[Discussion] TES vs. IGGy Pop - Which deck is stronger?

[Zilla]

That is the very reason why I believe its more resilient to hate.

How can you possibly conclude that one deck is more resilient than another when you've only played one of the two decks you're comparing?

This is like saying, "I have never tried an orange, but I eat apples all the time so I know for a fact they taste better than oranges." It's totally nonsensical.

[Citrus-God]

Shut up melvin, If you read opening post on page one, you can tell that I was simply quoting someone elses exact words but replacing "Iggy Pop" with "TES" and "Mike Bomholt" with "Floriann Fischer" in order to make the point that it was a stupid comment for that person (Mr. Nightmare) to bring up because you can say the same about TES.

I never said TES isn't a strong, I happen to think that it is FYI, but I'm just trying to argue in Iggy's defense because there are a couple of people who seem to think that it is strictly crappier than TES in every way when in actuality that is not the case...

IGGy-Pop is a good deck, but I still think it needs more flexibility. Then again, because of IGGy's consistence, it wins through more hate like Outsideangel said. Of course, TES wins through hate as well, just like IGGy, but much better. IGGy Pop is probably better against decks like Homebrew and Red Death, IMO, but TES is better against decks like Fish and Threshold.

[thebadmagicplayer]

we'll all probably have a more definitive answer after GP Colombus, so till then or some high profile legacy tournament sooner, this thread is a little premature to be able to asess the potential of the two decks ageinst one another. so till then...

[Shriekmaw]

Nick, I know you've played iggy Pop before, as you know I have. In fact, I was the first person in our meta to win with the deck. You also must know that out of our local people, it's a toss up between me and herbig as to who has the most experience overall playing combo in general. Both of us, Herbig and myself, have worked on creating this deck and both of us feel like it has more potential than Iggy-Pop. That should say something to you.

By your own admission, you've never played TES. Perhaps it's you who should take some time to learn the deck's strengths and weaknesses before expressing an opinion based on conjecture and feelings.

Adam, your right about yourself and Herbig being more experienced when it comes to combo decks in Legacy. I'm not trying a to take any credit away from anybody and maybe I do need to look into TES a bit more. I'm just taking my past experiences from combo decks in the past mostly through my experiences with standard and extended.

I do believe this discussion about which deck is better is a little early since TES hasn't really had the opportunity to post results in large tournaments as of yet. We also have to consider which region Legacy tournaments are held in, because up here in the northeast Iggy Pop isn't that popular, but if you travel to the Ohio region where the GP will be located Iggy Pop will be very big.

I'll be looking forward in seeing results posted by TES and I'll be also looking forward in playing against the deck.

[Zilla]

I do believe this discussion about which deck is better is a little early since TES hasn't really had the opportunity to post results in large tournaments as of yet.

This isn't quite accurate. It took first place at a large, competitive tournament in Germany earlier this year. Obviously it needs more placings before it could be called a trend, but the deck has placed at a large tournament.

[Bane of the Living]

I'm not sure what your accusatory tone is supposed to imply, but I do know that I don't appreciate it. Of course our team will support the deck we created. We feel it's one of the best decks in the format. Until other people play it (which won't happen if we don't discuss it) we can't be taken seriously in such a bold claim.
Golden Grahms is a modification of a deck built on The Source by Rag Man, called The Game. The discussion of Slavagers Game is inside that thread for the most part. Again, you should make sure to get your facts straight before making unfounded claims.

In no format before this has it had access to 4 Burning Wish, 4 LED, 4 Lotus Petal, 4 Infernal Tutor, and 2 separate 4 mana storm win conditions. This is a new deck, and Wastedlife is it's creator. Of course he claims ownership on this archetype.

Do you read what you write before you hit the post button? You should consider it. You "choice" the deck? Way to go. As for the content, my entire point is that IGGy has now jumped to a third color for protection. To do so, it destabalized its manabase (to what degree is arguable). If they choose to adapt to utilize EtW, they will be an inferior version of TES, so why wouldn't you play TES instead? The question has never been if they "could" splash red, it's if they "should." Red offers a million benefits between EtW and Burning Wish/targets, it seems silly to me not to take advantage of them.

