I'm curious as to what showings IGG has had recently, when not piloted by Mike Bomholt. I'm definately not claiming a "no one not named Gearhart can play Solidarity," but the question is a relevant one. Here's how I see the deck:
- You cannot win through your worst matchups (Thresh, Fish) without protection from another color.
- There is some debate as to what color to splash, those being white (Orim's chant) or green (Xantid Swarm).
- Either way, you have a difficult time winning through effects such as Tormod's Crypt and Meddling Mage.
- The answers for those cards are unweildy in any of the colors above.
Now, that being said (and little of it is debateable, although I'm sure many people will debate it anyway), The benefits of going 5 color are here:
- Access to red provides you with the following:
- A third Ritual effect in Rite of Flame
- Burning Wish, for access to outs and win conditions in game 1. (Effectively 4 more Tutors)
- Shattering Spree, an uncounterable out to Chalice
- Empty the Warrens, an extremely good card vs. your worst matchups, and a natural foil to Meddling Mage
At the cost of manabase stability. Note that this is really a non-issue, since your manabase moves toward a less resiliant one by including more duals for Chant/Swarm.
Moving toward a TES build rather than IGG-based provides:
- Less reliance on the graveyard. (you can still use it, but it isn't necessary)
- The number 10 is no longer the goal (Tendrils isn't your only win)
- Flexible sideboarding options (the best 5 colors can offer)
- Protection (MD Xantid)
I mean, I don't really understand the argument anymore. The benefits of moving to 5 color, getting rid of the yard dependancy, and gaining EtW seem overwhelming to me. They most certainly outweigh the few costs - No fetches for Brainstorm and Wasteland vulnerability. What am I not seeing?
Last edited by Nightmare; 02-23-2007 at 06:19 PM.
Very few people play this deck. The couple of times I've played I've made Top16 and narrowly missed Top8. As far as I know that's the best TES did this past weekend. This deck had 2 appearances in Top8 at Worlds one of which was not Mike Bomholt. Nassim Ketita also made Top16 at GP Philly.Originally Posted by Mr. Nightmare
well, Michael Morgran got 4th place in october at a dfd...and if i'm not mistaken I think iggy took 1st at a recent meandeck tourney...I think that it is a lack of good iggy players...personally a friend of mine took first in a local tourney a couple of weeks ago playing iggy pop, and also I know another dude playing iggy who also took first in a local tourney...if there were just as many good pilots playing iggy pop at a big event as the ammount of goblins, and thresh show up, i'm sure that there would deffinately be more t8 for iggy
1- well, the only reason TES does is because of ETW right? well iggy could run that too if wanted but it doesn't...people don't realize iggy is a different deck than TES...TES runs xantid right? whats wrong with protection from another color?
2- your point is?...you can go either way if wanted...its just preference and meta call...(or cost orims vs xantid...)
3- its not too hard...most of the time all you need is one bounce spell or so
1- true, but iggy can always go hurkuls or double tendrills as well
2- if you have iggy, 10 isn't really a problem
3- true, but the only color iggy is missing out on is red...
4- iggy runs maindeck protection as well (xantid,chant,leyline)
I'm not really trying to bash TES or anything but it souns like you are saying iggy is strictly inferior to TES...well, why don't TES players just play solidarity? The reason is because they are different decks and have different benefits and weaknesses. while TES has a lot of benefits that iggy pop doesn't, it is not strictly superior in every way...
Lukatron, I'll do my best to discuss your post, but in the future I plan to ignore them if you can't do us all the common decency of using the shift key and a bit of grammar.
The first place finish at the Meandeck Open was Bomholt. This is specifically why I asked the question. It wasn't a knock to the deck, I haven't seen many results and wanted to know if a lot of people are still playing it. There's no reason to attack the question, I'm looking for data.
Again, no argument necessary here, these are observations, not detriments to the deck. There is no perfect deck out there, so I'm not entirely sure why you take so much offense.
- Hurkyl's is much less of a strategy when you don't have Chrome Mox as an additional string of spells. Often that plan must come online to circumvent Meddling Mage or other threats, and it's a difficult plan to win with. The Double Tendrils plan takes a lot to set up, although it is more effective than Hurkyls.
