How is Iggy Pop reliant on the graveyard? Even without Grim Tutor, you have 4 mystical tutor, 4 brainstorm (+ 8 fetches), 4 infernal tutor, 4 tendrils, and 4 intuition to setup double tendrils with a storm of 3-4 (depending on fetches) for the first. This is easily accomplished. If you have have extra mana, you can even filter Infernal Tutors into Infernal Tutors, much as you use Burning Wish to wish for Burning wish to build storm count sometimes with TES.
BZK! - Storm Boards
Been there, tried that, still casting Doomsday.
Drawing my deck for 0 mana since 2013.
I'm curious as to what showings TES has had recently, when not piloted by Fischer, Florian. I'm definately not claiming a "no one not named Gearhart can play Solidarity," but the question is a relevant one.
It seems the arguement is that TES is faster and has EtW but Iggy is more consistant and inevitable. I like to win fast but I like feeling safe with a combo deck even more. Why dont we just add empty the warrens to Iggy? The deck already plays mystic fuckin tutor and LED. So you probably wont even need to add a red dual.
Oh and its bullshit that Iggy cant win without Ill Gotten Gains. You actually side 3 out (leaving one as a tutor target) against anything playing lots of counter. The deck is more than capable of just going into a lethal tendrils, especially when it sides in Dark Confidants.
Now playing real formats.
What if after you FoW my first Swarm, I play another and proceed to win? I mean as long as we're describing god hand scenarios here, why stop there? Arguing that, "Well, that's true, but I could also have every perfect answer to TES starting on turn 1." isn't a valid argument.
Why don't you just play Solidarity? Just kiddin'Originally Posted by bane_of_the_living
Originally Posted by Jack Burton
If you'll notice the deck has only really been around in it's viable form for only a few month. It's still a baby. We've also only had 1 maybe 2 major tournaments during this span. Claiming, "well it hasn't done anything" isn't valid at this stage in the game. You need to for the skeptics to shut up and other people to catch on in order for it to produce showing that decks like other major decks of legacy have, and all of that takes more than a few months
Si, I like cereal.
Well... if you look at it like this, TES still needs the respect it deserves. The one thing people dont understand about TES is that it's fast because of the many card selections it can choose from when it combos off. Unlike IGG, sometimes certain set-ups are still premature (like the IGG loop), so it decides to go for something better for that point in time (Diminishing Returns). This is one of those decks that can kill you fast if you dont mull into an early FoW. You FoW their first turn Xantid Swarm, you gave them an oppurtunity to go off 2nd turn. That is how powerful TES is.
I apologize for my teammate Luke for not seeing TES as a strong deck. It may take a long time for many to see how strong this deck can be.
ICBE - We're totally the coolest Anti-Thesis ever.
"The Citrus-God just had a Citrus-Supernova... in your mouth."
Honestly a large boon for TES is The Epic Syndicate pushing it all over The Source. We all know Iggy was developed on the mana drain, a rival site. Its sitting in their DTB forum and it didnt even have a thread here on The Source till I created one. (Gee Golden Grahams too!) You cant claim TES didnt become viable till EtW came out because Tendrils combo has existed for years now. Wastedlife added the newest red cards and claimed ownership over the archetype. Now, Iggy has been around for at least 2 years. Its had little to no support from The Source yet its performed above its expectations at many events. The fact that TES has only been in its present form for months doesnt seem relivant to this discussion. Its been around in many different forms (Nausea, Contract Tendrils) and adding a few new cards usually doesnt change things completely. EtW may have opened some windows for storm combo, but lets not forget Iggy could adapt this change as well. Something I already mentioned. The best build of tendrils has already been created, and it holds its own against all the aforementioned hate cards. So it looks like its just Iggy's graveyard use vs. TES's chance of janky comboing. Personally I choice the deck that doesnt bastardize its sb.
Now playing real formats.
Shut up melvin, If you read opening post on page one, you can tell that I was simply quoting someone elses exact words but replacing "Iggy Pop" with "TES" and "Mike Bomholt" with "Floriann Fischer" in order to make the point that it was a stupid comment for that person (Mr. Nightmare) to bring up because you can say the same about TES.
