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Thread: [Deck] Solitaire (Enchantress)

  1. #121

    Re: [Deck] Enchantress (Solitaire)

    Quote Originally Posted by SpatulaOfTheAges View Post
    It kind of takes away some reason for the black splash. The ability to deal with fatties/utility creatures/troubling artifacts/enchantments is nice.

    What kind of interaction could there be by targeting your own permanents? Ground Seal?

    Edit: You could Ring away a Presence in anticipation of a sweeper perhaps?
    Black is still necessary, in my book. The Abyss is an absoulte house against agro. It's a permenant answer to multiple tarmogoyfs, and other creatures. Like, it'll definetly replace Seal of Doom (and then one - I'm only running one seal main'd), but black is just way too good to cut. You get Leyline! Leyline of the Void! When breakfast is gone, we can cut black. But I already got my German Bayous, so black is here to stay through the breakfast fiasco.

    Because, if he actually gets to knock some of the stuff into his yard, when he deeds away the board, he could possibly win. Leyline RFG's everything that he could have for the combo.

    Comclusion:
    Oblivion Ring - Amazing
    Black - here for a while
    Seal of doom - got pwnt. 'scept for seal's at instant speed. hmm....
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  2. #122
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    Re: [Deck] Enchantress (Solitaire)

    With access to black mana, couldn't Planar Void be better than Leyline of the Void? Especially as a 2-of (i.e. you'll often pay 2BB for Leyline).

    It hoses Breakfast and Goyf decks just the same, and Ichorid only slightly less (they still get Zombie tokens from any Bridges they dropped in the yard earlier). And in the matchups where you'd want graveyard hate, you don't care about board sweepers and thus don't need your own graveyard (for Replenish).
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  3. #123

    Re: [Deck] Enchantress (Solitaire)

    Quote Originally Posted by Nihil View Post
    With access to black mana, couldn't Planar Void be better than Leyline of the Void? Especially as a 2-of (i.e. you'll often pay 2BB for Leyline).

    It hoses Breakfast and Goyf decks just the same, and Ichorid only slightly less (they still get Zombie tokens from any Bridges they dropped in the yard earlier). And in the matchups where you'd want graveyard hate, you don't care about board sweepers and thus don't need your own graveyard (for Replenish).
    Planar Void's symetry (sp?) is an issue - at least where I'm from. Di, creator/advocate of Eternal Gardens, plays at my locals. In that matchup, whose liklihood to occur is pretty much nihl, the lack of symmetry is huge. Smokestack + EE = very much important to have acess to replenish.

    Against goyf, I hadn't thought about the excellence that planar void would be. True, it would be better against that. However, decks with tarmogoyf commonly have countermagic, and it's fucking irritating to have to actually cast a spell that has in its cost. Being able to START with leyline, it's freaking sweet. That wasn't a sentence, but whatever. Leyline > planar void.
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  4. #124

    Re: [Deck] Enchantress (Solitaire)

    So, is the idea to cut red for black, or just a 1-2 land black splash?

    Leyline does seem pretty crazy against breakfast/ichorid, but with moat, solitary, and elephant grass, do you really need it? Also, light of day coming out of the board (probly only 1 card, but still a factor). I can't say i have tested against either of those much at all, but it seems like you would have a favorable game. I would really like to see a list with black though.

    I have really been having problems with thresh, so maybe a black splash could help there. Oblivion ring seems like it would really help. Despite running 4 groves, 4 seals, 2 replenish and alot of SB hate, i seem to loose almost everygame against thresh. Goyf has just been way too much to handle, especially with counterspells to back it up. Is there any good way to solidify this MU?

    Aside from thresh being a problem i love this deck. It has been playing really well for me, and as soon as i find a decent priced moat (been using island sanctuary which is almost as good), i plan on playing with it alot more. I appreciate all the work you guys have done with it.

  5. #125
    Monster Xero
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    Re: [Deck] Enchantress (Solitaire)

    I run 1x MD City of Solitude for Thresh., plus more in the board. That+Choke from the SB is pretty good at hating it.
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  6. #126

    Re: [Deck] Enchantress (Solitaire)

    I can`t see the necessity for splashing black.

    Moat is strictly better than The Abyss. If you want another card with similiar effect try Parallax Wave. This card is also more synergetic with Replenish.