- What happens when you don't have access to your graveyard?
- If you're already in 4 colors, again, the benefits of moving all the way into 5 are much more than the potential detriments.
- Leyline is not protection. Leyline does not stop Force of Will, or Stifle, or Meddling Mage. Leyline is great when your opponent already doesn't have Force, or when you can bait the Force, but either way it's win-more. the other two are relevant, but there's still no concensus about what to run.
Here it is. Quote me if you want. TES is strictly superior to IGGy Pop. I see no reason to play IGGy over TES in any metagame. I'm looking for a solid reason why that statement is incorrect.
If you want to parallel tutors, I would not consider Mystical in that parallel, because it cannot (on it's own) put a card in your hand. While it is excellent as an endstep play or during your upkeep, it costs you a draw step to utilize it, something that none of TES's tutors do. As a comparison to Intuition, both Int. and BWish have drawbacks, although they are slight, but Burning Wish's flexibility wins out in my opinion. Note that any spell you would want to tutor for in the MD can be wished for in the board, with the exception of a mana source, although with 4 additional ritual effects and 4 Chrome Moxen, this is a relatively weak play anyway. You'll never need to go through the IGG loop more than once, as your gameplan doesn't revolve around the IGG loop to begin with. While the BWish->IGG play leaves you without a tutor in the yard, very rarely has that scenario come up. Additionally, if you can go Bwish->IGG, you can go BWish->EtW, which is a stronger play vs. your worst matchups anyway, and to have 6 mana means you've already played at least 1-2 ritual effects for storm. As for DReturns, every one of your lands save 1 produces U, as do Lotus Petal and potentially Chrome Mox. UU is very rarely a problem.
Plunge into Drakness is an incredibly versatile spell. It actually entwines or uses the other ability occasionally, to help alleviate that life loss you refer to. There have been many times where I EtW for 6 or so, get in a few swings, and sac+Impulse with damage on the stack. It also puts a card in your hand, without costing a draw spell/step.
I didn't brush it off, I freely admit that the deck is vulnerable to Wasteland. What I deny is the relevance of that in today's metagame. If goblins (the only relevant deck that runs wasteland) wastes my land, its tempo they don't utilize dropping dudes on my head. They also don't play Daze or Force, which allows me more comfort in winning without land (something I'm sure you realize this deck and IGG can do). Beyond that, I didn't say IGG has the same vulnerablity to waste, I said it has more than the 2c build did, since it opened its manabase up to a 3rd color.
That whole paragraph can be translated to "Although it is a difficult thing to do, IGG can win through graveyard hate. TES does it better, though." I'm not being arrogant, that's really what you said. Your MD bounce spell costs 1UU to use, when you need 6+ mana just to get your combo online to beginwith. I'm not saying it can't be done, but it's much easier just to pay RR to Spree it, or win around it with EtW.
I addressed this issue above. Spring Tide is a fundamentally inferior strategy to Solidarity - very significant detriments to the deck are traded for marginal benefits. In my eyes, IGGy Pop is the Spring Tide, not TES. You've garnered yourself a more stable manabase, in exchange for vulnerability to counterspells and grave hate, sacrificing EtW, and being about a turn slower on average.
Actually thats not what I said, if you read my post again you will see that I said its a "not hard at all" thing to do not a "difficult thing to do"
Fine. It isn't difficult. It isn't fast, either. Every turn it takes you to set up your win properly - either with Double Tendrils or Wipe - which means you 1) Draw into two of a 3 of, 2) Mystical for Tendrils taking at least 2 turns to do so, or 3) Mystical for Wipe Away taking at least 2 turns to do so; gives your opponent more time to find ways to beat you/stop you. Let me give you an example:
Turn 1, your opponent goes Tormod's Crypt, Polluted Delta, go. (I realize that pre-board, this is unlikely at best. My point is, this is a significant problem for IGG). You now have to deal with that before you go off. Your options are: Turn 1, land, go, Mystical for Wipe on end step, turn 2 Petal Land Wipe attempt to win. Turn 1 land Go, EOT Mystical for Tendrils, attempt to win through Crypt before opponent can solidify his disruption base.
