager that TES goes off on turn 1 just as often as IGGy goes off on turn 2.

    Kronicler
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  11. #11

    Re: [Deck] Iggy Pop

    Quote Originally Posted by Kronicler View Post
    Are you trying to say that TES isn't a turn faster that IGGy? C'mon man. IGGy is 3-4. TES is 2-3. If you are about to say that IGGy is 2-4 then I would say TES is 1-3, because I'd wager that TES goes off on turn 1 just as often as IGGy goes off on turn 2.

    Kronicler
    Well, if you actually read the post, you might be able to tell that the main thing I was was that Iggy is not a turn 5-6 deck but rather a turn 2-4.

  12. #12
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    Re: [Deck] Iggy Pop

    Iggy Pop is much more reliant in a field full of black disruption decks. I know most of the arguement is focused on Meddling Mage and Crypt, those are strong cards against Iggy, we know that. The fact that theyre weak weapons against TES is true but it doesnt completly steal the show for me. Cards like Duress and Hymn hurt TES alot more than Iggy. Ive seen TES blow down to 3-4 cards an struggle a pathetic EtW alot now. Iggy can just Mystical Tutor for Ill Gotten Gains and win.

    Ill also argue the matter of consistancy a great deal. TES can combo off a storm of 6-8 gobs and try to put lethal on you turn 4 or so, or it can be luckey and get the storm of 10 and tendrils you. I rarely ever struggle to get storm of 10 with IGGy. Once you hit the loop you win.
    Now playing real formats.

  13. #13
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    Re: [Deck] Iggy Pop

    Quote Originally Posted by bane_of_the_living View Post
    TES can combo off a storm of 6-8 gobs and try to put lethal on you turn 4 or so, or it can be luckey and get the storm of 10 and tendrils you.
    I've been watching people play TES and have played it myself, and I don't think I've ever ONLY put 6-8 Goblins in play. It's usually been 10-12 gobs, lethal on turn 3, or just Tendrils. Sure, disruption does hurt, but that's true of all decks. Iggy is no exception.

    Quote Originally Posted by bane_of_the_living View Post
    Once you hit the loop you win.
    Ya know, because nobody plays blue or any kind of control in this format. If this were actually true, I would drop all other decks and just play Iggy. It's such a shame that's not the case.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Burton
    What does that mean? Huh? "China is here." I don't even know what the hell that means. All I know is that this Lo Pan character comes out of thin air in the middle of a goddamn alley while his buddies are flying around on wires cutting everybody to shreds, and he just STANDS there! Waiting for me to drive my truck straight through him, with LIGHT coming out of his mouth!

  14. #14

    Re: [Deck] Iggy Pop

    Quote Originally Posted by bane_of_the_living View Post
    Iggy Pop is much more reliant in a field full of black disruption decks. I know most of the arguement is focused on Meddling Mage and Crypt, those are strong cards against Iggy, we know that. The fact that theyre weak weapons against TES is true but it doesnt completly steal the show for me. Cards like Duress and Hymn hurt TES alot more than Iggy. Ive seen TES blow down to 3-4 cards an struggle a pathetic EtW alot now. Iggy can just Mystical Tutor for Ill Gotten Gains and win.

    Ill also argue the matter of consistancy a great deal. TES can combo off a storm of 6-8 gobs and try to put lethal on you turn 4 or so, or it can be luckey and get the storm of 10 and tendrils you. I rarely ever struggle to get storm of 10 with IGGy. Once you hit the loop you win.
    I think you highly underestimate TES, especially when it comes to winning with Tendrils. I win with Tendrils more than ETW by far. Your statement is false about the hate cards, if anything TES may be stronger due to having more artifact mana to play and Tutor-> Diminishing Returns.

  15. #15
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    Re: [Discussion] TES vs. IGGy Pop - Which deck is stronger?

    Right now (as in, TES still hasn't done much yet whereas Ill-Gotten Gains has several high-quality finishes in a variety of places (including a single T16 at a Grand Prix and a handful of strong finishes elsewhere)), Ill-Gotten Gains has to be the favorite.

    In what testing I've done with or against the deck, Ill-Gotten Gains is pretty damn able to get out of most situations. I've Maged it, I've Crypted it, I've certainly had it empty handed on turn 3 - but unless you follow that up with a serious clock then you'd better hold onto your seats. You don't absolutely have to win every game on turn 3 with either deck - and both decks are pretty capable of playing as fast as the situation requires.

    But until TES puts up serious results, I probably would take it under less metagame consideration than I would Ill-Gotten Gains.

