As for this new enchantment, I'm not a big fan of it. With the current list, there aren't any Auras except the Utopia Sprawls because of how conditional Auras are. I haven't seen any lists play Pacifism-ish cards before, so I don't see how this would be any better.Originally Posted by burkey_boy
Oblivion Ring on the other hand, is hot. Being able to rid the other side of any obnoxious permanent (Needle, Deed when they are tapped out, Siege-Gang, etc) is fantastic.
I really am looking foward to rings, because it is going to help the thresh MU without splashing black (i can't afford an abyss, i still run island sanctuary as my moat).
As to the hoofprint enchantment, it seems weak. Sanctum is such a powerhouse with mesa, and the fact that you can just drop tokens whenever you have 2 mana is amazing. I have just chumped with mesa so many times, and waited till i drew what i need. 4 mana + mesa > goyf.
This is the Deck I played 2 weeks ago at a local tournament here in germany. The fist time enchantress went T8 in germany i think!
Maindeck:
8 Forest
4 Plains
4 Windswept Heath
2 Serra´s Sanctum
1 Savannah
1 Plateau
1 Taiga
21
4 Exploration
4 Utopia Sprawl
4 Argothiasn Enchantress
4 Enchantress´s Presence
2 Moat
3 Elephant Grass
2 Ghostly Prison
3 Solitary Confinement
3 Sterling Grove
2 Sylvan Library
2 Replenish
1 Seal of primordium
1 City of Solitude
1 Ground Seal
1 Sacred Mesa
1 Words of War
1 Eternal Dragon
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
61
Siedeboard:
4 Rule of Law
3 Choke
2 City of Solitude
2 Karmic Justice
1 Null Chamber
1 Aura of Silence
1 Holistic wisdom
1 Hidden gibbons
15
22 players tournament – 5 Rounds
1. vs 8 Pox 2-1
game1: lost...duress..hymn...+3 sinkholes
game 2: same start but no sinkholes.....moat....eternal win
game 3: hymn, hymn....extirpate-> presence ...WoW win
2. vs Mono r burn 2-0
game 1: 3turn confinement + squee.....soooo amazing!
game 2: 2.argothian, 3.turn presence 4.confinement game
3.vs Staxx 0-2
game 1: no enchantress found! Loss
game 2: muligan to 5(no lands found)..bad matchup
4. vs grow 2-0
game 1: moat stopps goofys and mongoose..replenish->then a lot of stalling behind confinement and then dragon hardcast+WoW
game 2: 2nd mage naming presence...then argothian....one turn later words of war...->mage kill and sylvan library ->library+wow wins
5. vs AyBaseruption 1-1
We played for fun (a draw was enough for both players to receive a price)
Game 1: goofy was too fast
Game 2: notes missing..but eternal was great....15dmg...but then he was vindicated
So I went 3-1-1....
Pros:
With luck I can win vs 8Pox!
Amazing Grow matchup!
I love to play against MonoR Burn with this deck!
For me its amazing to play this deck...I think my opponents doesn`t......
Received 1 Flooded Stand for 4th place
My random eternal wins a lot of games....often the second one when everyone has boarded out his removal;)
Next tournament I`ll try Necra Santuary
Kons:
No chance against Staxx...The next tournament I`ll play more aura of silence
Never found or used the mesa
Aura isn't the card that slaughters Stax. Karmic Justice is. With Stax, Pox, Rifter, and Train Wreck rampant in my metagame, Karmic Justice is a godsend.
Also, Eternal Dragon? Why on earth?
In the stax game, i never found the justice! So it was a lot of misfortune.
The lonely eternal is soooo amazing! Normally it cycles for the missing taiga, plateau or scrubland with black splash.
In addition the dragon is an amazing finisher. Many opponets side out the swords and other creature removel. Thats the reason why it finished 3 times at the tournament.
Has this deck ever gone up against a Kavu-Cure deck? It would more than likely roll over and die due to Cures main-decked mass enchantment removal.
Possibly. Fortunately, nobody seriously runs Kavu Cure.