Neither of these options leave you much wiggle room. They also fold to Force on an accelleration piece. The deck has a hard enough time winning turn 1-2 without disruption, it can't get easier when you throw a 1UU spell in the mix.
Turn 1, your opponent goes Tundra, Mother of Runes. Turn 2, Meddling Mage on Ill-Gotten Gains. You now have the same 2 outs as before, being Wipe Away or double Tendrils. If you Mystical, Mom activates during your upkeep to buy a turn, possibly enough for a second Mage or a cantrip into Stifle/Force. You still need at least 2 land drops to cast Wipe, unless you want to Petal it out, which wastes Storm and a card in hand, plus opens you up to counterspell disruption.
Your entire protection scheme revolves around your ability to draw a 1-of, and/or a double tendrils plan. Both of those are sketchy at best, and extremely tough to do under a clock (say, Jotun Grunt).
Now ask, What does TES do in those situations?
Example 1, they laugh at Crypt and win anyway (or EtW for 6 and win in 2 turns)
Example 2, they laugh at Mage and win anyway (or EtW for 6 and win in 2 turns)
Quote:
Originally Posted by lukatron2
I'm not really trying to bash TES or anything but it souns like you are saying iggy is strictly inferior to TES...well, why don't TES players just play solidarity? The reason is because they are different decks and have different benefits and weaknesses. while TES has a lot of benefits that iggy pop doesn't, it is not strictly superior in every way...
Turn 5/6? Why are you playing Iggy Pop winning turns 5/6 ? TES is actually turn 2-3 consistent. That’s the reason to run TES over Iggy/Solidarity.
Come on now...That is a totally bias statement to claim that Iggy goes off turn 5/6 consistently...try 2-4...Also solidarity can consistently go off on turn 4-5...
Adding red gives you one card that is very good Empty the Warrens. The rest of what you listed I really think is very debatable.
Burning wish does not give you four more tutors in TES because TES doesn't run mystical or intuition instead it runs burning wish and plunge into darkness. So saying that adding red gives you more tutors is not valid at all.
Burning wish does give you access to cards from your sideboard and RFG zone, that is a valid arguement.
Essentially burning wish is run in the place of intuition. Both cards have different roles. Intuition lets you fetch maindeck cards and also fills your graveyard giving it inherent synergy with IGG and Cabal Ritual, and is also instant speed letting you play it on your opponents turn, but it does cost three mana. Burning wish costs two and lets you fetch non maindeck cards. This is good for fetching answers, but not as good for getting threats. If you fetch IGG with burning wish then you don't have a tutor in your yard to fetch up tendrils/warrens, and you don't have anymore iggs in the yard to continue the loop. If you fetch Diminishing returns with burning wish then you pretty much have to have LED in order to pay the UU in its cost.
Plunge into darkness seems terrible to me, you replace the consistency and efficiency of mytical tutor with a black impulse that costs you life(compounded with city of brass this really does matter).
You brush off the mana base issue wich is the biggest weakness that TES has. It runs an entirely wasteable manabase. Saying that splashing in iggy makes the manabase just as vulnerable is just wrong, you still have 8 fetches and basic lands in the deck even when you add one or two off color duals to support xantid/chant or whatever protection you decide to run.
Yes iggy pop is more reliant on the graveyard, its main path to victory is a recursion combo, but it can and does win without access to its graveyard, simple tutor chains and double tendrils plays are not hard at all when you run 3x tendrils and 12 tutors, you also have easy access(via mystical tutor) to uncounterable maindeck bounce and a whole slew of cards in the sideboard to deal with permanent hate. TES has access to these tools as well, and runs burning wish to have game one access to some of the sideboard options.
I am supprised you brought up the performance issue, I think it is another big strike against TES, considering the only relevant success it has had was at a 50 man tournament without a top 8 in europe.