    If you need some replacement for Leyline try Night Soil. It shouldnt be that bad vs breakfast and is on-color.

  7. #127
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    Re: [Deck] Enchantress (Solitaire)

    I think that in most of the current relevant match-ups, Ground Seal is going to do the same job as Planar Void/Leyline. If that seems insufficient, there is Night Soil, as Strom just said.

    Leyline is nice of course, in that it's uncounterable and free sometimes,but on the other hand, sometimes its bleeding expensive.

    Xero - Try maindecking Choke instead of City of Solitude. Choke actually seems more relevant in the match-ups where either card matters.
    Early one morning while making the round,
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  8. #128

    Re: [Deck] Enchantress (Solitaire)

    I would take city over choke against thresh. Preboard, choke still allows them FoW, and island use one time. Plus, bouncing islands with daze is just a slap in choke's face. Post board, you have to worry about eot, krosan grip. City assures that, atleast, you turn will be counter free. That allows you to tap out for moat, or solitary, or whatever.

    Does the spoiler card,

    Gaddock Teeg
    Legendary Creature - Kithkin Advisor
    Noncreature spells with converted mana cost 4 or greater can't be played.
    Noncreature spells with X in their mana costs can't be played.
    2/2

    do anything for us? If you run ESG, it is a turn 1 answer to combo (tendrils, dread return, belcher, ETW). If you don't, it comes down turn 2 almost 100% of the time. Rule of law can be too slow to matter, with the 3cc. Since it can't be tutored for via grove, it looses some synergy. However, by the time you drop grove and tutor for rule, and play it, you will be dead.

    Just a thought, perhaps it is worth some testing.

  9. #129
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    Re: [Deck] Enchantress (Solitaire)

    I don't think Teeg does anything here, because there's plenty of other Enchantments we can drop turn two or quicker to mess with combo, and Enchantments are often tougher to remove.

    Teeg's biggest point of assistance would be against Storm Combo, or more specifically, Tendrils of Agony. Leyline + Ground Seal + Elephant Grass is already triple tech against Breakfast/Ichorid. Against Storm Combo, we have a protectable Rule of Law (Which we -can- get down turn two but won't usually), Elephant Grass to stall against Warrens tokens, and Solitary Confinement if we stall long enough to function under it.

    Also, I run an Engineered Plague maindeck (Solid against Ichorid, Breakfast, ETW Combo, Goblins, etc), but I don't think Zach does.

    Tendrils of Agony is still a bitch, though.

    Quote Originally Posted by majikal View Post
    Damn it, Taco, that exactly sums up my opinion on the matter. I need to buy you a beer for that post.

  10. #130

    Re: [Deck] Enchantress (Solitaire)

    My list, as of 14 September 2007:
    5 Forest
    1 Taiga
    4 Savannah
    2 Bayou <- Secret, Savage Tech
    2 Plains
    4 Windswept Heath
    2 Serra’s Sanctum
    4 Exploration
    4 Utopia Sprawl
    2 Sylvan Library
    4 Sterling Grove
    3 Solitary Confinement
    2 Ground Seal
    1 Leyline of the Void
    1 Aura of Silence
    1 Seal of Primordium
    1 Seal of Doom
    1 Moat
    1 The Abyss
    2 Replenish
    4 Argothian Enchantress
    4 Enchantress’s Presence
    4 Elephant Grass
    1 Words of War
    1 Sacred Mesa

    Sideboard:
    2 Leyline of the Void
    3 Rule of Law
    2 Karmic Justice
    2 City of Solitude
    1 Aura of Silence
    1 Seal of Doom
    2 Choke
    1 Null Chamber
    1 Solitary Confinement

    Allow me to address some concerns that I either haven't been asked directly, or missed, because Callusso complemented my ability to make it rain on them hoes:

    Splashes:
    -Green: Necessary. I won't patronize you by saying things like, "Oh, gosh, I wish we didn't have to play Green. Forests make me sad, LOL."
    -White: Allows the orrigional plan of sitting behind squee and confinement. Enables lots of tool-box-y sort of enchantments, and the best tutor we have acess to (Golden wish, of course).
    -Red: The old-school win of Words of War is red. When Goblins ruled the world, seal of fire was pretty tech. Immolation was used as a permenant answer to Psychotog and wild Mongrel, both of whom have sort of left the play scene of late. I played Form of the Dragon in my first Top 8 back at the second Annual GAGG tournament.
    -Blue: This allows the ever-annoying Words of Wind. Being able to bounce an opponent's entire board while returning an Exploration and Serra's Sanctum to yours is awful pimp. Trade Routes is really good at recycling Sanctum, and Seal of Removial is good against goblin lackey (and lethal Tarmogoyf damage).
    -Black: I'd discounted Black like, forever. It doesn't seem to offer much in the way of utility or power, on the outside. But then you start using Gatherer to look up every single Black Enchantment. After six or eight hours and a liberal application of pizza, an obervant... observer will note that there are some pretty good Black Enchantments. Planar Void, Leyline of the Void, Seal of Doom, The Abyss, Engineered Plague, and Necra Sanctuary (look it up, I'll wait). Words of Waste is pretty much unplayable, but there might be some other cool ones. Props to Tacosnape (who, in fact, killed Tacodumbledore) for looking into Black in earnest.

    Card by Card Choices:
    I'm going to skip the part where I go over why we play Argothian Enchantresses, and Savannahs. If it's normal, boring stuff, I'm not going to explain it.

    -Manabase: 2 Bayous are necessary to support Leyline of the Void, which I will explain the need for later. 1 Taiga is still needed to play the Words of War, which is the deck's main win condition. Sanctums are a necessary evil - Living Wish is trash, in my humble opinion, so it's not worth putting one in the board and cutting the two main'ed ones.
    -Leyline of the Void over Planar Void: Replenish is amazing. I'd've said "a house," but I anticipate using it later when I describe how amazing The Abyss is. Leyline is better in my opinion, because (rarely) you can open-hand it and just drop it. Un-counter-ablility is really good against Breakfast. And its not being symetrical makes Replenish good, a point which I'd digressed from only moments ago.
    -Ground Seal: I could only MD two of these bad boys. In the olden days (we're talking like 2002) people played two or three of these guys, just for the double cantrip you'd get off their Enchantress Effects. Sages before their time, they were.
    -Solitary Confinement in the board: I'm not so afraid of agro anymore. I see a lot more Control in Syracuse than elsewhere. You only really need it against goblins and combo with tendrils. You can move it main-decked at the expence of the... something. I'm not sure what.
    -Moat: I'm still running moat because some agro (is there a second "g" in agro?) and agro/control decks just don't run fliers. For serious. Getting poeple to scoop to an enchantment is AMAZING for your morale. It's good enough that I used to run two, but decks like Faerie Stompy keep popping up here and there, so it's good to keep your Elephant Grasses main, still.
    -No Ghostly Prison: Yup. No room for it, just not worth the space. I'd love to go on about how good it is, usually, because it is. Maybe if I could fit a single one in the sideboard. Hmmm... This leads me directly to...
    -Elephant Grass: Ever play against, or just been around Adam Barnello? Guy's pretty cool (not just because he gave me a shout-out in his next-to-last article), and has an amazing manurism (sp?), or tick or something. When something really cool happens, he gets all excited, and like does Jazz Fingers or something weird with his hands, adopts a different tone of voice, and says, "That's AWESOME!" I guess you have to have been there at least once, but it's really cool to watch. Adam's an awesome guy. Anyway, I'm not sure if there's much more to say. Breakfast made Enchantress good again, solely because of this card. Whether they go Kiki/Hussar or Sutured Ghoul, Elephant Grass is a one-card answer to their win condition. Cumulative upkeep aside, this card is great. Comboes nicely with Choke.
    -Seal of Primordium: I was going to cut this before Eli's last DLD, but I didn't, because I didn't have a third Aura of Silence in Korean, so I didn't. In my match against Kyle Dorgan, he needled Aura of Silence, which I had in my hand. I played it to cantrip, drew into seal of primordium, and blew up the needle on it, then blew up counterbalance, then won. Absolute redundancy is necessary.
    -No Mainboarded Karmic Justice: Two in the board, it's good enough, I reckon. Only relevant against decks with forests and Burning Wish (for Reverant Silence), Landstill (EE, Deed, Wasteland), Truffleshuffle (Crime/Punishment), and... I'm sure there's something else to fret about. I'll get over it. I only bring them in against Landstill, mostly.
    -City of Solitude: In the board, only good against thresh and Blue Based Control. Don't worry, you won't mind it game one.
    -No Sacred Ground: I want it, bad. Just no room for it, though. Helps greatly in the Stax and Landstill matchup, but not enough to keep it in.
    -No Spiritual Focus: Not enough room. Because IGGY mopped the floor with me, I may add it back in. Not sure what I'm gonna cut, though.
    -PM me with questions and I'll amend this, or I'll write a new post.