As to how to counteract that, um. Null Chamber on Reverent Silence seems to be about the best thing I can think of.
Kavu-Cure is really a fragile deck. Yes it can be explosive and can have good runs, but it's not consistent. As Tacosnape stated, nobody seriously runs it because of those reasons.
I was the Stax player Seraph2k lost to and I totally disagree with his assumption that it is a bad matchup for Enchantress. In fact Enchantress was about the second worst matchup for me during testing even without Karmic Justice or Sacred Ground. I simply got lucky that day winning 2 matches against decks I'd never beat without a god draw + mulligans on their side.
I think if you really are concerned about the Stax matchup play Sacred Ground or, after Lorwyn, Gaddock Teeg from the board. They come down turn 2 and stop my Armageddons and Smokestacks. Basically I as a Stax player try to keep you low on mana because I have no way to deal with your Enchantments aside from Smokestack or boarded options. Even if you play Karmic Justice I can still plan ahead, play Armageddon, lose my board but rebuild before you get to 3 lands again. Aura of Silence is even weaker because I play a lot of mana so you have to kill me fast or I will eventually get enough stuff on the board, play Armageddon and win from there.
I hope this helps.
edit: just to clarify the above scenarios a exaggerated. I assumed that you didn't have any more relevant permanents except your hate and lands and I got the needed cards in a reasonable timeframe. I'll stress it again Stax is a good matchup for you :)
"Anybody want some . . . toast?" —Jaya Ballard, Task Mage
Interesting. Thanks for your input as a Stax player. I'm assuming you play Armageddon-Stax right? As much as I would like to play Gaddok Teeg, I'm not sure he's usable in Enchantress. Just because of the fact that he's so easy to remove. Not to mention, ArmaStax uses Powder Kegs and/or Engineered Explosives. That's the easy way out for you guys.
lonelybaritone, since Stax in general is an established deck, what is your opinion on Silverdragon's comment of Sacred Ground being better than Karmic Justice/Aura of Silence vs Stax decks. Most of us have completely cut Sacred Ground from our MD/SB.
As a Stax player, I agree with Silverdragon that the strategy against Enchantress is to hit their mana - simply because Tabernacle and Ghostly Prison effects are useless, and hitting their permanents is difficult since they have lots of them, and with varied CMCs (meaning Keg/Explosives/Chalice is ineffective). Not to mention they can just Replenish all of them in play.
However, I disagree that the matchup is terrible for Stax. Enchantress decks have pretty minimal manabases, so aggressive Armageddons are very good for you, especially since Angels lets you win quickly even through Moat.
My boarding strategy is: -4 Ghostly Prison, -3 Magus of the Tabernacle, +1 Wasteland, +3 Disenchant, +3 Powder Keg.
YOU'RE GIVING ME A TIME MACHINE IN ORDER TO TREAT MY SLEEP DISORDER.
Never mind the fact that:
-Bounce utterly screws up Kavu [Thanks for the free life!].
-Counterspells.
-Removal [I smother your 18/18, thanks for the free life].
-STP on a huge Kavu after a False Cure [OUCH!].
Kavu/Cure crushes most other aggro decks and some combo, but anything with a small amount of creature removal/disruption will kick the crap out of it.
I agree with this. I'd say this is pretty close to an even matchup. Stax wins if it can hit Enchantress's mana quickly. (Chalice for 1, Trinisphere, and Geddon all do this nicely, as does Crucible/Wasteland to a lesser degree) Enchantress wins if it gets out Karmic Justice or if Stax can't slow the mana.
I don't want the whole world to think I don't care anymore - quite the contrary. I have some pretty good evidence (I started to take down notes on every match I play, even casual ones, with Enchantress) that debunks Enchantress' poor Stax match-up, though, to be fair, most of it was against Gardens. I plan on making a thoughtful, long post, and include a new list, rife with new SVG TEK from Lorwyn and the largely unplumbed bowels of my creative mind.
In short: Stay tuned, folks, for after my German test tomorrow (ending at 12:25 EST) I plan on making a post of such epic porportions that my team may end up changing their name to "The Enchantress Syndicate."
