[Deck] Solitaire (Enchantress)

[ClearSkies]

Just wondering, just how good (or bad) is Dovescape out of a Sideboard or MD? Once it is out, are there even answers to it? Can it actually backfire on you?

[GreenOne]

Just wondering, just how good (or bad) is Dovescape out of a Sideboard or MD?

It's good if you manage to getit out. 6 mana is a lot for the matchups where you want it (mostly combo).

Once it is out, are there even answers to it?

Yeah, all sort of critters that can bounce or destroy it (Venser, Harmonic Sliver, Nantuko Vigilante...). However, nobody plays those excluding Survival and maybe slivers.
Oh, there's Temporal Fissure too!

Can it actually backfire on you?

As long as you have an enchantress effect out no.
If you have Elephant Grass or Confinament going it's a NO with capital letters.

[crazyroundman]

Hey, I'm a long time reader, first time writer.

I was wondering why more people don't play Enchantress right now. It seems to me that it's an excellent Meta choice right now. Seriously, let's look at the Legacy Metagame Forum, and compare match-ups:
-Breakfast: Leyline + Elephant grass + ground seal = GG nub
-43 land/Lands! - I must admit I'm pretty poorly versed in this match. I can imagine that playing 8 basics helps against waste locks, and that null chamber on Life From the Loam is an excellent choice.
-Landstill - Remember Replenish? I'd think that with city of solitudes, two or three different wins (depending if you're running dovescape), and Replenish, you'd have at least a fair game. Karmic Justice also helps, I'd imagine.
-Thresh Variants - Choke? I can see white giving problems, on account of mages can fuck you over pretty hard, but running black (who can afford an abyss, though) or even just fucking seal of fires should seal (lol) that deal.
-Aluren - They ahve deed, but you have comfinement and grove lock. Also, humility if you're main boarding it.
-Fish - See gro, only they dont' have Tarmogoyf. Walk in the park.
-LFTL decks - Jesus, did nobody honestly post in that in more than a month and a half?

Seems pretty good to me. And with Chrome mox or ESG you can get an early chill (with blue) or ROL to help out against belcher/TES.

I just love playing enchantress because it draws you so many freaking cards.

[honz]

Loam is a joke. Ground seal shuts off loam itself, with oblivion ring / aura to cut off exploration/manabond. Leylines take their graveyard away. Grass + activation cost is enough to keep them down to 1-2 manlands a turn. Their only chance is topdecking manabond and 3-4 ports.

Thresh has been my biggest problem. Rings help, but i think you really need black for a possative MU. Since i dont own an abyss, i havent had the need to run black. It is still pretty close, depending how fast they find a goyf.

This deck has great MUs, and i dont see why more people dont play it either. Fast combo is the only issue, and even that isnt a huge deal.

EDIT: On second though, i know exactly why more people don't play this deck. Mainly, because the deck is made up entirely (aside from lands) of cards that arn't played in any other decent deck. There are only 6 cards that ever see play in any other deck: 3 conifnements, 2 replenish, and 1 moat.

So, buying this deck allows you to only play this deck. If you were to buy something like thresh, all those cards are played in numerous other decks, allowing you to invest in multiple decks at once.

[GreenOne]

I wonder what version is people playing right now.

I'm playing GWr, with 3 Oblivion Rings maindeck and red only for WoW. This allows me to play with 9 basics. I play with a couple Chromes too. The only thing I miss about Black is Leyline. The Abyss is not that gamebreaking for its cost (let untargettable creatures survive), seal of doom seems to me like Oblivion Ring's poor brother.
I usually board 2 Choke and 4 City of Solitude vs thresh and the game becomes quite one-sided: too many threats in the deck to counter (8 Enchantress, 4 City, 2 Choke, 1 Moat and maybe oblivion ring too).
Vs lands and Loam I have 3 Ground Seals (1 more in SB) and 1 sacred Ground in SB. I also have plenty of basics.

Black based Aggro-Control is slightly unfavorable. I board 1 Sacred Ground and 1 Spiritual Focus, but that doesn't change much the results (they can board Plagues, Etirpates, Disenchant, Dystopia...)
My combo matchup (excluding Breakfast) is pretty poor, is ther a way to improve it without adding other colors? SB Orim's chant?

What about you all? What colors are you playing?