    Match-Ups:
    I hate it when some tool goes on and claims a 90%/10% MU for everything, ever. I'm not gonna be that guy. A match-up is either favorable, un-favorable, or even. I might tack on "extremely" for something, but probably not in a positive way.

    -UGr/UGw/UGrw/UGbr/UGbw Thresh: Thresh with Meddling Magi is difficult. UGr is probably the best you could hope for. No Counterbalance card at 4, no "pro-black" fliers... Excellent (you've got to picture me steepling my fingers here). Needles are arduous, if they know what to needle. And Meddling Magi are really tough to play around if they're not dumb. The Abyss helps this alot. (Favorable)
    -Landstill: If there's Black and Green, you might be in trouble. Otherwise, they just don't have enough Engineered Explosives to pick off your threats, and replenish is really good against control like that. Their slow clock allows you to abuse Sylvan Library savagely. I once used Words of War to race a turn two monastry, and won. I wouldn't recomend that, though. Extremely Favorable post-board, if they don't have deed. Good already (before boarding).
    -Goblins: I recall what Matt Abold told me at the GAGG, when I got matched up against Bennett Tomms, "Y'know what's really good agaisnt goblins? Half your deck." Though the list has changed, goblins has switched to green, which loses Armageddon. I'm pretty happy about that. Tranquil Domain isn't that scarry, because it's a terrible card. I'm extremely confident about playing Goblins. Favorable/Favorable. Boarding doesn't help that much.
    -TES: Bad. If you can lock down game one then you have game three to try for your turn 2 ROL. Extremely Unfavorable/Just slightly less than even.
    -IGGY Pop: Not as bad as TES, because they don't have acess to the same amount of tutors and rituals. Unfavorable/Even.

    I don't care to write more about match-ups; if it's agro, odds are it's in your favor. Control is in your favor, because they can't kill you fast. Again, PM me if you'd like me to add thoughts about a particular match-up.

    Enjoy it, folks. Enchantress is good again, for a while.

    (There's an 's' in here somewhere. Find it, and I'll give you a quarter.)
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    Quote Originally Posted by herbig View Post
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  11. #131

    Re: [Deck] Enchantress (Solitaire)

    i am terribly against teh abyss... moat is just better really...

    plus, with the number of locks aka confinement... it isnt needed... plus it may only kill your enchantress's or peg's...

  12. #132

    Re: [Deck] Enchantress (Solitaire)

    Quote Originally Posted by burkey_boy View Post
    i am terribly against teh abyss... moat is just better really...

    plus, with the number of locks aka confinement... it isnt needed... plus it may only kill your enchantress's or peg's...
    The Abyss can't kill Enchantress, it has shroud.

    The Abyss provides a permanent advantage. Moat stalls until you win or they find an answer, although it does stop stop immediately. One of each could be best if you're playing black and happen to have them.

  13. #133
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    Re: [Deck] Enchantress (Solitaire)

    Quote Originally Posted by honz View Post
    I would take city over choke against thresh. Preboard, choke still allows them FoW, and island use one time. Plus, bouncing islands with daze is just a slap in choke's face. Post board, you have to worry about eot, krosan grip. City assures that, atleast, you turn will be counter free. That allows you to tap out for moat, or solitary, or whatever.
    City of Solitude;

    Pros -

    -It stops FoW, Daze, and Counterspell.
    -It can steal you games against Solidarity.

    Cons -

    -It costs 3 mana, meaning it only stops those counters turn 3 at the earliest, assuming you forsook your second turn for Choke rather than an Enchantress, and assuming you have it in the top 8.
    -If your initial set of threats ran into an answer wall, City does absolutely nothing. City never effects the board situation.
    -In match-ups not running counter-magic, City is useless.