The E.P.I.C. Syndicate: I mean, if they play a lullaby for babies they should at least play the Monster Mash when somebody dies.
Who cut Sacred Ground? That's crazy talk. Sacred Ground deals with the deck's biggest Achilles heel.
As Silverdragon said, it neuters Smokestack and Geddon effects, plus Wasteland if they play it.
Seriously, what does Justice do in this match-up that Sacred Ground doesn't?
Early one morning while making the round,
I took a shot of cocaine and I shot my woman down;
I went right home and I went to bed,
I stuck that lovin' .44 beneath my head.
Several decklists in this thread opted to not use Sacred Ground... even in SB. Particularly the ones with Blue splash don't have them and lonelybaritone's latest list doesn't have it either.
Ok, I’m going to paraphrase the quotes so that this post doesn’t reach rig-a-marole status. In order, from about the last time I addressed Enchantress:
-Lignify: I wouldn’t wipe my ass with this. Doesn’t belong in Enchantress, there’s just way better removal out there.
-Eyes of the Wisent: Ridiculous name, maybe worth looking into. Makes me want to like… put moat into my board. Which is a terrible idea, because the list that I’ve been advocating is build to play control game one. Or, rather, the list that I’m working on. Anyway, Eyes seems pretty promising – it’s another sort-of-must-counter. Helps a lot against Thresh, and would make the control game a lot better. Blue-based control. I’ll pick up a couple, but don’t go pick up your foil signed Japanese copies right yet. City actually makes your spells resolve. Eyes gives you a beater that dies to EE real quick. One significant drawback is that it pumps ‘goyf. (Don’t you dare suggest adding ‘goyf to Enchantress)
-Oblivion Ring: I’m drooling. This is the new removal, coupled with an Abyss and Seal of Doom (I’m going to keep one main, and cut the one in the board. Seal is an instant speed answer, which can be necessary). Ob Ring is a HUGE card for Enchantress.
-Hoofprint: I’m against it. It opens you up to wrath effects, and is a second draw-based win condition. Like, Eyes might be a “hey, toss one in to see what it does.” But you’d be dropping Mesa for Hoofprint, and I just don’t see it being worth it. Maybe if you were staying within mono-Gw.
I’m not going to tell you to add more colors or drop more money on cards for a only-slightly competitive deck. But, in my opinion, I’d advocate Parallax Wave over island sanctuary. It has better synergy with Replenish. And gets rid of troublesome creatures. You’re okay to let a fanatic and two matrons through, if you slide out the piledriver. And, yes, I realize that goose beats might be tough on you, but getting rid of any goyfs is better. I’d love to tell you to go drop whatever on a moat, but I won’t. Test, and let me know what’s going down.
You are not, to my knowledge, the first to Top 8 in Germany with Enchantress. There was a guy sometime during like 2006 who got like sixth with a heavy red list, that used the extra draw to draw into its 24 (ballpark) lands, then Seismic Assault his opponent out. I don’t recall if he ran WOW as his alternate win.
List:
-Squee? What’s up with that? I mean, looking back over my just-under-a-hundred games with Enchantress, I can’t think of more than thirty games that I would’ve won with him, and probably fifteen where I did draw him and win. It took me a lot of convincing, but between Adam “Nightmare” Barnello and Bryant “wastedlife” Cook finally got me to drop it. I’ve actually hard-casted him a couple times, and that’s pretty weak. Just play better cards, in my opinion. I don’t want to tell you your list sucks, but it seems kind of quirky.
-Dragon? Same thing – I can see him as a possible beater, and he justifies your inclusion of a Plateau (I envy your ability to cut enchantments for that twenty-first land), but I’d rather play a better win or something, myself. I guess you’ve got evidence that he works, though.
-One Hidden Gibbons in the board? Why not a playset? Or none? I asked Spatula about that, and he said that it’s really only worth it on turn one. Modifying your opponent’s play is pretty sweet, but Landstill has an ass-load of options to deal with a vanilla 4/4.