[HdH_Cthulhu]

It is a little bit oldschool but in my SB are 3 Compost! Thats because in my meta there are a lot of POX, sucide usw...
Compost is a realy good card against such decks!
I also play wramth against BURN decks and i am quit happy with it...
I couldnt think of a better card aginst burn, and whene you have 2 on the board it is gg

[slyfer]

I really have problems with BW pikula.... you go land utopia, he go land ritual duress sinkhole, then wasteland, then vindicate.... damn, i couldn't do anything

If I am unlucky and draw the duals, it's over...

[ClearSkies]

I really have problems with BW pikula.... you go land utopia, he go land ritual duress sinkhole, then wasteland, then vindicate.... damn, i couldn't do anything

If I am unlucky and draw the duals, it's over...

You can always try Sacred Ground... and avoid fetching your dual lands.

[slyfer]

yes, but maindeck I don't play sacred ground, post side you can play 1 sacred ground and hope into grove (GW ench tutor).
Sometimes you just drop savana because it's in you hand, not for fetching it

by the way I like the finisher 1 sacred mesa 1 words of war and 2 replenish

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

You could always slow play your fetch-lands. I find the black-based match-up to be a bit rough in the beginning, but Elephant Grass often saves the day by stalling them long enough to get running again. Replenish is also potentially huge here.

If it's the LD that's causing you fits, you could run Sacred Ground, Karmic Justice, or Spreading Algae.

[Zach Tartell]

Try the Spreading Algae - not only does it hose Dystopia, but it helps draw cards if you can resolve a single effect. It doesn't really work at mana-denial unless you've got four or so in your board, but it's a great one- or two-of.

Jury's still out on Ob ring. I haven't played in a tournament with or without it (I ran gardens at the last local), but it seems to me like I'd only slide out Counterbalance (I have aura at 3, seal of Primordium at 2, and Replenish at 4 to deal with those) or a creature. And Seal of Doom is one hell of a lot better at dealing with creatures. Say what you will, but Instant speed > sorcery speed, even if it's only non-black. What's black that you're afraid of that you could deal with at sorcery speed? Not a Ghoul. A negator, maybe. But a hippy will just drown in my card advantage, and Bob can draw my opponent all the cards he'd like - I'll sit under confinement, thanks.

As for colors and wins, I'm running a 5 color manabase with WoWar, Sacred Mesa, and Dovescape (boarded for control and combo) for my wins. Blue is for chill and dovescape, red for WOWar, Black for THe Abyss and Seal of Doom (I'm wishy washy about wanting Leyline in teh Board or Planar Void in the main), white for the normal shit and green for the engine, accelleration, and Ground Seal.

[GreenOne]

And Seal of Doom is one hell of a lot better at dealing with creatures. Say what you will, but Instant speed > sorcery speed, even if it's only non-black. What's black that you're afraid of that you could deal with at sorcery speed? Not a Ghoul. A negator, maybe. But a hippy will just drown in my card advantage, and Bob can draw my opponent all the cards he'd like - I'll sit under confinement, thanks.

Vs black decks everything is going to be ok if you have your engine running. The problem comes if they disrupt your engine with discard (they have thoughtseize to discard argothins now), killing Argothians, LD. So confinament is not an option if you're not in a already winning position, a Hippie or a confidant is going to be some good if you don't have an enchantress effect out.

Say what you will, but useful card > dead card. There are decks with no/little creatures and a lot of decks with no/very few artifacts/enchantments. Oblivion Ring is rarely a dead card, but i can't say so of Aura of silence and seal of primordium.
Let's say it's G1 vs thresh with no maindeck counterbalance
Seal of doom is not really that better than Oblivion Ring, it just worsen your manabase if you're playing Vs a version with wasteland.
Seal of primordium / aura of silence are useless unless they run MD EE or Needle. Not much.
Vs Goblins you have to draw that Seal of primordium or Aura of silence when they draw a vial or they are really dead.
And the istant speed is taken out if you SB in City of Solitude.

[FredMaster]

Could one of you bring up a current list?

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

Say what you will, but useful card > dead card. There are decks with no/little creatures and a lot of decks with no/very few artifacts/enchantments. Oblivion Ring is rarely a dead card, but i can't say so of Aura of silence and seal of primordium.

In a vacuum that's true. But compare Bandage to Swords to Plowshares. Bandage is never dead because it always cantrips, whereas StP is dead in many match-ups; Ichorid, Enchantress, storm-based combo. Yet people play StP over Bandage. Why?

A card that might be dead is worth running over a card that's never dead if the former wins more games than the latter. I'm not convinced that Oblivion Ring is really going to be winning me many games that Aua of Silence wouldn't. It can slide out a creature, but only one. If my engine isn't online, trading cards on a one-for-one basis isn't going to work.