I never said TES isn't a strong, I happen to think that it is FYI, but I'm just trying to argue in Iggy's defense because there are a couple of people who seem to think that it is strictly crappier than TES in every way when in actuality that is not the case...
TEAM DRAGONFORCIA-
Ghost ridin' the whip like we invented that shit.
TEAM UNICORN
We're going for number four!
.... 'Cept that TES can deal with hate much easier than IGGy can because of MD Xantid Swarm, ETW, and Burning Wish for SB answers. So this brings us back to the question of why would anyone play IGGy when TES is faster and can more easily answer hate?
Kronicler
Team Info-Ninjas: Catchphrases so secret, I don't even know what they are!
Iggy Pop was developed by Mike Bomholt of Team Meandeck and posted on The Mana Drain.
I can create threads too.
TES wasn't viable until Empty the Warrens was printed. "Tendrils combo" isn't exactly an archetype. There are many ways to implement a kill with Tendrils of Agony. There is no question that TES borrowed a lot from Iggy Pop. That is why there is debate over which is stronger. Wastedlife does have ownership over the archetype.
Pikula decks splashed red over white and you had a brand new archetype. One that played completely differently from its' predecessor. Changing a few cards will completely change the way a deck is played and its' match ups. Nausea? Seriously? Why do people even bring up that deck as if it was ever a real deck? The same goes for Contract Tendrils, but seriously, Nausea?
This is an incomplete sentence. Why did you mention Nausea?
Not to get technical, but this is a mathematical impossibility. BTW, Nausea wasn't even close to the best build. In fact I don't think that deck ever won a single game of tournament magic.
Personally, discussions like these are pointless. I seriously can't stop laughing about Nausea being brought into a supposedly meaningful discussion.
There was a time in Rath/Urza's T2 when Bargain was the best deck in the format. But, being hard to play, people generally chose Replenish as the combo deck to play.
Ease of play, or 'laziness' as you call it, is a big factor when choosing decks.
(And please, no one give me any that 'this is the deck for skilled players' bullshit.)
I'm glad to see this discussion being taken seriously. I wasn't kidding when i said I think this is one of the bigger questions in the upper-tiers of the format, and I'm glad that even if people don't agree, they are willing to take the discussion seriously.
IGGy Pop did have a thread here. It was part of the site that got archived, and as it had seen no activity in more than 3 months, it didn't get brought back. It recieved much more attention on The Mana Drain, where it's creator and most prominent players frequent. I'm not sure what your accusatory tone is supposed to imply, but I do know that I don't appreciate it. Of course our team will support the deck we created. We feel it's one of the best decks in the format. Until other people play it (which won't happen if we don't discuss it) we can't be taken seriously in such a bold claim.
Golden Grahms is a modification of a deck built on The Source by Rag Man, called The Game. The discussion of Slavagers Game is inside that thread for the most part. Again, you should make sure to get your facts straight before making unfounded claims.(Gee Golden Grahams too!)
EtW made this deck viable. That's the long and the short of it. No Tendrils Combo deck before this one had access to two separate win conditions with the Storm Mechanic that were as powerful as Tendrils and EtW. Yes, combo has existed for years. In no format before this has it had access to 4 Burning Wish, 4 LED, 4 Lotus Petal, 4 Infernal Tutor, and 2 separate 4 mana storm win conditions. This is a new deck, and Wastedlife is it's creator. Of course he claims ownership on this archetype.You cant claim TES didnt become viable till EtW came out because Tendrils combo has existed for years now. Wastedlife added the newest red cards and claimed ownership over the archetype.
That's great for IGGy and it's players. How does that have anything to do with the statement "Given the time IGG has had, I believe TES will equal IGG in performance, or outperform IGG."Now, Iggy has been around for at least 2 years. Its had little to no support from The Source yet its performed above its expectations at many events. The fact that TES has only been in its present form for months doesnt seem relivant to this discussion. Its been around in many different forms (Nausea, Contract Tendrils) and adding a few new cards usually doesnt change things completely.