  16. #16

    Re: [Discussion] TES vs. IGGy Pop - Which deck is stronger?

    Okay people, I'm just going to get to it so forgive me if i misspell something or forget to capitolize a word, I just want to say this:


    Here it is. Quote me if you want. TES is strictly superior to IGGy Pop. I see no reason to play IGGy over TES in any metagame. I'm looking for a solid reason why that statement is incorrect.
    Allright I quoted you. and i tend to disagree because personally, I think they are damned close to even. TES wins on turns 1-3 when IGGY-POP wins 2-4. we all can pretty much agree on this. Another point we can all (Probably) agree on is that IGGY-POP has a better match vs. decks with insane amounts of disruption like B/w confidant. IGGY-POP also has (correct me if i'm wrong) more room for meta cards like leyline and chant.

    If you want to parallel tutors, I would not consider Mystical in that parallel, because it cannot (on it's own) put a card in your hand. While it is excellent as an endstep play or during your upkeep, it costs you a draw step to utilize it, something that none of TES's tutors do. As a comparison to Intuition, both Int. and BWish have drawbacks, although they are slight, but Burning Wish's flexibility wins out in my opinion. Note that any spell you would want to tutor for in the MD can be wished for in the board, with the exception of a mana source, although with 4 additional ritual effects and 4 Chrome Moxen, this is a relatively weak play anyway. You'll never need to go through the IGG loop more than once, as your gameplan doesn't revolve around the IGG loop to begin with. While the BWish->IGG play leaves you without a tutor in the yard, very rarely has that scenario come up. Additionally, if you can go Bwish->IGG, you can go BWish->EtW, which is a stronger play vs. your worst matchups anyway, and to have 6 mana means you've already played at least 1-2 ritual effects for storm. As for DReturns, every one of your lands save 1 produces U, as do Lotus Petal and potentially Chrome Mox. UU is very rarely a problem.
    When comparing tutors please try to keep in mind that they have different roles in each deck. For instance, Burning Wish in IGGY-POP is probably going to weaken the mana base, and waste SB space where you could have run instant speed bounce and extra protection like Defense Grid.
    Similarily Intuition in TES would make it rely on the yard more and it would be a bad version of IGGY-POP.

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by bane_of_the_living
    Once you hit the loop you win.

    Ya know, because nobody plays blue or any kind of control in this format. If this were actually true, I would drop all other decks and just play Iggy. It's such a shame that's not the case.
    True. but the same goes for TES. Example: Fow Xantid Swarm, then Daze/Counterspell a tutor or chant in responce to sacing LEDs

    Example 1, they laugh at Crypt and win anyway (or EtW for 6 and win in 2 turns)
    Example 2, they laugh at Mage and win anyway (or EtW for 6 and win in 2 turns)
    Reading the the examples you posted ( I didn't copy them due to length) your right. IGGYPOP loses to yard hate in the worst way. But TES loses to discard in the bad way as well. My meta is full of thresh(which if i'm not mistaken, is bad for both decks) and B/w confidant(worse for you). So what I'm saying is that the decks both have their weakneses: IGGY is a turn slower and loses to crypt more, but is more adaptable to your meta. TES is faster, but loses to the likes of B/w confidant, cards like Abeyance in response to D.returns, and isn't as adaptable to the meta.

    Also, (somebody please test this for me) when two equally skilled players play IGGY-POP(U/B/w) vs. TES i belive it's a 50/50 match.


    It's one thing if you make mistakes, but it's a whole different game when you actively say in the post you're going to correct it and then don't. - Di
    Last edited by Peter_Rotten; 02-24-2007 at 09:31 AM.

  17. #17
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    Re: [Discussion] TES vs. IGGy Pop - Which deck is stronger?

    Iggy Pop is much more reliant in a field full of black disruption decks. I know most of the arguement is focused on Meddling Mage and Crypt, those are strong cards against Iggy, we know that. The fact that theyre weak weapons against TES is true but it doesnt completly steal the show for me. Cards like Duress and Hymn hurt TES alot more than Iggy. Ive seen TES blow down to 3-4 cards an struggle a pathetic EtW alot now. Iggy can just Mystical Tutor for Ill Gotten Gains and win.
    Not that I really have much to add in this whole thing, but I figure I'd point out that at the last large tournament (GAGG), I saw TES running over black disruption decks. Deadguy, Pox, etc. They were disrupting them a little early, but couldn't compete with the raw power of the deck's draws.

    You either highly overestimate the black deck in that matchup or seriously underestimate TES's ability to fight disruption. Pick one.