[GreenOne]

In a vacuum that's true. But compare Bandage to Swords to Plowshares. Bandage is never dead because it always cantrips, whereas StP is dead in many match-ups; Ichorid, Enchantress, storm-based combo. Yet people play StP over Bandage. Why?

Bendage doesn't kill creatures, STP does. How can you compare those?
A better example would be Abeyance vs Orim's Chant, the discussion is close. Some prefer the first some the latter.

If you like to take similar cards then it's something like
Seal of primordium/aura of silence = disenchant
Seal of doom = dark banishing
Oblivion Ring = Vindicate that can't hit lands. We don't have a LD plan anyway.

Why is people playing MD vindicate but noone plays MD disenchant and dark banishing?
Because Vindicate does many things where the others are too specific.

A card that might be dead is worth running over a card that's never dead if the former wins more games than the latter.

That's right, but not easy to quantify.

I'm not convinced that Oblivion Ring is really going to be winning me many games that Aura of Silence wouldn't. It can slide out a creature, but only one. If my engine isn't online, trading cards on a one-for-one basis isn't going to work.

If your engine isn't running oblivion ring buys you time to draw into your engine/replenish/grove. That becomes easier if you're not taking 4-5 a turn from a Goyf.
In today's meta weenie decks (goblins, zoo) are on the fall. People is more and more trying to beat down with a little number of disruptive or powerful creatures. Taking down a creature may mean the opponent didn't drew other threats and you can just draw-go until you have the engine online.

Did any of you actually test a significant amount (2-3) Oblivion Rings or is this just speculation?

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

I'm not going to lie, I'm basing it on speculation and feedback I'm seeing from people testing it. I could be totally wrong, but the card's effect just doesn't impress me. Neither does Seal of Doom for that matter. It just seems like I could be running another Moat in that spot for 1 mana more.

[mnellsae]

I'm not going to lie, I'm basing it on speculation and feedback I'm seeing from people testing it. I could be totally wrong, but the card's effect just doesn't impress me. Neither does Seal of Doom for that matter. It just seems like I could be running another Moat in that spot for 1 mana more.

I don't think the entire point of Seal of Doom (or Oblivion Ring) is to stop attackers, which is the only thing moat does. It also serves to kill problematic utility creatures, like Mettling Mage or whatever.

As far as Oblivion Ring vs. Seal of Doom/Seal of Primordium: The ring is definately more vesitle, but it all depends on the amount of enchantment hate out there. That answer will only come from your meta and your testing, and inclusion of the Ring will be specific for said answer.

If there's no enchantment hate out there, use the Ring, it gets nearly everything. If there's always an answer for the Ring, use the Seals so that shit'll be gone forever.

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

In which case it only kills two relevant guys I can think of; Dark Confidant and Meddling Mage. Neither sees that much play, and Elephant Grass tends to trump the strategies of decks that use the former.

So it answers 1 Mage, or 1 Enforcer, or 1 Confidant, but Moat answers an entire attacking army of Goyfs and Geese.

[mnellsae]

In which case it only kills two relevant guys I can think of; Dark Confidant and Meddling Mage. Neither sees that much play, and Elephant Grass tends to trump the strategies of decks that use the former.

So it answers 1 Mage, or 1 Enforcer, or 1 Confidant, but Moat answers an entire attacking army of Goyfs and Geese.

I'm not discounting the value of Moat, it's definately one of the top must-haves for this deck. I'm just saying it might not be the answer for everyone to replace Seal of Doom or Oblivion Ring with more Moats.

I agree about the Mage, I don't see it played so much lately (but if he's chanting Words of War or Sacred Mesa...). But nearly every deck I see playing black has Confidant. Maybe just my meta.

As for the other utility and flying creatures, there are plenty out there that you might find yourself needing answers for:

Kiki Jiki, en-Kor guys, Eternal Dragon, Raven Familiar, Cavern Harpy, Mother of Runes, Jotun Grunt, Wild Mongrel, Serra Avenger, et al.

I'm not trying to convince you to use the Seal or the Ring, choose what's right for you. I'm just putting out a PSA that Moat and Elephant Grass will not answer all your creature problems.

I'm just realizing that I hijacked the thread for an off-hand comment that probably wasn't meant too seriously, sorry :P

[Joon]

Has anybody an actual list with the b-splash? And are you guys cutting red for it or just splash black in addition? The main reasons for splashing black were (if I remember right ):

LotV
The Abyss
Seal of Doom

Did I forget anything?