Why do you really need to reply in such a bantering tone? "Do I read what I write before I hit post?" OMG my terrible grammer!!!

Let me start off by clearing things up.. Although this discussion has some merit, my point is The Source, and moreso the EPIC Syndicate, is being very pushy about their new pet deck. The tendrils deck already in our upper tier is Iggy Pop, I wasnt refering to Nausea there. I was referring to Nausea when comparing the Tendrils decks already created. You arent creating a new deck because you added the newest cards to come out. Sorry to piss in your cornflakes. As far as Im concerned, TES IS an updated version of Nausea, the cornerstone for both TES and Iggy. It took out the shitty Helms for the newest Rite of Flames, and added the much needed Empty the Warrens. You alter the egg count since your not running helm and look, your playing TES now!! Wastedlife can claim ownership, I dont give a rats behind, and didnt express such a behind either.

When I refered to Golden Grahams and Iggy on The Mana Drain, I was implying that a rival site is obviously pushing decks they personally see to have caliber. They do. The difference between what The Source considers a DTB and The Mana Drain dumbfounds me. Your doing the same thing here with TES. It took the deck like a week to move from N&D to Open, and its had only one strong showing across the globe. Whatever, I think the deck belongs there. I think it has very obvious benifits over IGGy, and vise versa. But when you decide to say "IM MR NIGHTMARE AND I KNOW IGGY POP IS STRICTLY INFERIOR TO MY TEAMS NEW DECK".. Prepare to get steamrolled by disbelief. Iggy has shown numbers, your deck hasnt. Fix that and Im sure you'll see a change in opinion.

@Herbig
You did alot of typing to make not a single effing point. Something about. Incomplete sentences. If you were refering to Deadguy and Red Death, the decks strategies are completely different because your tuning the deck more aggro as the death. Nausea(or other tendrils) adding Rite of Flame and Empty the Warrens does keep it the same deck. It does play the same way. The deck is simply adding the best cards that come out as they come out, keeping the same strategy of build storm and kill the opponent as quick as possible.

Look we can make a little table so we can do this openly and easily. If anyone wants to argue anything here please do. Lets keep this list updated.

Iggy Pop
- Relies on graveyard abuse
- A full turn slower
+ Better against attrition matches
+ Leyline strengths
+ Mindtwist
+ More consistant combo engine
+ 15 card SB
+ Plenty of basic lands

TES
- No basic lands
- Worse against discard w/ clock
- Limited SB space
+ A turn faster
+ Doesnt need graveyard
+ Wishboard for utility
+ Xantid Swarm

Well both have the edge with whatever card theyre playing for protection, whether it be iggy's xantids, chants, or leyline. Or TES's Xantids. I dont see why Mr Nightmare thinks splashing a third color to play Orims Chant is so terrible when TES is playing all five magically gathering colors. Iggy can play around Wasteland, and TES cant. Iggy is better against attrition and TES is better against control. Iggy is reliant on the yard, TES is reliant on playing perfectly.

I see Iggy's fail safe combo engine, and full 15 card SB as its biggest strengths. For TES all I see is a turn shaved off your kill. You can argue Xantids if you want but Iggy can play them. TES has that great burning wish but like I said, at the cost of sb slots. Theres no doubt the two are close in the power of their performance, but I think its about preference. Yes most people prefer to think a bit less for 5-8 rounds of a tourny and play Iggy. TES is harder to play and easier to fuck up with. People dont like that much. Discussion on the list of possitives and negatives?

If I made any grammer/spelling mistakes make sure and throw it in my face and make a large deal out of it.

Again, Im not hammering on Wastedlife in any way for designing and promoting a great powerfull deck.

why don't we tone the hostility down just a notch---frogboy

By the way, folks, comments/questions/concerns regarding N&D and Open status are best directed towards GodzillA and not the site at large, because we don't actively go looking for these things until they're brought to our attention.