Matches:
-Round 1: This is where Spiritual Focus and Sacred Ground are hot tech. I haven’t played them because a relative lack of Armageddons, Poxs (Poxen?) Sink Holes, and Hymns. Try resolving an Enchantress effect and landing a Spreading Algae on a swamp. Not only does it hurt their mana, but it also comes back if they drop a dystopia or something. Also hot Spatula Tech.
-Round 2: Burn is freaking difficult for me. Having Squee makes it more playable, but I just couldn’t land an Enchantress effect while under Confinement to, y’know, keep Confinement.
-Round 3: Inexcusable. You run a 59-permenant deck with two sorceries that return every relevant card in your ‘yard to play. Even without sacred ground you should be able to beat prison decks. Against decks without a clock you have so many options; Sylvan Library makes it easy to fill your hand before they actually find and beat with a factory.
-Round 4: Thresh is a good match-up, generally. Two moats makes it even better.
-Round 5: I’m really unfamiliar with AyBaseruption. From my understanding, it’s like fish, but with Finkles. Right? Sounds like you should have a pretty decent match-up. Y’know, on account of how Fish plays islands, and you, um, have choke?
Karmic Justice only trades with things Destroyed, not Sacrificed. It’s a two-of in the board, but since it still doesn’t keep your shit out there, you need other stuff to keep your Enchantments alive. Justice beats ‘geddon, Pernicious Deed, and Wasteland. Justice twiddles its fingers to Pox and Smokestack.
I find it difficult to address this with a straight face. I’m not trying to be glib, either. A deck that needs to hit a 4-of creature without haste, and relies on giving its opponent a shit-ton of life, then beating down, can give me a bad match-up all day. I’d expect this to be in the 0-x bracket at any actual (read: non-local) Legacy tournament. Slide has a better game against the rest of the meta.
In short, I won’t worry about match-ups with ridiculous decks. Anyone want Doug Lin (sp?) to write his next article about the Nourishing Lich-Turbo Obliterate match? Don’t worry about obscure decks, and how they do against other, only slightly less obscure decks. Go win a Dual Land Draft with Kavu Cure, and then I’ll write a primer about its match against Enchantress.
Unless you’re running Braids Stax, Stax shouldn’t be a big deal for Enchantress. I’ll agree that a first, second, or (dare I say) even third turn Trinisphere is pretty nasty for Enchantress. ‘Specially if the Stax player is on the play. But it certainly isn’t a bad match. I’d ball park it at about, uh… 50-50, depending on the skill of both players, and draws involved. I know that the Eternal Garden match is almost a joke – though they play both the dreaded 3sphere and Smokestack, Colin (he’s my only opponent on whom I have evidence) always just gets bad draws and usually scoops to Leyline (pre-board).
I don’t have a list I want to show off right now – I’m working on a post Lorwyn disaster that’s five-color, with a 63 card deck and an 18 card board. Maybe a 19 card board. I’ve sort of lost track. Blue just offers such good answers to control. And white’s necessary, because, it is. Green’s a given, and Black is there for removal. And Red’s the “I win when I resolve Words of War” color. So, five colors it is. I’ll get back to you folks when I have some actual testing done.
Last edited by Zach Tartell; 10-01-2007 at 03:35 PM.
I said it's only useful turn 1(on the play, really).
It's still not worth it. Especially in the age of Goyf. Why do they care about a 4/4 that can be played around?
Early one morning while making the round,
I took a shot of cocaine and I shot my woman down;
I went right home and I went to bed,
I stuck that lovin' .44 beneath my head.
That is true, but you can fix the Burn matchup by adding this little gem:
http://magiccards.info/od/en/1.html
Or you could just run Circle of Protection: Red. Imagine that.
LB: Blue splash seems interesting. I'm curious as to which control answers you're running, though. I can't help but think that Mystic Remora (Why does nobody run that card anymore?) might be godly in the right matchups, especially due to insane synergy with Replenish, but I've mostly felt like by running the extra two Replenishes in board that I get a semi-decent control match.
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