Contract Tendrils is about 10x closer to being IGGy Pop than it is to being TES. Nausea sucked, and was closer to belcher than anything else. Please do some research.
Do you read what you write before you hit the post button? You should consider it. You "choice" the deck? Way to go. As for the content, my entire point is that IGGy has now jumped to a third color for protection. To do so, it destabalized its manabase (to what degree is arguable). If they choose to adapt to utilize EtW, they will be an inferior version of TES, so why wouldn't you play TES instead? The question has never been if they "could" splash red, it's if they "should." Red offers a million benefits between EtW and Burning Wish/targets, it seems silly to me not to take advantage of them.EtW may have opened some windows for storm combo, but lets not forget Iggy could adapt this change as well. Something I already mentioned. The best build of tendrils has already been created, and it holds its own against all the aforementioned hate cards. So it looks like its just Iggy's graveyard use vs. TES's chance of janky comboing. Personally I choice the deck that doesnt bastardize its sb.
I would like to give my take on the argument of TES vs. Iggy Pop. I would like to start off by saying TES is an interesting combo deck that will do decent at Legacy events in the future, but Iggy Pop is clearly the more consistent combo deck.
The most updated version of Iggy Pop has included splashing white main deck for access to Orim's Chant in the board, which is something that is needed for its harder matchups with control archetypes.
A lot of folks don't understand the power of Leyline of the Void until they start playtesting matchups and realizing how good the card is in the deck. The average turn that Iggy Pop can win is 2.5, which is very fast in terms of raw power.
I'm not an expect on the TES archetype, but it lacks the consistency that Iggy Pop brings to the table.
If you want a good idea on which deck will do better, then be prepared for GP Columbus, because a lot of players will bring Iggy Pop including a lot of pros.
The statement above is pretty funny, because there is no way that TES will ever equal Iggy Pop in performance in big main stream Legacy events.
~Shriek~
Have you ever played with TES, or are you just assuming that it is inconsistent? What about IGGy Pop, are you just assuming that because it has t-8ed at a large tournament that it is super consistent? The two above statements are straight up incorrect, as TES is just as consistent as IGGy Pop.
Ok, sure, everyone loves mindtwisting their opponents, but in many recent builds that I have seen, leyline is replaced by orim's chant / xantid swarm as these cards actually help against IGGy's hard matchups, control. At times, the mindtwist play can be amazing and straight up win you the game, but it is usually just a cute trick, as if you can resolve an IGG, aka they have no counterspells, then you can usually just win the game anyway a turn or so later.
Once again, have you ever even played IGGy Pop? The average turn it wins in 3.5. I'm not really sure how you came up with 2.5 as even experts on the deck who play it all the time say that the average combo turn for iggy is 3.5.
Ok, this is just ignorant. Who are you to make this statement? How do you know that TES won't ever do as well as IGGy has done? If anything TES is poised to do better because it is less vulnerable to combo hate and has a much better game against any control decks. Completely unsupported ignorant broad generalizations like this really piss me off.
Kronicler
Team Info-Ninjas: Catchphrases so secret, I don't even know what they are!
I'm not quite sure why you have to verbally assault me for making my opinions know on the debate of TES vs. Iggy Pop. Wasn't this form created for the vary reason of stating someone's opinion. If you don't agree than just say so, you don't have to personally attack me over it.
I will admit, I haven't played TES before. I have however played Iggy Pop quite a few times and know its strength and weaknesses. That is the very reason why I believe its more resilient to hate.
I get the feeling that you think TES is the best combo deck in the format and there is nothing to change your opinion. Thats fine, but you would sound more intelligent if you could give me scenarios that would prove your point instead of these personal attacks.
~Shriek~
Nick, I know you've played iggy Pop before, as you know I have. In fact, I was the first person in our meta to win with the deck. You also must know that out of our local people, it's a toss up between me and herbig as to who has the most experience overall playing combo in general. Both of us, Herbig and myself, have worked on creating this deck and both of us feel like it has more potential than Iggy-Pop. That should say something to you.
By your own admission, you've never played TES. Perhaps it's you who should take some time to learn the deck's strengths and weaknesses before expressing an opinion based on conjecture and feelings.
There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)