All in all these two decks are very different storm decks with their own advantages and disadvantages, this is why I made the original post. Its like somebody going to every thread about solidarity saying "just play spring tide its faster and can run sorceries"
Local tournaments don’t mean a thing. I’ve been wrecking the local metagame every time I play, so what. You can’t blame poor results due to bad players, unless you were at every event watching every Ill-Gotten Gains player.
Wrong, ETW is an advantage. The main reasons to run red are Rite of Flame (way better than Cabal Ritual) and Burning Wish. You just used Xantid as a difference between the two decks in one of the next quotes, then just used Xantid in Iggy’s defense. Choose one. Orim’s Chant makes you even slower, I don’t understand how you could want to slow down a deck that is already a consistent turn 4 win to a 5/6.
Turn 5/6? Why are you playing Iggy Pop winning turns 5/6 ? TES is actually turn 2-3 consistent. That’s the reason to run TES over Iggy/Solidarity.
1.) That takes time, you don’t want to give Threshold time to find more mages and/or stifle.
2.) True, however, ETW allows you to be faster and not need the magic number 6 for mana.
3.) So why not go 5 color?
4.) Leyline is not protection, for the life of me I will argue this until the day I die.
True, we have the same amount of tutors but TES’s tutors are stronger.
Agreed.Burning wish does give you access to cards from your sideboard and RFG zone, that is a valid arguement.
Understandable on Burning Wish Vs Intuition on roles. Burning Wish fetches Ill-Gotten Gains a lot, just because you fetch Igg doesn’t mean you haven’t discarded/played a different tutor effect (Wish, IT, Plunge). TES doesn’t want or need a loop, you need one Ill-Gotten Gains to win the game, not two. One Igg will raise the storm high enough to win. You don’t have to have LED to cast Diminishing Returns, the mana base in TES is 5c for a reason, not to mention Lotus Petals.Essentially burning wish is run in the place of intuition. Both cards have different roles. Intuition lets you fetch maindeck cards and also fills your graveyard giving it inherent synergy with IGG and Cabal Ritual, and is also instant speed letting you play it on your opponents turn, but it does cost three mana. Burning wish costs two and lets you fetch non maindeck cards. This is good for fetching answers, but not as good for getting threats. If you fetch IGG with burning wish then you don't have a tutor in your yard to fetch up tendrils/warrens, and you don't have anymore iggs in the yard to continue the loop. If you fetch Diminishing returns with burning wish then you pretty much have to have LED in order to pay the UU in its cost.
It’s fairly obvious you never gave the card a chance, first off it gives you the card now. TES is rather redundant with cards and what they do so finding what you need is rather easy. Plunge into Darkness doesn’t lose to predict, it also doesn’t lose to waiting a turn. Life doesn’t matter when you are winning.Plunge into darkness seems terrible to me, you replace the consistency and efficiency of mytical tutor with a black impulse that costs you life(compounded with city of brass this really does matter).
TES’s mana base being vulnerable is rather irrelevant when you play 8 artifact mana spells to get you going, also when keeping a hand weak to wasteland (hardly ever happens) hold the land it’s simple.You brush off the mana base issue wich is the biggest weakness that TES has. It runs an entirely wasteable manabase. Saying that splashing in iggy makes the manabase just as vulnerable is just wrong, you still have 8 fetches and basic lands in the deck even when you add one or two off color duals to support xantid/chant or whatever protection you decide to run.
Being reliant on the graveyard makes you weak and vulnerable, even more than playing non-basics. As I’ve said before finding your 3cc card to get around Meddling Mage takes time in which they’ll find another Meddling Mage and/or stifle.Yes iggy pop is more reliant on the graveyard, its main path to victory is a recursion combo, but it can and does win without access to its graveyard, simple tutor chains and double tendrils plays are not hard at all when you run 3x tendrils and 12 tutors, you also have easy access(via mystical tutor) to uncounterable maindeck bounce and a whole slew of cards in the sideboard to deal with permanent hate. TES has access to these tools as well, and runs burning wish to have game one access to some of the sideboard options.
TES is still a fairly new deck and hasn’t had many opportunities to put up results.I am supprised you brought up the performance issue, I think it is another big strike against TES, considering the only relevant success it has had was at a 50 man tournament without a top 8 in europe.
There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)