Also, I'm not really sure what the deal with intersite rivalry is, but, like, really, let's have a little maturity going.

[blarknob]

mtgthesource.com

[Kronicler]

mtgthesource.com

what?!?!

[Bryant Cook]

I'm going to be the bigger man and not flame back and/or slander.

There are many differences between TES and Nausea, so I suggest you retract your statement. Nausea plays horrible cards such as Eggs, Helm of Awakening, Spoils of the Vault, no protection and a different manabase. TES, has much stronger cards such as Plunge into Darkness, Rite of Flame, Empty the Warrens, Xantid Swarm and more efficient manabase. In Vintage, decks and differences can be determined by as few as 13 cards or less. I see no reason why that rule/ way to look at decks doesn't work here in Legacy. Those 13 cards changes the way a deck plays and the archetype of the deck, I'd recommend that you look into arguments and do some research before you make assumptions about decks. There's a significant difference between Nausea and The EPIC Storm if you care to continue this argument carry it on in another thread, it is not appropriate here in a TES vs. Iggy Pop thread.

If there is a feud between The Mana Drain and the Source that's fine; it has no place in this thread and shouldn't change or determine which deck is better. The fact no one decided to create a thread on either deck (Iggy or SGame) doesn't mean the source doesn't like The Mana Drain it means that people didn't express interest in the deck. Don't blame the mods or admins for other people's interest or what they care about. Also, last time I knew there was no rule on any forum/board that says I can't promote a deck I put my hard work, time, and effort into just to have it dismissed. Because people haven't tested or put their time into testing.

You seemed to leave out a lot of disadvantages that were previously mentioned in the thread against Iggy Pop. I'm not going to repost everything since it's already in the thread; however, it's something you should've looked into.

Who says TES can't dodge wasteland? If you fear wasteland hold it in your hand until you draw another one or until you feel safe to combo. Also, Undiscovered Paradise dodges wasteland, play a spell, such as Xantid and hold the land until you feel safe to combo.

Is being a good player too much to ask? Really? You say TES's downfall is that you have to play it perfectly, why should that be a disadvantage? If you can't comprehend a deck, practice until you get it, or even taking the time to test and learn the deck, don't discredit it for your laziness.

Since when was having a wishboard a huge disadvantage? It allows an out game one and I still have a SB to side things in. How many times do people not use X cards in their SB in a tournament? I for one rarely use every card in my sideboard in a tournament when not playing a wishboard.

[Xero]

I don't really want to get involved with this, but... I have to say, Undiscovered Paradise doesn't really beat Wasteland. For example; You play Paradise. On my turn, I waste it.

[Kronicler]

Yeah, I think people are a little confused about how undiscovered paradise works. Oracle wording:

Tap: Add one mana of any color to your mana pool. During your next untap step, as you untap your permanents, return Undiscovered Paradise to its owner's hand.

So it doesn't interfere with infernal tutor hellbent, but it is completely wasteable as well.

Kronicler

[Lego]

I don't really want to get involved with this, but... I have to say, Undiscovered Paradise doesn't really beat Wasteland. For example; You play Paradise. On my turn, I waste it.

Wastedlife knows how Undiscovered Paradise works. He meant it in a more general sense. You can play Xantid Swarm, and the following turn pick up the Paradise. Often a deck will need to use early Waste for mana, or they'll simply not draw it until a bit later. Paradise stays in your hand until you're ready to combo off. It's not an ideal answer to Wasteland, but that's okay because it was just one of the answers he listed. Tight play is your best aswer to Wasteland, and that's a perfectly fine answer. You play 11 land, and need one to combo off.

[Nightmare]

There is no feud between TMD and the Source. I have no idea where you're getting that from.

I've already made a point to make clear and concise arguments refuting the points or supporting the counterclaims to everything Bane_of_the_Living has said. I don't feel the need to restate them. Since you (BotL) feel the need to flame me, wastedlife, my team, and this site for proposing that this deck MAY (and in my opinion does) have more power than an established deck with similar gameplan, perhaps I should leave it at that.