    Right now (as in, TES still hasn't done much yet whereas Ill-Gotten Gains has several high-quality finishes in a variety of places (including a single T16 at a Grand Prix and a handful of strong finishes elsewhere)), Ill-Gotten Gains has to be the favorite.
    But until TES puts up serious results, I probably would take it under less metagame consideration than I would Ill-Gotten Gains.
    IGGY Pop has also been in the metagame for over a year longer than this deck, so put that into consideration as well. If TES was around back then, it is possible ( I dare say probable) that you would think otherwise. Since it's release, there has only been a single large event in the Northeast (not counting those Meandeck Opens with poor turnouts) and the deck put two players in the top16. Not a top8, but it showed the deck is a force. It's also shown a lot of progress in the tournaments over in Europe, including a large win. On the other hand, Iggy Pop has for the most part fallen off the radar. With the exception of that win by the creator of the deck, there really hasn't been much of a showing for it in recent months (and don't count that 9-man Smmenen showing).

  18. #18
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    Re: [Discussion] TES vs. IGGy Pop - Which deck is stronger?

    Black disruption does NOT kill TES.

    I playtested against Deadguy a while back, he had the combo-crippling draw of Ritual into Duress, Hymn. Next turn, I Tendrils him for 24.

    Given the versatility of cards in TES, it gives the deck a lot more options, but also exposes it to inconsistency (4 Tutor hands, for example). Mulligans by TES are less crippling though, because even a 5-card hand could be strong enough to win.

    The only things I see that Iggy Pop does better is mana stability and a clear goal to winning. The first one doesn't really matter when all TES needs theoretically is 1 land, and the second one isn't really a big one becuase having more ways to win than chaining IGG's into Tendrils is sometimes a boon.

    It's just that TES takes so much more THINKING to play so less people are picking it up.

  19. #19

    Re: [Discussion] TES vs. IGGy Pop - Which deck is stronger?

    I've played both decks extensively and the argument that TES only needs 1 land to win is kinda silly. Iggy Pop can do it on 1 land just as easily. Common examples are:

    land, dark rit/lotus petal, led, led, infernal tutor
    land, dark rit, cabal rit/dark rit/lotus petal, infernal tutor, infernal tutor, led

    In versions modified to be less graveyard reliant, you can even do silly stuff like this:

    land, dark rit, dark rit, grim tutor, infernal tutor/led, led


    Iggy Pop, in a goldfish will win by turn 3 almost every hand. This is nearly the same as TES with one minor note: TES can fizzle/kill itself. Don't give me crap that it doesn't happen because I play the deck a lot and it simply does sometimes. A bad plunge or Diminishing Returns will happen once in awhile while Iggy Pop genuinely never has this problem.

    As far as I can tell, the only general problem Iggy Pop has is an inability to beat mage hate, which seems to be easily remedied by cutting maindeck leyline of the void for 4x grim tutor. Grim Tutor does everything that Leyline goes against aggro (nothing) while allowing you to randomly setup early wins, recover from bad situations as an extra tutor, find bounce spells faster vs aggro-control, and setup double tendrils vs control. Additionally, from testing, it seems that Iggy Pop really wants a 2nd bounce and more land.

    Notice that I don't consider Graveyard hate a problem with Iggy Pop. Played properly, Iggy Pop isn't graveyard reliant. Grim Tutor helps this significantly by letting you fetch more leds/dark rits as needed, but even standard builds can clumsily set up double tendrils by turns 5-6 if necessary.

    From my perspective, the main reason to play TES over Iggy Pop is that TES can play faster than Grim Tutor-infused Iggy Pop against aggro-control, although the 1-2 turn difference (I seem to go off around turn 3-5 against aggro-control) doesn't appear to affect much since I'm trying for 2 Tendrils and not a single one. Xantid Swarm is much better against Control than Grim Tutor is game 1, but Grim Tutor is a lot better for Iggy Pop against aggro and pure control (which is likely to have more low-cc removal available).

    See the Iggy Pop thread for more on my changes to Iggy Pop.
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  20. #20
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    Re: [Discussion] TES vs. IGGy Pop - Which deck is stronger?

    You're taking a pretty big assumption by even mentioning Grim Tutor, as you are the only person in the world using it in IGG right now. It's by no means the norm, nor has it been extensively tested by anyone other than you and maybe some of your teammates. The fact is, IGG is reliant on the yard, in almost every situation. It almost cannot win without Ill-Gotten Gains. This is not opinion, it's 100% truth.

    As for results, people, you have to remember that the card that broke TES wide open was Empty the Warrens, which was printed less than 6 months ago.

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