    Choke -

    Pros -

    -It has strong synergy with Elephant Grass; getting Thresh to tap out to swing, then dropping Choke can be devestating, and this play works well mid-game with Sterling Grove tutorage, unlike City of Solitude.
    -It's massive tempo advantage whenever a blue player taps out for something sorcery speed, including IGGy Pop for a tutor, Thresh for a beater, or Breakfast for whatever.

    Cons -

    -It doesn't shut off FoW or Daze.
    -It's useless against decks not running islands.
    Early one morning while making the round,
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  14. #134
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    Re: [Deck] Enchantress (Solitaire)

    I think another con for City of Solitude is that you can't make Pegasus tokens on your opponents turn from your Sacred Mesa. Maybe that's not such a big con, but I prefer to make tokens at the end of my opponents turn.

  15. #135
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    Re: [Deck] Enchantress (Solitaire)

    The thing is that there are a lot of decks running islands right now, but they don't need to be able to counter your shit mid to late game. They have alternate game-plans. City doesn't stop those plans. Choke can.
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  16. #136

    Re: [Deck] Enchantress (Solitaire)

    ive been looking at the new set... and the cards...

    semi-creature removal enchantment style....
    Lignify 1G
    Tribal Enchantment - Treefolk Aura
    Enchant creature
    Enchanted creature loses all abilities and becomes a 0/4 Treefolk.

    bit of alt win, and cool replace for city... free biggins...
    Eyes of the Wisent 1W
    Tribal Enchantment - Elemental
    Whenever an opponent plays a spell during your turn, you may put a 4/4 green Elemental creature token into play.

    great removal... for everything... just cool really....
    Oblivion Ring 2W
    Enchantment
    When Oblivion Ring comes into play, remove another target nonland permanent from the game.
    When Oblivion Ring leaves play, return the removed card to play under its owner's control.

    alt win 2... with all that draw... cooler than the pegasus win...
    Hoofprint of the Stag 1W
    Tribal Enchantment - Elemental
    Whenever you draw a card, you may put a hoofprint counter on Hoofprint of the Stag.
    2W, Remove four hoofprint counters from Hoofprint of the Stag: Put a 4/4 white Elemental creature token with flying into play. Play this ability only during your turn.


    i especially like the hoofprint... might be a bit slow though....

  17. #137
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    Re: [Deck] Enchantress (Solitaire)

    Quote Originally Posted by burkey_boy View Post
    ive been looking at the new set... and the cards...

    <stuff>

    alt win 2... with all that draw... cooler than the pegasus win...
    Hoofprint of the Stag 1W
    Tribal Enchantment - Elemental
    Whenever you draw a card, you may put a hoofprint counter on Hoofprint of the Stag.
    2W, Remove four hoofprint counters from Hoofprint of the Stag: Put a 4/4 white Elemental creature token with flying into play. Play this ability only during your turn.

    i especially like the hoofprint... might be a bit slow though....
    Hmm.... I like Hoofprint of the Stag but I don't think it will replace Sacred Mesa. The thing that bothers me about Hoofprint is the fact that you need four counters per 4/4 Elemental. Enchantress draws cards like mad, but you need the card drawing from Argothian + Enchantress's Presence out there to build up those counters, otherwise you're only drawing 1 card per turn. That might be too slow.

    With Sacred Mesa, there are already ton of other 1cc to 2cc drops. So if you happen to drop a Serra's Sanctum, you can pump out at least 4+ Pegasii the minute it comes out.

  18. #138
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    Re: [Deck] Enchantress (Solitaire)

    It also can be countered to give opposing Goyfs +1/+1. It might be worth testing as a third kill condition, but I wouldn't be too hopeful.
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  19. #139
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    Re: [Deck] Enchantress (Solitaire)

    With multiple Sylvan Libraries you can be drawing 5+ cards a turn still, but not deck yourself thanks to the fact 4 have to go back.
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  20. #140

    Re: [Deck] Enchantress (Solitaire)

    I like the fact that Mesa can pump stuff out without the card draw. It seems like a faster finisher if you have a lot of draw already going, but if you have that much drawing, I think winning won't be much of a problem.

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