[outsideangel]

Don't "Which is Better" threads always turn out well? Seriously, the decks are different.

If'in you really, really, really want to see which deck is better, then just wait. If TES is better than Iggy, we'll all see it eventually. It will gradually begin to supplant Iggy and place at major tournaments. On the other hand, if Iggy is better, TES will become "just a fad" and people will eventually drop it.

The only other way is testing. Find a disinterested party and have them test, say, a hundred games pre-board and a hundred games post-board against the most powerful, popular, and prevalent decks in Legacy. Can't argue with hard data.

Either way, all we're doing now is conjecture, lathered with a healthy dose of mudslinging, and the only thing that's changing people's minds on is just how respectable a community we are.




PS- On whether TES is "updated Nasuea": No, I don't believe that the deck is an updated or modified version of Nasuea. It most decidedly looks and plays like a legacy port of Long.dec. It's got the Wishes and LEDs and Rituals (plus the new one, Rite of Flame) and Ill-Gotten Gains is just a crappier Yawgmoth's Will. Infernal Tutor/Plunge replaces all the restricted Type 1 tutors/other nutty stuff like Recall, (plus Infernal hadn't been created then) and the manabase is less busted because it can't run the real So-Lo-Moxen, but can run 4x Chrome and Petal. Obviously, Legacy is a less powerful format than Type 1, so the deck is a little slower (turn 2-3 as compared to Long's 1-2) and a little more vulnerable, but that's probably how combo in this format is "supposed" to be, or how it ended up, anyway. Overall, I'd say it's probably one of the best and most faithful ports into this format in a long time.

[Nightmare]

I dont know why your saying that.. Just because this is the source doesnt mean your deck wont make it anywhere. Ive developed a deck that made it into the Open forums. You just need to come to a unified decklist and show some minor results.

[Bane of the Living]

There are many differences between TES and Nausea, so I suggest you retract your statement. Nausea plays horrible cards such as Eggs, Helm of Awakening, Spoils of the Vault, no protection and a different manabase. TES, has much stronger cards such as Plunge into Darkness, Rite of Flame, Empty the Warrens, Xantid Swarm and more efficient manabase. In Vintage, decks and differences can be determined by as few as 13 cards or less. I see no reason why that rule/ way to look at decks doesn't work here in Legacy. Those 13 cards changes the way a deck plays and the archetype of the deck, I'd recommend that you look into arguments and do some research before you make assumptions about decks. There's a significant difference between Nausea and The EPIC Storm if you care to continue this argument carry it on in another thread, it is not appropriate here in a TES vs. Iggy Pop thread.

Again, the reason I brought Nausea up in the first place was to somewhat claim this combo engine has been run in the past. You guys are saying the deck hasnt been around long enough to show up Iggy, but the deck in weaker obsolete forms has. Nausea was built with the same basic concepts, it was discarded when its inconsistancies reached a stalemate. It looks like adding the newest combo key pieces (RoF, EtW) truely does turn the turn 2 tendrils deck into a contender. I believe the deck at one point ran Plunge, it started playing IT when it was released, it had the burning wishes, and it eventually dropped the land grant gimmick to turn its manabase close to yours. Some people prefered Xantids in the maindeck even.. Congratulations, you've tuned the turn 2 tendrils deck very well. Its improved alot in the past year.

You seemed to leave out a lot of disadvantages that were previously mentioned in the thread against Iggy Pop. I'm not going to repost everything since it's already in the thread; however, it's something you should've looked into.

Who says TES can't dodge wasteland? If you fear wasteland hold it in your hand until you draw another one or until you feel safe to combo. Also, Undiscovered Paradise dodges wasteland, play a spell, such as Xantid and hold the land until you feel safe to combo.

If you wouldnt mind just copy paste the - & + list and lets keep track of these things. If thats what this discussion is for go on to discuss the other disadvantages.

I beat the deck with Ankh Sligh last night on MWS. TMNT was playing the deck, I dont know how skilled he was since he dropped LED and passed the turn at some point during a game. But I really sealed a game with CotV@0 and 2 consecutive wastelands. I would claim an entirely wastable manabase somewhat of a disadvantage. Im sure someone must agree?

Is being a good player too much to ask? Really? You say TES's downfall is that you have to play it perfectly, why should that be a disadvantage? If you can't comprehend a deck, practice until you get it, or even taking the time to test and learn the deck, don't discredit it for your laziness.

Since when was having a wishboard a huge disadvantage? It allows an out game one and I still have a SB to side things in. How many times do people not use X cards in their SB in a tournament? I for one rarely use every card in my sideboard in a tournament when not playing a wishboard.

I dont think thats a downfall at all, but I think it can be a problem when minor play mistakes cost combo the game. This is usually common when it comes to combo but TES is rather unforgiving. I do believe Iggy to be more forgiving to the common play mistakes. Some people are discouraged by decks that take 95% accuracy to play, some arent. Oh well thats how it goes.

Your point about sb cards is a good debate. But regardless, a wishboard hampers the room you have to metagame your deck. I see that as a small disadvantage, but I also see the deck having the utility answers game one as a benifit. How many non wish targets are you playing at the moment, 6?

There is no feud between TMD and the Source. I have no idea where you're getting that from.

I didnt say there was a feud but I can notice a lack of promotion for both decks I mentioned developed on TMD. Its been that way for awhile. While it is up to each individual's preference on what to play and discuss its easy to see that the decks legacy adepts are 'into' are the ones put on a pedestal. This has been such a case.

I've already made a point to make clear and concise arguments refuting the points or supporting the counterclaims to everything Bane_of_the_Living has said. I don't feel the need to restate them. Since you (BotL) feel the need to flame me, wastedlife, my team, and this site for proposing that this deck MAY (and in my opinion does) have more power than an established deck with similar gameplan, perhaps I should leave it at that.

I have no hard feelings about you or the rest of your team, Im sorry you got the idea this was flamming. My opposition stands as to which deck has more game, but I didnt feel the words I typed on a computer screen expressed the tone you picked up. Im a harsh critic to someone who very blatantly claims a deck is superior in all ways to a Grand Prix contender. This should be understandable.

I think outsideangel said it best. Hard testing results buy people over. We'll see if this deck comes out on top in a few months. I wish Bryant and anyone else handling the deck luck at GP Columbus trying to put this deck on the map.

[troopatroop]

I see so much say being put on results and "we'll see after the GP." Forget that. singular tournaments are not perfect indicators of power. Luck is too much of a factor. Endlessly testing matchups should be enough information. As far as I'm concerned, TES has been tested like a lab rat. If you don't want to believe the results, that's fine, but you CAN'T disagree with the results, just because they werent in a tournament setting.

[herbig]

If you were refering to Deadguy and Red Death, the decks strategies are completely different because your tuning the deck more aggro as the death. Nausea(or other tendrils) adding Rite of Flame and Empty the Warrens does keep it the same deck. It does play the same way. The deck is simply adding the best cards that come out as they come out, keeping the same strategy of build storm and kill the opponent as quick as possible.

Wouldn't adding more rituals, a shakier manabase to support said rituals as well as an alternate win that gives your opponent a few turns to find an answer make TES a more aggressive build of IGG?

Do they play very differently? Yes. Are they the same deck? Inasmuch as Gifts is the same as Long, casting a bunch of spells and playing Tendrils, yeah they're the same deck. They just utilize different cards to get there, but the end result is the same. One is slower, more resilient to hate, and more consistent, whatever.

Honestly though I don't know what you're arguing about. Do you not like me? There isn't any need to flame my short and to the point style of posting. In the future I'll try and make complete sentences full of spite and useless banter.

Seriously though, why do you keep bringing up Nausea? You mention it in like every post.

[blarknob]

I actually think Nausea is relevant in this conversation. Its relevant because it was championed for a long time by the source while iggy was out in the open.

Just saying :)

[Bryant Cook]

Whats that have to do with TES vs. IGGy?